God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.

[brotherofJared]

Of course you have, all is settled strictly using only your personal opinion on the matter.

Exactly. LOL

 

[Markk]

Yep, Stowell did believe that and it was JS that told Stowell to give up, there was no gold to be found.

Here is the testimony of Josiah per the Judge. Do you believe what Josiah said is true. He certaily believed as you noted.

Josiah Stowel sworn, says that, prisoner had been at his house, something like 5 months, had been employed by him to work on farm part of time—that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone—that Prisoner had looked for him some times once to tell him about money buried on Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument hill, and once for Salt Spring and that he positively knew that the Prisoner could tell and possessed2 the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone—that he found the digging part at Bend and Monument Hill, as prisoner represented it—that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attlton—for a mine did not exactly find it but got a (piece) of oar which resembled gold, he thinks; that Prisoner had told by means of this stone where, a Mr. Bacon had buried money, that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner said that it was on a certain Root of a stump 5 feet from surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone, that he supposed that money moved down—that prisoner did not3 offer his services; that he never deceived him,—that Prisoner looked through stone and described Josiah Stowels house and out houses, while at Palmyra at Simpson Stowels correctly, that he had told about a painted tree with a man’s hand painted upon it by means of said stone; that he had been in company with prisoner digging for gold, and had the most implicit faith in Prisoners skill.
There is an account of Joseph telling the group to stop digging. but just because he didn't find the mine, does not mean he was not hired as a money digger to find the mind. It means that money digging is a hoax. He never found anything of value and would claim things like the treasures would slip or move away as Josiah testified in the trail.

No, you claim he was a money digger and have provided zero evidence, nothing, nada, zero evidence. Show me a diary or paper ever written by Jospeh Smith he was a gold digger.

LOL....Stowell said he was a money digger and you just agreed he did indeed believe it. Focus on what you are saying here. Do you believe Sowell's testimony that Joseph could do what he said he could do?

You just admitted that Joseph couldn't find the mind...while he was money digging Ralf!

Deal with it Markk, Cowdery was the best one to give a account of the method of translation...

The principal scribe, Oliver Cowdery, testified under oath in 1831 that Joseph Smith “found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking through these, he was able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates.” In the fall of 1830, Cowdery visited Union Village, Ohio, and spoke about the translation of the Book of Mormon. Soon thereafter, a village resident reported that the translation was accomplished by means of “two transparent stones in the form of spectacles thro which the translator looked on the engraving.”

Goodwillie, “Shaker Richard McNemar,” 143.

There were several firsthand accounts, and they most all disagree with Oliver's. Do you believe Oliver when he said that Joseph was having an affair with Fanny Alger.

Also are you saying that Oliver telling a shaker what happened and the shaker writing it down is a firsthand account.

Point being the majority of evidence, that contradict Olivers testimony is overwhelming.

David Witmer's testimony is clear, as is his sisters, and Oliver future wife Elizabeth Ann Witmer Cowdery...both being witnesses of the translation process. The Witmer house was very small, and several people lived in it...so it is not like Oliver is the only one there.

Richmond, Ray Co., Mo. Feb 15, 1870⸻I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith’s translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father’s house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his face in his hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read the words?] as they appeared before him.
(Lyndon W. Cook, ed., David Whitmer Interviews: A Restoration Witness [Orem, UT: Grandin Book, 1991], 233–34; cited in John W. Welch, ed., Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations, 1820–1844 [Provo, UT: BYU Press / Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2005), 165.)

Note. The director is the stone, Joseph also used this term.

 

[Richard7]

David Witmer's testimony is clear, as is his sisters, and Oliver future wife Elizabeth Ann Witmer Cowdery...both being witnesses of the translation process. The Witmer house was very small, and several people lived in it...so it is not like Oliver is the only one there.

Richmond, Ray Co., Mo. Feb 15, 1870⸻I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith’s translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father’s house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his face in his hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read the words?] as they appeared before him.
(Lyndon W. Cook, ed., David Whitmer Interviews: A Restoration Witness [Orem, UT: Grandin Book, 1991], 233–34; cited in John W. Welch, ed., Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations, 1820–1844 [Provo, UT: BYU Press / Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2005), 165.)

