God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.

[Richard7]

Do you know that Willard and sally Chase were neighbors, and that Jospeh and other had a money digging company. And that many, including sally and Willard, like Joseph had peep stones also. There was also a struggle between them for the peep stone that Joseph translated the BoM in his hat with.

Need source to validate... more deflection.

You say Stowell Is an enemy because he had an agreement on JS word, that Joseph would find a silver mind with his peep stone,the very same one that he used to translate the BoM,, and which was later called the Urim and Thummin?

Sorry, not Josiah but Isaiah Stowell was.... I don't know why I listed Josiah, but I will admit when I make a mistake.

Here is the agreement at LDS .org

Appendix 1: Agreement of Josiah Stowell and Others, 1 November 1825, Page 4

ARTICLES OF AGREEMENT.We, the undersigned, do firmly agree, & by these presents bind ourselves, to f...

www.josephsmithpapers.org

Stowell and Emma’s father bankrolled the dig, with nothing in return…are you saying they should be happy with Joseph?

He defended JS at the Trial Hearing.

I am warning you, you are not emotionally ready for where this is going to go. You might want to drop out of the conversation while You can.

I can find you URL, it does not come up.... try again Markk, seems fishy to me.

 

[Markk]

Need source to validate... more deflection.

Ralf, you said you read Rough Stone Rolling? And just about every anti book there is, and you don't know who the Chase's are?

Willard Chase, one of the Smiths’ neighbors and a friend of Joseph’s, found one of the stones. Chase let Joseph take the stone home, but as soon as it became known “what wonders he could discover by looking in it,” Chase wanted it back. As late as 1830, Chase was still trying to get his hands on the stone. His younger brother Abel later told an interviewer that their sister Sally had a stone too. A nearby physician, John Stafford, reported that “the neighbors used to claim Sally Chase could look at a stone she had, and see money. Willard Chase used to dig when she found where the money was.” After Joseph obtained the plates, Willard Chase led the group that searched the Smiths’ house, guided by Sally Chase and a “green
glass, through which she could see many very wonderful things.” 80

Bushman, Richard Lyman. Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (p. 49). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Sorry, not Josiah but Isaiah Stowell was.... I don't know why I listed Josiah, but I will admit when I make a mistake.

Wrong again, Isaiah Stowell and Josiah Stowell are the same person. He was a devout Mormon and is called another witness to the BoM. He also testified Joseph could find treasures with his peep stone. But you called him and enemy of Joseph.

He defended JS at the Trial Hearing.

Yes, and you said he was a known enemy of Joseph Smith, when you called Bushman a fool.

I can find you URL, it does not come up.... try again Markk, seems fishy to me.

???

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, you said you read Rough Stone Rolling? And just about every anti book there is, and you don't know who the Chase's are?

That's right, I read the Book like I already stated years ago when I was still in San Diego, if you remember everything you read, well wow and congratulations. You read the BOM and now you suggest you can remember everything in the BOM? I'm impressed and this is not a gotcha moment for you either good buddy.

Willard Chase, one of the Smiths’ neighbors and a friend of Joseph’s, found one of the stones. Chase let Joseph take the stone home, but as soon as it became known “what wonders he could discover by looking in it,” Chase wanted it back. As late as 1830, Chase was still trying to get his hands on the stone. His younger brother Abel later told an interviewer that their sister Sally had a stone too. A nearby physician, John Stafford, reported that “the neighbors used to claim Sally Chase could look at a stone she had, and see money. Willard Chase used to dig when she found where the money was.” After Joseph obtained the plates, Willard Chase led the group that searched the Smiths’ house, guided by Sally Chase and a “green
glass, through which she could see many very wonderful things.” 80

Willard Chase, my goodness the depths you go to in finding a honest witness, chuckle. So this same person who wrote the following is you go to source?

Chase claimed that the Prophet's father told him that certain "magical" practices had to be performed in order for Joseph to obtain the plates.

