God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.

[Markk]

You and I are usually on the same page, but I respectively disagree that JS used the Urim and Thummim for money digging.

What did he use for money digging?

 

[dberrie2020]

Wow...I genuinely appreciate this post, I may not agree with it, but I appreciate the tone.

Well, Markk--if you would drop your extremism--you might receive more of that tone.

I looked for the citation for the Broome County CF, without luck.

Is this your opinion, or do you have a citation? It sounds like something similar to what Bushman wrote, but I will try to find it. What cf would you use to support your view; it is an interesting view.

It's my personal view--it seems to be shared by some, from what I read. For sure--Joseph Smith progressed from one point of receiving revelation, to another point--where the props were replaced by his own mind.

For me--that seems to be the potential for all men--where we not only receive the medium to revelation--but become the medium of revelation from God.

My opinion is, and I believe a full study of Joseph and money digging shows that the seer stone was a prop or tool for his trade as a money digger. And, that money digging and the "mechanics" of it, not only formed the BoM, but also much of Mormonism.

There is the extremism. I have no idea how you relate such things to your conclusions.

So--did Joseph Smith use the Urim and Thummim for things which they were not designed for? I believe so. The early period might well be punctuated with those kinds of things--as is endemic to human nature. I believe God allowed it follow it's course, and once Joseph Smith saw, and was convinced--it led to unfruitful results--Joseph Smith repented, and the misuse of those things God had given him fell dormant, and Joseph Smith then was prepared for the translation. That makes perfect sense to me--and the course you and I follow also--as to the pattern.

There was a period after the 1826 arrest--where we find the stories of Joseph Smith's use of the Urim and Thummim for purposes other than God's will--ceased, or became obscure, as to the history. Joseph Smith learned an invaluable lesson on that arrest.

I find nothing in all those stories which isn't compatible with human nature. Joseph Smith was a boy wanting to prove his claim--and reached far beyond what God had warned him about. That is true for most all of us.

I also believe the stories were greatly exaggerated by some--so it's hard to separate out the truth from fiction.

This is the truth--he brought forth the Book of Mormon, after Joseph Smith was prepared for that purpose.

What followed was also truly amazing:

SECTION 110

Visions manifested to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery in the temple at Kirtland, Ohio, April 3, 1836. The occasion was that of a Sabbath day meeting. Joseph Smiths history states: In the afternoon, I assisted the other Presidents in distributing the Lords Supper to the Church, receiving it from the Twelve, whose privilege it was to officiate at the sacred desk this day. After having performed this service to my brethren, I retired to the pulpit, the veils being dropped, and bowed myself, with Oliver Cowdery, in solemn and silent prayer. After rising from prayer, the following vision was opened to both of us.


D&C 110
1 "The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is replete with those kings of events--as is God's church throughout the history of mankind.

 

[dberrie2020]

What did he use for money digging?

While employed by Josaih Stohl--probably a pick and shovel.

 

[Markk]

Well, Markk--if you would drop your extremism--you might receive more of that tone.

Thats a cop out, I could say the same of you. I am not extreme at all; more and more LDS hold the same view as I do on this subject. It is hardly being extreme to tie Josephs worldview and practices of money digging and all that went with it, into the inception of Mormonism. The younger generations see it, and want answers on how to deal with it, but when they get the denials, and the running away from historical facts, that is where the Faith crisis's start. My conversation with Ralf is a perfect example and when they have sites like the JS Foundation denying what is obviously true...does not help the church. Which is what Bushman so rightly said.

 

[Markk]

It's my personal view--it seems to be shared by some, from what I read. For sure--Joseph Smith progressed from one point of receiving revelation, to another point--where the props were replaced by his own mind.

For me--that seems to be the potential for all men--where we not only receive the medium to revelation--but become the medium of revelation from God.