Oh my! well Markk, pick the one that best describes the what! Stones, stone, urim and thummim, spectacles, etc, etc.


Table 1. Various Descriptions of the Instrument of Translation

Footnote	Date and Source	Instrument used to Translate	Description of Instrument
6	1878 P. Wilhelm Poulson	Urim and Thummim	Two white stones cased in spectacles of silver, stones separated more than normal spectacles
7	1879 Thomas Wood Smith	Urim and Thummim
10	1879 J. L. Traughber Jr.	Seer Stone	Dark colored, opaque stone placed in hat, put face in hat to exclude light
11	1880 Thomas Wood Smith	Retraction of Urim and Thummim method described in interview in footnote (see footnote 7)
12	1880 Eri B. Mullin	Urim and Thummim	Looked like spectacles
9	1881 Kansas City Journal	Interpreters	Two small stones of chocolate color, egg shaped and perfectly smooth, not transparent
13	1881 David Whitmer to the Kansas City Journal	Retracted the Kansas City Journal Story about the Interpreters and said Joseph used a sun stone	Not two stones, but one stone was used. Said he did not say Joseph used the interpreters.
14	1881 Chicago Times	Urim and Thummim	Small oval kidney-shaped stone called the Urim and Thummim that had marvelous power converting characters on the plates when used by Smith
18	1884 E. C. Briggs	Stone	Placed stone in hat from which all light was excluded
15	1884 St. Louis Republican	Urim and Thummim	Two transparent pebbles set in the rim of a bow and fastened to a breastplate.
22	1885 Zenas H. Gurley	Seers stone	Placed the stone in a hat into which he buried his face.
17	1885 Chicago Tribune	Started with Urim and Thummim he also called “magical spectacles”. Replaced by “seer’s stone” after transgression	Urim and Thummim: affixed them to his eyes and translate the plates. Seer’s Stone: Placed in hat and covered his face in the hat
16	1886 Omaha Herald	Stone spectacles, Urim and Thummim, magic stone, strange stone	The strange stone was described as oval-shaped, chocolate-colored, about the size of an egg only more flat
19	1886, M. J. Hubble		Pair of large bound spectacles
25	1887 by David Whitmer	Seer stone	Seer stone was placed in a hat and Joseph put his face in the hat drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light
23	1888 Richmond Democrat	Urim and Thummim, after the 116 pages were lost, Joseph was presented with a stone	Urim and Thummim: Pair of transparent stone spectacles Stone: strange oval-shaped, chocolate colored, about the size of an egg but more flat.
24	1909 Nathan A. Tanner, Jr.	Joseph had both the Urim and Thummim and “stone”	Stone was chocolate colored

 

[Richard7]

David Witmer's testimony is clear, as is his sisters, and Oliver future wife Elizabeth Ann Witmer Cowdery...both being witnesses of the translation process. The Witmer house was very small, and several people lived in it...so it is not like Oliver is the only one there.

To support his testimonies, David claims, as seen above, that he and others witnessed the work of translation. The following are similar claims:

“…as the translation was being read by the aid of the Urim and Thummim of characters on the plates by Joseph Smith, which work of translation and transcription he frequently saw.” (see footnote 7)
“I, too, have heard Father [David] Whitmer say that he was present many times while Joseph was translating…” (see footnote 10)

Even though David claimed he and others were present during the translation, David, clearly, is not consistent in the method he describes that he and others witnessed in the Peter Whitmer home where he acknowledges the translation took place (see footnotes 10, 9 and 17). In the Chicago Tribune interview (see footnote 17), David talks about the loss of the 116 pages:

. . . It seems that Smith, who was puffed up with his great importance as a confidential secretary to the Lord, displeased the Master by entering into some carnal confab in relation to the work. For this offense he was punished by having the celestial visitant, who first commissioned him to inaugurate the work, suddenly appear and carry off the plates and spectacles. . .
. . . Smith’s offense of tattling the secrets of the work among his neighbors was less readily condoned [than Harris losing the 116 pages], and for a long time the work was suspended, the angel being in possession of the plates and spectacles. Finally, when Smith had fully repented of his rash conduct, he was forgiven. The plates, however, were not returned, but instead Smith was given by the angel a Urim and Thummim of another pattern, it being shaped in oval or kidney form. This seer’s stone he was instructed to place in his hat, and on covering his face with the hat the character and translation would appear on the stone.
This worked just as satisfactorily as the old method, but at no time thereafter was the backsliding Joseph intrusted with the precious plates. However, the entire portion of the golden volume, which the angel said might be translated, was reduced by the nimble amanuenses to readable manuscript (see footnote 17).

We see within the same Chicago Tribune interview (see footnote 17) David first talks about Joseph having the “interpreters” and the plates, plus an audience witnessing his work of translation, and then concludes with a discussion describing how Joseph was punished by an angel because of his transgressions resulting in the plates and the “spectacles” being taken and never returned. In their place, a seer stone was given to Joseph and he was instructed to place it in a hat where the characters and translation would appear. David makes this same claim in other interviews that the plates and/or interpreters were taken away after the 116 pages were lost and that Joseph finished the translation using only the stone (see footnotes 9, 13, 16, and 23). In spite of the claim that the plates and Urim and Thummim were taken away and never returned and were replaced by the seer stone, and that there were many witnesses of the translation process, in 1888 (published Feb 17, 1909), David said “that Joseph was separated from the scribe by a blanket, as I remember, that he had the Urim and Thummim, and a chocolate colored stone, which he used alternately, as suited his convenience, and he said he believed Joseph could as well accomplish the translation by looking into a hat, or any other stone, as by the use of the Urim and Thummim or chocolate colored stone.”24

Here is the site, use the footnotes as you please, that is if your looking for the truth... busted again buddy...

David Whitmer: Man of Contradictions – An Analysis of Statements

L.H. Pearson, Ph.D. Introduction After four years from the first meeting with Moroni on the Hill Cumorah, on 22 September 1827, Moroni gave Joseph Smith the sacred record written upon metal plates along with the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate. Joseph and Emma were married on January 18...

josephsmithfoundation.org

 

[brotherofJared]

Here is the testimony of Josiah per the Judge. Do you believe what Josiah said is true. He certaily believed as you noted.

Josiah Stowel sworn, says that, prisoner had been at his house, something like 5 months, had been employed by him to work on farm part of time—that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone—that Prisoner had looked for him some times once to tell him about money buried on Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument hill, and once for Salt Spring and that he positively knew that the Prisoner could tell and possessed2 the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone—that he found the digging part at Bend and Monument Hill, as prisoner represented it—that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attlton—for a mine did not exactly find it but got a (piece) of oar which resembled gold, he thinks; that Prisoner had told by means of this stone where, a Mr. Bacon had buried money, that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner said that it was on a certain Root of a stump 5 feet from surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone, that he supposed that money moved down—that prisoner did not3 offer his services; that he never deceived him,—that Prisoner looked through stone and described Josiah Stowels house and out houses, while at Palmyra at Simpson Stowels correctly, that he had told about a painted tree with a man’s hand painted upon it by means of said stone; that he had been in company with prisoner digging for gold, and had the most implicit faith in Prisoners skill.
There is an account of Joseph telling the group to stop digging. but just because he didn't find the mine, does not mean he was not hired as a money digger to find the mind. It means that money digging is a hoax. He never found anything of value and would claim things like the treasures would slip or move away as Josiah testified in the trail.


LOL....Stowell said he was a money digger and you just agreed he did indeed believe it. Focus on what you are saying here. Do you believe Sowell's testimony that Joseph could do what he said he could do?

You just admitted that Joseph couldn't find the mind...while he was money digging Ralf!


There were several firsthand accounts, and they most all disagree with Oliver's. Do you believe Oliver when he said that Joseph was having an affair with Fanny Alger.

Also are you saying that Oliver telling a shaker what happened and the shaker writing it down is a firsthand account.

Point being the majority of evidence, that contradict Olivers testimony is overwhelming.