• Claimed that Joseph Smith, Sr. told him that Joseph Jr. removed the plates from the stone box, set them on the ground, and that they went back into the stone box on their own.
• Claimed that Joseph Smith, Sr. told him that Joseph Jr. was required to wear certain clothes and perform certain actions in order to obtain the plates.
• Claimed that Joseph Smith, Sr. told him that the angel Moroni appeared in the form of a toad.

Oh my! good buddy, what a imagination Chase seems to have, once a liar and then you will believe everthing else he states. Good for you Markk, keep the enemies of JS as you go to sources... chuckle.
Mark Ashurst-McGee, "Moroni as Angel and as Treasure Guardian

Wrong again, Isaiah Stowell and Josiah Stowell are the same person. He was a devout Mormon and is called another witness to the BoM. He also testified Joseph could find treasures with his peep stone. But you called him and enemy of Joseph.

Yep I did, thx for the correction, always willing to admit my mistakes Markk, hoping you will do the same.

Yes, and you said he was a known enemy of Joseph Smith, when you called Bushman a fool.

???

Not exactly in context good buddy, but yes Bushman is a blockhead for allowing his ego to trash JS and quote enemies of the church and malcontent neighbors. ​

 

[Markk]

That's right, I read the Book like I already stated years ago when I was still in San Diego, if you remember everything you read, well wow and congratulations. You read the BOM and now you suggest you can remember everything in the BOM? I'm impressed and this is not a gotcha moment for you either good buddy.

Then how did you not know about the Chases being friend with Joseph

Willard Chase, my goodness the depths you go to in finding a honest witness, chuckle. So this same person who wrote the following is you go to source?

Chase claimed that the Prophet's father told him that certain "magical" practices had to be performed in order for Joseph to obtain the plates.

• Claimed that Joseph Smith, Sr. told him that Joseph Jr. removed the plates from the stone box, set them on the ground, and that they went back into the stone box on their own.
• Claimed that Joseph Smith, Sr. told him that Joseph Jr. was required to wear certain clothes and perform certain actions in order to obtain the plates.
• Claimed that Joseph Smith, Sr. told him that the angel Moroni appeared in the form of a toad.

Kind of...yes, and they were friends and neighbors, at least until Joseph stole the peep stone, he translated the BoM with. They were neighbors ralf and worked together. There are many versions of Smith getting the plates, and we will get to all these when we get into the folk magic Joe practiced...

Not exactly in context good buddy, but yes Bushman is a blockhead for allowing his ego to trash JS and quote enemies of the church and malcontent neighbors.

Again, you expect a historian and author...to lie and be dishonest, even by omission, to protect JS.

 

[Richard7]

Then how did you not know about the Chases being friend with Joseph


Kind of...yes, and they were friends and neighbors, at least until Joseph stole the peep stone, he translated the BoM with. They were neighbors ralf and worked together. There are many versions of Smith getting the plates, and we will get to all these when we get into the folk magic Joe practiced...

Well if you believe all that Chase stated, plates went back in the box on there own, to wear certain clothes and do certain actions and Moroni was a toad, well then you will about believe everything that supposed friends of JS testified too... hmm

Again, you expect a historian and author...to lie and be dishonest, even by omission, to protect JS.

I never said or claimed JS was innocent of sin.... oh my Markk, how obtuse can you be.... using that word the same way you did, chuckle

 

[Markk]

Well if you believe all that Chase stated, plates went back in the box on there own, to wear certain clothes and do certain actions and Moroni was a toad, well then you will about believe everything that supposed friends of JS testified too... hmm

LOL, DB is arguing that Smith is innocent because Stowell believed Joseph could see treasures buried 50 feet in the ground, and he was basically the “fourth” witness to the plates, and stuck by Joseph until the end while the three witness ran from him.

When we get into folk magic and how Joseph used spell, animal sacrifices and alike with his money digging, the toad story will make sense and making it more likley a neighbor did hear Joseph say something like that.

This will also lead to the salamander letter and Hoffman.