I believe all his writing and revelation came 100% from his mind...what changed is how he portrayed his receiving it from the folks. The Money Digging style, the seer stone, did not go well with non-Mormon's. His reputation as a Money Digger is undeniable, and the term is not a favorable one. After his conviction for glass looking, he changed being so open about his ties to the occult and money digging, but inside it was and is still there and the footprint of that is all deep into LDS history and teachings. He also started to bring a Masonic flavor into to the church and his revelations, especially in regard to the Temple ceremonies and endowments.

Do you receive revelations from God, like JS did? That mindset is one that is common in the church and taught...it is interesting for sure and deserves a separate thread.

 

[Markk]

Please show me the story about the Chase's... where did you get it... your very lacking in showing your sources and I often have to wonder why. Do you have a witness that you can point too or just come off site anti-mormon nonsense

There are multiple sources, both anti and non anti...we will get there. We have plenty of time.

Chuckle, what above proves the point of a seer stone?

No, it shows a clear influence of Money Digging and Glass Looking in the BoM story. The seer stone is just part of the story.

Joseph Smith - History... what is the point of the reference to any of the above you argued... I read it all as I had in the past, what connection are you trying to make Markk.???? Nothing about he would see in his seer stone. Then you claim he is sustained as a seer which complements (brings to perfection ) the money digging theme... you're joking of course... my goodness how low have you stopped to revise Joseph Smiths History..

Well, you need to first understand what the term Money Digging means and implies, and the stories that go with its history...I guess I need to back track a bit. Money Digging is not just a term, but a profession, a common one in his day...so common that official had to make laws to outlaw it's practice.

I have to run to work, but I will give a more in-depth description of "Money Digging" and why JS was called..." Joe Smith the money digger."

 

[Richard7]

What did he use for money digging?

You tell me, and along with it a first hand account...and any account by his enemies will be highly suspect

 

[Richard7]

You tell me, and along with it a first hand account...hopefully not a account by his enemies... they of course would be suspect... chuckle.

 

[Richard7]

There are multiple sources, both anti and non anti...we will get there. We have plenty of time.

No, it shows a clear influence of Money Digging and Glass Looking in the BoM story. The seer stone is just part of the story.

Well, you need to first understand what the term Money Digging means and implies, and the stories that go with its history...I guess I need to back track a bit. Money Digging is not just a term, but a profession, a common one in his day...so common that official had to make laws to outlaw it's practice.

I have to run to work, but I will give a more in-depth description of "Money Digging" and why JS was called..." Joe Smith the money digger."

Eagerly waiting for first hand accounts by people who knew him and not his enemies which he had plenty of and are noted below.
Richard Bushman is not a enemy, but more a fool who involved in his research many of those below.

1. Known Enemies of Jospeh Smith:
2. Willard Chase, Affidavit (1833), and Peter Ingersoll, Affidavit (1833), in MoU 238-9; Tucker, Origin, 19; Abel Chase Interview (1881), and John Stafford, Interview (1881), in EMD, 2:85, 106, 121; Caroline Rockwell Smith, Statement (1885), in EMD, 2:199; BioS, 102, 109. For another Palmyra seer stone, see Wayne Sentinel, Dec. 27, 1825
3. Josiah Stowell. Deacon Isaiah Stowell, David Whitmer, Willard Chase and Sally Chase, Hurlbut and Fawn Brodie,

 

[dberrie2020]

I believe all his writing and revelation came 100% from his mind...

That's your choice--but it does nothing to allay the testimonies of those who witnessed the translation process first hand. They had a different story.

The Money Digging style, the seer stone, did not go well with non-Mormon's.

It must have gone well with them--they are the ones who made the stories up, for the main.

His reputation as a Money Digger is undeniable,

As an employee of Josiah Stohl--yes. But that is a third party participant. Joseph was paid for his services with the pick and shovel. There is nothing dishonorable about that. Joseph was an employee of a man who wanted to dig for treasures. There are large amounts of men today who work in mines and digging precious metals and gems--and no one even moves an eyelid to that. It's an honorable profession.