David Witmer's testimony is clear, as is his sisters, and Oliver future wife Elizabeth Ann Witmer Cowdery...both being witnesses of the translation process. The Witmer house was very small, and several people lived in it...so it is not like Oliver is the only one there.

Richmond, Ray Co., Mo. Feb 15, 1870⸻I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith’s translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father’s house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his face in his hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read the words?] as they appeared before him.
(Lyndon W. Cook, ed., David Whitmer Interviews: A Restoration Witness [Orem, UT: Grandin Book, 1991], 233–34; cited in John W. Welch, ed., Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations, 1820–1844 [Provo, UT: BYU Press / Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2005), 165.)

Note. The director is the stone, Joseph also used this term.

round and round and round we go. Where we'll stop, nobody knows.

 

[Markk]

Oh my! well Markk, pick the one that best describes the what! Stones, stone, urim and thummim, spectacles, etc, etc.


Table 1. Various Descriptions of the Instrument of Translation

Footnote	Date and Source	Instrument used to Translate	Description of Instrument
6	1878 P. Wilhelm Poulson	Urim and Thummim	Two white stones cased in spectacles of silver, stones separated more than normal spectacles
7	1879 Thomas Wood Smith	Urim and Thummim
10	1879 J. L. Traughber Jr.	Seer Stone	Dark colored, opaque stone placed in hat, put face in hat to exclude light
11	1880 Thomas Wood Smith	Retraction of Urim and Thummim method described in interview in footnote (see footnote 7)
12	1880 Eri B. Mullin	Urim and Thummim	Looked like spectacles
9	1881 Kansas City Journal	Interpreters	Two small stones of chocolate color, egg shaped and perfectly smooth, not transparent
13	1881 David Whitmer to the Kansas City Journal	Retracted the Kansas City Journal Story about the Interpreters and said Joseph used a sun stone	Not two stones, but one stone was used. Said he did not say Joseph used the interpreters.
14	1881 Chicago Times	Urim and Thummim	Small oval kidney-shaped stone called the Urim and Thummim that had marvelous power converting characters on the plates when used by Smith
18	1884 E. C. Briggs	Stone	Placed stone in hat from which all light was excluded
15	1884 St. Louis Republican	Urim and Thummim	Two transparent pebbles set in the rim of a bow and fastened to a breastplate.
22	1885 Zenas H. Gurley	Seers stone	Placed the stone in a hat into which he buried his face.
17	1885 Chicago Tribune	Started with Urim and Thummim he also called “magical spectacles”. Replaced by “seer’s stone” after transgression	Urim and Thummim: affixed them to his eyes and translate the plates. Seer’s Stone: Placed in hat and covered his face in the hat
16	1886 Omaha Herald	Stone spectacles, Urim and Thummim, magic stone, strange stone	The strange stone was described as oval-shaped, chocolate-colored, about the size of an egg only more flat
19	1886, M. J. Hubble		Pair of large bound spectacles
25	1887 by David Whitmer	Seer stone	Seer stone was placed in a hat and Joseph put his face in the hat drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light
23	1888 Richmond Democrat	Urim and Thummim, after the 116 pages were lost, Joseph was presented with a stone	Urim and Thummim: Pair of transparent stone spectacles Stone: strange oval-shaped, chocolate colored, about the size of an egg but more flat.
24	1909 Nathan A. Tanner, Jr.	Joseph had both the Urim and Thummim and “stone”	Stone was chocolate colored

If you studied and did research, you would understand that the U&T is the seer stone...you even pasted an account from Witmir in the Pearson paper that said so. But to answer your question the best firsthand account is #25, that is the account President Nelson teaches.

1887 by David Whitmer

Seer stone

Seer stone was placed in a hat and Joseph put his face in the hat drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light

 

[brotherofJared]

If you studied and did research, you would understand that the U&T is the seer stone...

The seer stone is a type of Urim and Thummim. Two stones came with the plates. The seer stone used later was not the stones that came with the plates. They are separate items.

 

[brotherofJared]

best firsthand account is #25

LOL. The one that doesn't exist.