 

[Markk]

I never said or claimed JS was innocent of sin.... oh my Markk, how obtuse can you be.... using that word the same way you did, chuckle

Then tell me ten of his worse sins and mistakes he made? Give me a narrative of his sins? Do you think it was sin when he was having sex with teen age girl that he secretly married, in his home, behind Emma back?

And what i said in context, which you ducked, do you think Bushman should lie as a historian and leave out the accounts and affidavits of those that said negative things about him.

 

[Markk]

Not exactly in context good buddy, but yes Bushman is a blockhead for allowing his ego to trash JS and quote enemies of the church and malcontent neighbors.

So far, Brother Bushman, a faithful saint. A bishop, stake president, and patriarch, is an egotistical blockheaded fool. Did I mention he is employed by the church also as a historian with the JS Papers?

 

[Richard7]

So far, Brother Bushman, a faithful saint. A bishop, stake president, and patriarch, is an egotistical blockheaded fool. Did I mention he is employed by the church also as a historian with the JS Papers?

That's already been hashed out Markk, and I admitted to all the above... so does that make anyone of us members as holy righteous people?
I have served in many leadership positions and callings and still have to repent every day.... what is your point in making the above statement, does this make Bushman a faithful Saint? nice try!

 

[Richard7]

That's already been hashed out Markk, and I admitted to all the above... so does that make anyone of us members as holy righteous people?
I have served in many leadership positions and callings and still have to repent every day.... what is your point in making the above statement, does this make Bushman a faithful Saint? nice try! We all have to work hard at enduring to the end...Bushman, I and all others will answer for all we do and did hear on earth, if he knowingly used sources other then hones witness, then he will answer for this and possibly why others left the church because of his writings.

 

[Markk]

That's already been hashed out Markk, and I admitted to all the above... so does that make anyone of us members as holy righteous people?
I have served in many leadership positions and callings and still have to repent every day.... what is your point in making the above statement, does this make Bushman a faithful Saint? nice try!

My point is that the leadership of the church certainly disagrees with you. In fact, they agree with what Bushman is writing and doing so much they gave him very important job in the church in regard of the JS Papers position.

 

[dberrie2020]

LOL, DB is arguing that Smith is innocent because Stowell believed Joseph could see treasures buried 50 feet in the ground,

Cite, please. I'll add that to the list of your false statements.

 

[Markk]

Cite, please. I'll add that to the list of your false statements.

https://forums.carm.org/threads/teachings-that-lead-to-a-god-complex.13450/page-14 post 261

You pasted this, and color coded it with emphasis that Josaih Stowell, one, that he swore that believed Joseph had all the "power he claimed," and two, that ..." I positively know it to be true." The testimony of Stowell clearly reads that he believed Joseph could see treasures 50 feet below the ground. Note: you pasted this at least on two other occasions.

"The next witness called was Deacon Isaiah Stowell. He confirmed all that is said above in relation to himself, and delineated many other circumstances not necessary to record. He swore that the prisoner possessed all the power he claimed, and declared he could see things fifty feet below the surface of the earth, as plain as the witness could see what was on the Justices’ table, and described very many circumstances to confirm his words. Justice Neely soberly looked at the witness, and in a solemn, dignified voice said: “Deacon Stowell, do I understand you as swearing before God, under the solemn oath you have taken, that you believe the prisoner can see by the aid of the stone fifty feet below the surface of the earth, as plainly as you can see what is on my table?” “Do I believe it?” says Deacon Stowell, “do I believe it? no, it is not a matter of belief: I positively know it to be true.”

Are you saying now, IYO, that Stowell was lying?

 

[Richard7]

My point is that the leadership of the church certainly disagrees with you. In fact, they agree with what Bushman is writing and doing so much they gave him very important job in the church in regard of the JS Papers position.

I don't know what or who you are getting your information from, but this is still a very much hot issue between Traditionalist and Progressives, for you to say this is settled is foolishness and folly on you part. You are happy with The New Mormonism and I find it causing faith crisis. Listened to a man last night who came back to activity after a long time away, he said that Bushman and others had convinced him to give up on the Church. He was even giving out Bushman's book to his own family to get them to leave.