The rest of the stories, for the main--seem to be unsubstantiated, or exaggerated--although there were two trials in 1830 which accused Joseph Smith of fraud in Josiah Stohl's mining adventure--which he was acquitted. There is ample evidence of that those trials.

The 1826 trial is till disputed, as to the verdict or punishment.

 

[Markk]

Eagerly waiting for first hand accounts by people who knew him and not his enemies which he had plenty of and are noted below.
Richard Bushman is not a enemy, but more a fool who involved in his research many of those below.

1. Known Enemies of Jospeh Smith:
2. Willard Chase, Affidavit (1833), and Peter Ingersoll, Affidavit (1833), in MoU 238-9; Tucker, Origin, 19; Abel Chase Interview (1881), and John Stafford, Interview (1881), in EMD, 2:85, 106, 121; Caroline Rockwell Smith, Statement (1885), in EMD, 2:199; BioS, 102, 109. For another Palmyra seer stone, see Wayne Sentinel, Dec. 27, 1825
3. Josiah Stowell. Deacon Isaiah Stowell, David Whitmer, Willard Chase and Sally Chase, Hurlbut and Fawn Brodie,

Do you know that Willard and sally Chase were neighbors, and that Jospeh and other had a money digging company. And that many, including sally and Willard, like Joseph had peep stones also. There was also a struggle between them for the peep stone that Joseph translated the BoM in his hat with.

You say Stowell Is an enemy because he had an agreement on JS word, that Joseph would find a silver mind with his peep stone,the very same one that he used to translate the BoM,, and which was later called the Urim and Thummin?

Here is the agreement at LDS .org

Appendix 1: Agreement of Josiah Stowell and Others, 1 November 1825, Page 4

ARTICLES OF AGREEMENT.We, the undersigned, do firmly agree, & by these presents bind ourselves, to f...

www.josephsmithpapers.org

Stowell and Emma’s father bankrolled the dig, with nothing in return…are you saying they should be happy with Joseph?

I am warning you, you are not emotionally ready for where this is going to go. You might want to drop out of the conversation while You can.

 

[brotherofJared]

Whoops!

”Nevertheless, the scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process. Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates. Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.The process as described brings to mind a passage from the Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...cs-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng


Chuckle.
1). scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process.
2). Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone)
3). many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer
stone in a hat.
4). Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.

Are you kidding me Markk, you have noting but admitted different accounts. You have zero, nada,
zippo

I know, right? It's like he reads only what he wants to see.

 

[brotherofJared]

Ralf…the GA admit he used the stone it is no longer and issue.

There never was an issue.

he used different methods

And so? So what?

Straggly enough I was taught that Joesph would place the plates on the table, and there would be a curtain between he an dthe translator, and then he would translate

Strangely enough, we still teach that because that also happened.

the plates are always be said to be wrapped in a towel.

They were wrapped in a towel.

Apparently, there was a nail in the ceiling of the home, and someone made up the story that there must have been a curtain there.

I don't see what the issue is here. No one saw the plates until the witnesses were called. The idea is that the plates where hidden from view during the entire time Joseph translated them. Of course, they behind a curtain. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. At some point, I'm sure they were divided, translator and scribe, by a curtain, nail in the ceiling or not. That's a relatively insignificant detail to build a case on.

Maybe you can give me the correct ways the BoM was translated…and cite your source.

He already did. Focus.

This all again point to Elder Bushman’s statement that the church teaches a false narrative of LDS history

I disagree. They never have taught a "false narrative" that has never been Bushman's argument. His argument and the point illustrated by the introduction to the essays, is that there is a lot of history that the church hasn't made available and so they are now doing that, hence the essays. We still are t teaching everything. It's available. We don't have to teach it. if it's not important and not necessary for salvation then we are wasting the limited time we have to teach the doctrine. A stone in a hat simply is not a big deal. Read the book. See if you can produce anything like it with your face in a hat, never mind the stone.

 

[brotherofJared]

Sorry. "Faith Alone" is a forbidden topic on this board now...thanks a lot.

