brotherofJared
Well-known member
it is. It's pure imagination.
God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.
- Thread starter Markk
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Richard7
Well-known member
He has great command at speculation, his own opinion and ramped conjecture.... what and who are we to believe if he can't even give us the names of these so called first hand witnesses... hmmm. Very telling when one seems prone to making it up or using second and third hand witness or enemies of the Church...I believe I called it what it was: anti-Mormon propaganda.
There's no evidence of that either. You have no idea if it was painful or not (probably wasn't) nor do you have any idea how often it happened, if ever. There is no proof that he had sex with any woman other than Emma.
All a bunch of hooey.
Have you seen the houses they lived in? Have you seen the blocks they lived on?
Where is your proof that either of those positions was self-appointed? BTW, John C Bennett was the first mayor of Nauvoo and he wasn't appointed either.
But again, what is your evidence that his time away from his family was because God commanded him to take some 30 wives? There is a lot of things that live only in your head, but I can't find any support of any of it. This is all you have: He had 30+ wives. All the rest of it seems to be born out it, including the "perfect hair".
Well, you can sincerely believe what ever you like, but you can also be sincerely wrong, and can I…but in dealing with absolutes…we can both be wrong but we both cannot be right…and the same thing gose with JS and his teachings…rather his teaching are either all tur, or all wrong, IMO, you can’t just pitch a choose what works best for you.
Fair enough, I look forward to your OP. But ironically Mormonism did remove the middle man, our mediator Jesus Christ…it added works that piles on guilt for the need to be “worthy” to be one a God. Jesus said my yoke is easy, which for me is Grace and Grace alone.
But I look forward to you upcoming post
Thanks
Aaron32
Well-known member
I replied to this by creating a new thread. You can challenge and prove its contrary to Mormon standards, it's unbiblical, or it's otherwise unsound reasoning.
Aaron32
Well-known member
I disagree. We are saved by grace alone through faith. All that's required for salvation is to accept Jesus Christ and be converted to his gospel. Conversion being "the mighty change of heart". (See Alma 5)
See also D&C 76:71-80
Keeping mind, "Salvation" is different from "exaltation". Terrestrial Glory is essentially "salvation", which I think is the most that can generally be expected in our current telestial state.
That "glory" is "intelligence" which is also "light and truth". (D&C 93:36)
D&C 130
18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.
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dberrie2020
Super Member
And this is the evidence of that, IE--
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
Such as this?
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
So--could you explain this?
2 Thessalonians 1:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
1 Timothy 5:18--King James Version (KJV)
18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
Colossians 1:10--King James Version (KJV)
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
This indeed lends to my OP. The Bible is clear that Christ is our eternal mediator. However, you just conceded this was not true, and replaced Christ as our Mediator between God and man, with the LDS church. In other words, salvation cannot be by Christ alone...but only through the LDS church, and men holding some sort of PH power and authority, that replaced Christs authority to save.
But as I have written many times here, God does not really matter in LDS theology in regard to true salvation for the saint...which is eternal life or "becoming a God!" Remember "eternal life" always means becoming a God or Goddess" in LDS theology, this is also "exaltation."
What matters above all is "The survival of the Church!!!"
In order to obtain "Eternal Life"(and by default Godhood) as you wrote, and implied above, the mediator, or middleman is not Christ, but the LDS Church in Mormon thought and theology.
You obviously did not think that out, or even realize it DB, you wrote it because that is what the church instills in their members. It is a key component to the standard testimony that is taught to the children as soon and they can learn. "I know the church is true, and I know Joesph Smith is a true Prophet of God. "
Simply put DB... you certainly were spot on in your response once again, on how the church trains the minds of their members that they can through the church can become a God or Goddess.
Well, that is just not what the church teaches.
Salvation (universal) is indeed different than exaltation or eternal life (personal salvation). Th eformer is not by faith, but force on everyone born into this world...and provide by the atonement, see the 2nd AoF and creed..." We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."
Personal Salvation, or "eternal life"....is conditional, as the 3rd article of faith... "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
Atheists are saved by the atonement according to LDS theology, faith has nothing to do with it, it is forces on all mankind.