 

[Markk]

I don't know what or who you are getting your information from, but this is still a very much hot issue between Traditionalist and Progressives, for you to say this is settled is foolishness and folly on you part. You are happy with The New Mormonism and I find it causing faith crisis. Listened to a man last night who came back to activity after a long time away, he said that Bushman and others had convinced him to give up on the Church. He was even giving out Bushman's book to his own family to get them to leave.

I never said it is settled...Focus ralf, I have stated I agree with Bushman that there are "the Grandmas, and the Grandkids."

The church is phasing folks like you out. in 20-30 years there will not be much of an argument about how the BoM was translated with a stone in the hat, of having sex with his wives...etc. A 12 year kid with a cell phone can go to the church essays or the JS Papers and find this out in a few minutes.

What you call a traditionalist vs Progressives, the other side calls their position as the true narrative, and yours as the false narrative. But for sure the church seems dedicated to getting a truer narrative out, they have a long way to go, but your understanding is gone forever, there is no going back. Which is why I won't be surprised of a large split someday.

 

[dberrie2020]

https://forums.carm.org/threads/teachings-that-lead-to-a-god-complex.13450/page-14 post 261

You pasted this, and color coded it with emphasis that Josaih Stowell, one, that he swore that believed Joseph had all the "power he claimed," and two, that ..." I positively know it to be true."

Which has nothing to do with my beliefs about Joseph Smith being innocent or guilty:

Markk said: LOL, DB is arguing that Smith is innocent because Stowell believed Joseph could see treasures buried 50 feet in the ground,

Markk--you need to differentiate between the facts presented in the testimonies--and your estimations of my beliefs.

The testimony of Stowell clearly reads that he believed Joseph could see treasures 50 feet below the ground.
Note: you pasted this at least on two other occasions.

"The next witness called was Deacon Isaiah Stowell. He confirmed all that is said above in relation to himself, and delineated many other circumstances not necessary to record. He swore that the prisoner possessed all the power he claimed, and declared he could see things fifty feet below the surface of the earth, as plain as the witness could see what was on the Justices’ table, and described very many circumstances to confirm his words. Justice Neely soberly looked at the witness, and in a solemn, dignified voice said: “Deacon Stowell, do I understand you as swearing before God, under the solemn oath you have taken, that you believe the prisoner can see by the aid of the stone fifty feet below the surface of the earth, as plainly as you can see what is on my table?” “Do I believe it?” says Deacon Stowell, “do I believe it? no, it is not a matter of belief: I positively know it to be true.”

Are you saying now, IYO, that Stowell was lying?

Again-- the testimony presented in that above article stands independent of my beliefs.

As you know--my point was if Josiah Stowell was the principle who Joseph Smith was charged with defrauding--then the testimony above, showing Josiah Stowell as affirming his confidence in Joseph Smith, and he "possessed all the power he claimed,"--then the case was compromised from that point.

 

[Markk]

Which has nothing to do with my beliefs about Joseph Smith being innocent or guilty:



Markk--you need to differentiate between the facts presented in the testimonies--and your estimations of my beliefs.



Again-- the testimony presented in that above article stands independent of my beliefs.

As you know--my point was if Josiah Stowell was the principle who Joseph Smith was charged with defrauding--then the testimony above, showing Josiah Stowell as affirming his confidence in Joseph Smith, and he "possessed all the power he claimed,"--then the case was compromised from that point.

Where does anything in any of the records "read" that he was charged with fraud. CFR. You keep saying that without one shred of evidence.

"As I know"...you unwittingly committed to Josiah Stowell believing 100% that Joseph had the gift to see buried treasures, and other things deep in the ground. Which proves that you also believe Joseph could do this, unless you believe Joseph was actually defrauding Josiah.

Either way we know that Joseph was a money digger...and that you know you backed yourself into a losing corner in that you can't produce any evidence of the charge being fraud, and more telling, you refuse to give your own opinion as to whether Jospeh was innocent or guilty...and just waffle knowing you backed yourself into a corner.