True faith leads to works, but it's not the works that save us. I'm not sure why that's hard for you to grasp...but whatev.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up.

 

[brotherofJared]

Noted: IYO, one of the lead historians of the Joseph Smith Papers, a patriarch, and paid church employee...a man that knows many of the GA's at a personal level, is not to be trusted.

Interesting how you transfered a statement made about the sources he used as being the reason for distrusting his WORK is now about we can't trust the individual. Speaking with a forked tongue takes on new meaning with your posts. One wonders how you don't constantly run amuck... Oh, wait.. you do.

What exactly did he revise?

History. And with good results it appears, even if he used bad sources.

I offered you to go through Rough Stone Rolling...if you are going to throw the man under the bus, at least address the different narratives he is revising

Why?

 

[brotherofJared]

What did he use for money digging?

Something besides a urim and thummim.

 

[brotherofJared]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is replete with those kings of events--as is God's church throughout the history of mankind.

As is history replete with failures as prophets who learned invaluable lessons along the way. Moses was no choir boy. He murdered someone.

 

[brotherofJared]

I am not extreme at all;

Denial is the name of a river in Egypt.

 

[brotherofJared]

more LDS hold the same view as I do on this subject

LOL

It is hardly being extreme to tie Josephs worldview and practices of money digging and all that went with it, into the inception of Mormonism.

That's being extreme. Your support for that conclusion is what? Your personal opinion. Did you take a vote of all Mormons or just 51% of them?

The younger generations see it,

Again, your global vision is godly. You don't know what the younger generation sees. You assume because some of them ask tough questions that that is one of them? I don't think any youth care one bit that Joseph participated in treasure hunting nor do they care how he did it. These are you concerns not everyone's even though you seem to think that you have your finger on the pulse.

that is where the Faith crisis's start

I don't think so, but since you do, I am probably wrong. 🙄

Faith crisis starts with bad leaders. The youth expect a certain level of commitment. If they can't get it here, then where do they get it

 

[Markk]

Interesting how you transfered a statement made about the sources he used as being the reason for distrusting his WORK is now about we can't trust the individual. Speaking with a forked tongue takes on new meaning with your posts. One wonders how you don't constantly run amuck... Oh, wait.. you do.

LOL who is "we?" I was specifically talking to Ralf, in whom he has basically called Bushman a liar and a fool. What is your opinion of Elder Bushman, if you are going to speak for Ralf, then at least state your opinion of Bushman?

I disagree. They never have taught a "false narrative" that has never been Bushman's argument. His argument and the point illustrated by the introduction to the essays, is that there is a lot of history that the church hasn't made available and so they are now doing that, hence the essays. We still are t teaching everything. It's available. We don't have to teach it. if it's not important and not necessary for salvation then we are wasting the limited time we have to teach the doctrine. A stone in a hat simply is not a big deal. Read the book. See if you can produce anything like it with your face in a hat, never mind the stone.

It is exactly his argument...he is on record in a video of saying exactly that, that the LDS church is teaching a false narrative. (bold mine)

Bushman said: I think for the Church to remain strong it has to reconstruct its narrative. The dominant narrative is not true. It can’t be sustained. The Church has to absorb all this new information or it will be on very shaky grounds, and that’s what it’s trying to do. And they’ll be a strain for a lot of people, older people especially. But I think it has to change. Elder Packer had the sense of “protecting the little people.” He felt like the scholars were an enemy to his faith, and that of the grandmothers living in Sanpete County. That was a very lovely pastoral image. But the price of protecting the grandmothers was the loss of the grandsons. They got a story that didn’t work. So we’ve just had to change our narrative.

As far as the stone/s in the hat not being an issue, we it is...ralf is having a melt down and faith crisis right before our eyes. He is denying the words of the prophet, and the GA's. His source of history is a very weak website that relies on amazon book reviews for proof texts for thier research. So BoJ, yes, it is a big deal for many people.