" Redemption from the Fall Universal and Unconditional.—" We believe that through the sufferings, death, and atonement of Jesus Christ all mankind, without one exception, are to be completely and fully redeemed, both body and spirit, from the endless banishment and curse to which they were consigned by Adam's transgression; and that this universal salvation and redemption of the whole human family from the endless penalty
of the original sin, is effected without any conditions whatever on their part; that is, they are not required to believe or repent, or be baptized, or do anything else, in order to be redeemed from that penalty; for whether they believe or disbelieve; whether they repent or remain impenitent, whether they are baptized or unbaptized, whether they keep the commandments or break them, whether they are righteous or unrighteous, it will make no difference in relation to their redemption, both soul and body, from the penalty of Adam's transgression. The most righteous man that ever lived on the earth, and the most wicked wretch of the whole human family, were both placed under the same curse without any transgression or agency of their own, and they both alike will be redeemed from that curse, without any agency or conditions on their part."— Apostle Orson Pratt in Remarkable Visions. Talmage, James E.. The Articles of Faith (Annotated - LDS) (James E. Talmage Series Book 1) (p. 376). Latter-day Strengths. Kindle Edition.
Note: Pratt wrote that many has no free agency in this matter and faith is not required...I underlined his points.
Aaron32
Well-known member
If it's what the Church teaches, please find Articles of Faith by Talmage in the gospel library. You won't find it. Sure, it may have been the source of yesteryear but now we must extend beyond those decisions. If what you say is true, it just located in a reference no longer approved, then you can find other Church sources that say the same thing so we can analyze the belief of "universal salvation" in context.
I'll help you out. Oaks provided six definitions of the term "salvation" here. I missed the credential where you have the authority to pick a singular definition, and declare all members of my Church must conform to your declaration, and anything else is "not what the Church teaches".Please do try and address the evidence I present as wrong or out of context.
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Well, I am quoting two apostles…I am not sure how all of a sudden this is not true according to LDS theology, especially given it compliments the 2nd and 3rd articles of faith. This what my grandparents, my parents, and my siblings and I were taught. I can guarantee you Oaks also believes this. he is basically teaching on how the termed saved can be used in the church, but Universal and personal salvations are always the baselines
In fact Oaks taught in the link you provided…”
First, all mortals have been saved from the permanence of death through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).
As to salvation from sin and the consequences of sin, our answer to the question of whether or not we have been saved is “yes, but with conditions.” Our third article of faith declares our belief:
“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (A of F 1:3).
The former is universal salvation, the latter, personal salvation.
What you linked is a message in talk form. In regards to both personal and universal salvation in th talk…Oaks taught…this perfectly sums up what Both Pratt and Talmage belived and taught…as did other like JFS…who even expounded on it in greater detail in his 3 vol set…Doctrines of Salvation.
” For Latter-day Saints, being “saved” can also mean being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come (see 1 Cor. 15:40–42). Just as the Resurrection is universal, we affirm that every person who ever lived upon the face of the earth—except for a very few—is assured of salvation in this sense. As we read in modern revelation:
“And this is the gospel, the glad tidings …
“That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
“That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
“Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands,except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him” (D&C 76:40–43; emphasis added).
I am simply telling you what all GA’s have taught and believed post BY…that I know of…I open to one that teaches what yo asserted. Please give me a link…Oaks agrees with Talmage.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
LOL, let that imagination run wild
I found this with a quick search of the library…it is the exact quote I pasted from Talmage….that you said I would not find in regards to the teaching.
Appendix: Orson Pratt, A[n] Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions, 1840, Page 25
der the curse and penalty of that transgression, which consigned them to an eternal banishment from ...
www.josephsmithpapers.org
I also found this “Because of his atoning sacrifice, all men will be raised in immortality. They will come forth from the grave and live forever as resurrected beings. But only those who believe and obey the fullness of his laws shall be raised both in immortality and unto eternal life. And one of the great purposes of the true church is to teach men what they must do after baptism to gain the full blessings of the gospel.”
Which is describing the Universal salvation as in AoF #2…and the Personal salvation as described in #3.
Aaron, Universal and Personal salvation is one of the most basic teachings in the church, and if there is a doubt that it is no longer a teaching, here is President Nelson teaching at the 2008 GC….
“To be saved—or to gain salvation—means to be saved from physical and spiritual death. Because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death. People may also be saved from individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him.
To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm. These blessings can come to us after we leave this frail and mortal existence. The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now.”