Could Joseph see 50 ft under the ground with the stone is a question I ask you, apart from trial...you certainly have an opinion of that.

If you say yes, he could see buried treasures with the seer stone, you verify the long-asserted claims of the "anti-Mormon" writers...But if you say he couldn't see buried treasures as Josiah claimed, and he believed, then Joseph would be guilty of the charge of being a disorderly person and even much worse...like swindling, fraud...etc.

 

[Richard7]

Where does anything in any of the records "read" that he was charged with fraud. CFR. You keep saying that without one shred of evidence.

"As I know"...you unwittingly committed to Josiah Stowell believing 100% that Joseph had the gift to see buried treasures, and other things deep in the ground. Which proves that you also believe Joseph could do this, unless you believe Joseph was actually defrauding Josiah.

Yep, Stowell did believe that and it was JS that told Stowell to give up, there was no gold to be found.

Either way we know that Joseph was a money digger...and that you know you backed yourself into a losing corner in that you can't produce any evidence of the charge being fraud, and more telling, you refuse to give your own opinion as to whether Jospeh was innocent or guilty...and just waffle knowing you backed yourself into a corner.

No, you claim he was a money digger and have provided zero evidence, nothing, nada, zero evidence. Show me a diary or paper ever written by Jospeh Smith he was a gold digger.

Could Joseph see 50 ft under the ground with the stone is a question I ask you, apart from trial...you certainly have an opinion of that.

If you say yes, he could see buried treasures with the seer stone, you verify the long-asserted claims of the "anti-Mormon" writers...But if you say he couldn't see buried treasures as Josiah claimed, and he believed, then Joseph would be guilty of the charge of being a disorderly person and even much worse...like swindling, fraud...etc.

Deal with it Markk, Cowdery was the best one to give a account of the method of translation...

The principal scribe, Oliver Cowdery, testified under oath in 1831 that Joseph Smith “found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking through these, he was able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates.” In the fall of 1830, Cowdery visited Union Village, Ohio, and spoke about the translation of the Book of Mormon. Soon thereafter, a village resident reported that the translation was accomplished by means of “two transparent stones in the form of spectacles thro which the translator looked on the engraving.”

Goodwillie, “Shaker Richard McNemar,” 143.

 

[Richard7]

I never said it is settled...Focus ralf, I have stated I agree with Bushman that there are "the Grandmas, and the Grandkids."

Of course you have, all is settled strictly using only your personal opinion on the matter. You have stated boldly that JS was a gold digger, that he was lazy and his father was a drunk, the farm was almost given away for reasons they could not make ends meet (still waiting for that source).
Why not also post good sources, people who really new him, but no, you fail to even do that along with not sourcing first hand accounts.

The church is phasing folks like you out. in 20-30 years there will not be much of an argument about how the BoM was translated with a stone in the hat, of having sex with his wives...etc. A 12 year kid with a cell phone can go to the church essays or the JS Papers and find this out in a few minutes.

Well good buddy, I would say that phasing is not exactly correct, we are right now witnessing a host of members leaving the Church, not so much the traditionalist but the progressives... and yes a lot of the younger generation. But at the same time Markk, many are returning and I am a first hand witness of this great revival... you claim that I'm also in a faith crisis, ho hum even more deflection.

What you call a traditionalist vs Progressives, the other side calls their position as the true narrative, and yours as the false narrative. But for sure the church seems dedicated to getting a truer narrative out, they have a long way to go, but your understanding is gone forever, there is no going back. Which is why I won't be surprised of a large split someday.

Yes its even prophesied as a split that will be coming if not already happening. Read the Biblical account of the Ten Virgins Markk, only 50 percent of the Church will be ready for the Second Coming of Christ.

Doctrine and Covenants 45:56–57

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

 

[brotherofJared]

Where does anything in any of the records "read" that he was charged with fraud. CFR.

I believe this is where @Markk begins chasing his tail. Round and round we go.