I hope this helps
Aaron32
Well-known member
Universal salvation of physical death. Yes. We agree.
Yes. Salvation which is based on the condition of faith in Jesus Christ. Seems pretty biblical to me.
You told me that what I said, the difference between salvation and exaltation, is not what the Church teaches - even though it's found in the standard works.
Aaron32
Well-known member
Yep. So I guess we're in agreement. There's resurrection for all, there's personal salvation, having faith in Jesus Christ, and there's exaltation obeying all the laws of the restored gospel. 🤷 I don't know why you said I was wrong earlier.I found this with a quick search of the library…it is the exact quote I pasted from Talmage….that you said I would not find in regards to the teaching.
Appendix: Orson Pratt, A[n] Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions, 1840, Page 25
der the curse and penalty of that transgression, which consigned them to an eternal banishment from ...
I also found this “Because of his atoning sacrifice, all men will be raised in immortality. They will come forth from the grave and live forever as resurrected beings. But only those who believe and obey the fullness of his laws shall be raised both in immortality and unto eternal life. And one of the great purposes of the true church is to teach men what they must do after baptism to gain the full blessings of the gospel.”
Which is describing the Universal salvation as in AoF #2…and the Personal salvation as described in #3.
Aaron, Universal and Personal salvation is one of the most basic teachings in the church, and if there is a doubt that it is no longer a teaching, here is President Nelson teaching at the 2008 GC….
“To be saved—or to gain salvation—means to be saved from physical and spiritual death. Because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death. People may also be saved from individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him.
To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm. These blessings can come to us after we leave this frail and mortal existence. The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now.”
I hope this helps
There is general or universal salvation, which is per the 2nd AoF. then there is exaltation or eternal life, which begins with faith in Jesus Christ and merited works, which is per the 3rd AoF.
You wrote below " All that's required for salvation is to accept Jesus Christ and be converted to his gospel. Conversion being "the mighty change of heart". " Which is just not the case according to LDS theology...read the 3rd AoF...along with faiths is Obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel.
Above you imply three salvations...which is nowhere to be found in your creed.
2.We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. (Universal salvation...mine)
3.We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (Personal Salvation...mine)
This is what you wrote...
"I disagree. We are saved by grace alone through faith. All that's required for salvation is to accept Jesus Christ and be converted to his gospel. Conversion being "the mighty change of heart". (See Alma 5)
See also D&C 76:71-80
Keeping mind, "Salvation" is different from "exaltation". Terrestrial Glory is essentially "salvation", which I think is the most that can generally be expected in our current telestial state.
That "glory" is "intelligence" which is also "light and truth". (D&C 93:36)
D&C 130
18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."
Faith is just the first principle of the gospel according to the creed...
3. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You also have to. "
2.We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
There is no room for faith alone in a LDS construct, which you want to champion.
Richard7
Well-known member
But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3:12
Richard7
Well-known member
It's what comes after faith... Markk. Faith of course is the first Principle of the Gospel, Christians stop there...
Aaron32
Well-known member
That's ok. See article of faith # 9.
AoF # 2 is to simply refute the Catholic belief of punishment for original sin
To Explain Infant Baptism You Must Explain Original Sin
The Church’s teaching on infant baptism flows from the Church’s teachings on original sin and the sacrament of baptism. Click here for an explanation.
In the words of a Friend magazine article: "To transgress means to break a law or commandment. In the Garden of Eden, God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but they ate it anyway. We are each responsible for our own decisions. We can’t be punished for someone else’s sins."
AoF # 3 is talking about spiritual salvation, overcoming spiritual death.
The Wentworth Letter was dated March 1842. Teaching of Celestial Glory and the clarity of concepts of exaltation were just starting in Section 76, written in February 1842, a month earlier. So it would be natural that the details of what's required for exaltation would not be included in the Wentworth Letter.
Yes. Still not proven wrong. Per President Nelson "In God’s eternal plan, salvation is an individual matter; exaltation is a family matter."
Salvation and Exaltation
In God’s eternal plan, salvation is an individual matter; exaltation is a family matter.
www.churchofjesuschrist.org
If Salvation and Exaltation are one in the same. How do you explain D&C 132:17
"17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever."
How does one be saved, without exaltation? I've already given my answer. That you claim the church doesn't teach. What say you?