 

[Markk]

The seer stone is a type of Urim and Thummim. Two stones came with the plates. The seer stone used later was not the stones that came with the plates. They are separate items.

No, the stone was also "referred to" the Urim and Thummim, ...per the church and many accounts. It reads nothing about a "type." Ralf denies bothbeing used in the hat...what would you say to Ralf when he denies the seer stone, shown in the link below, in the hat being used?

During the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith apparently used both of these instruments—the interpreters and his seer stone—interchangeably. They worked in much the same way, and the early Saints sometimes used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the seer stone as well as the interpreters.

Seer Stones

Seer Stones

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[Markk]

LOL. The one that doesn't exist.

History and the church read otherwise.

An address to all believers in Christ : Whitmer, David, 1805-1888 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

In gray printed wrapper. Title within a double lined border

archive.org

Who was David Whitmer?

Study help for this week’s Come, Follow Me readings.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

and President Nelson

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)

A Treasured Testament

A Treasured Testament

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[Richard7]

If you studied and did research, you would understand that the U&T is the seer stone...you even pasted an account from Witmir in the Pearson paper that said so. But to answer your question the best firsthand account is #25, that is the account President Nelson teaches.

Pres. Nelson used one of many accounts as he stated.... you are twisting his words good buddy... chuckle.
I do trust Pres. Nelson and also Jospeh Smith, see below.

Jospeh Smith:
Moroni, the person who deposited the plates, from whence the book of Mormon was translated, in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County New York, being dead; and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me, and told me where they were; and gave me directions how to obtain them. I obtained them, and the Urim and Thummim with them; by the means of which, I translated the plates; and thus came the book of Mormon.

(Joseph Smith, Elders’ Journal 1 (July 1838): 42-43, The Joseph Smith Papers,

 

[Markk]

Pres. Nelson used one of many accounts as he stated.... you are twisting his words good buddy... chuckle.
I do trust Pres. Nelson and also Jospeh Smith, see below.

Jospeh Smith:
Moroni, the person who deposited the plates, from whence the book of Mormon was translated, in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County New York, being dead; and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me, and told me where they were; and gave me directions how to obtain them. I obtained them, and the Urim and Thummim with them; by the means of which, I translated the plates; and thus came the book of Mormon.

(Joseph Smith, Elders’ Journal 1 (July 1838): 42-43, The Joseph Smith Papers,

Ralf, Nelson wrote and taught...quote " The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)"

Here is a quote from the transcript of the video, in Elder Nelsons words... " ...We have a lot of suggestions about how it was done. We know that they had a table like this. We know they had the golden plates, covered usually. And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat. And it was easier for him to see the light when he'd take that position. .."
Ralf one mor time, the Urim and Thummim is the seer stone/s and were put in the hat. This is what President Nelson taught and siad that "we know" ...do you believe this? or is president nelson, like Bushman a revisionist?...they are teaching the exact same thing.

The Book of Mormon Is Tangible Evidence of the Restoration

President Russell M. Nelson and Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President, discuss the translation of the Book of Mormon at the site in Pennsylvania where Joseph Smith translated it.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[brotherofJared]

No

Yes.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, Nelson wrote and taught...quote " The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)"

Here is a quote from the transcript of the video, in Elder Nelsons words... " ...We have a lot of suggestions about how it was done. We know that they had a table like this. We know they had the golden plates, covered usually. And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat. And it was easier for him to see the light when he'd take that position. .."
Ralf one mor time, the Urim and Thummim is the seer stone/s and were put in the hat. This is what President Nelson taught and siad that "we know" ...do you believe this? or is president nelson, like Bushman a revisionist?...they are teaching the exact same thing.

The Book of Mormon Is Tangible Evidence of the Restoration

President Russell M. Nelson and Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President, discuss the translation of the Book of Mormon at the site in Pennsylvania where Joseph Smith translated it.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

So why not post all the different accounts by David, which are at this time 24 accounts and see how screwed up his accounts were, contradictions, bad memory, changing his mind and sought for corrections even though the author stated he swore by the statements he heard out of David's own mouth.

Yea, I know you won't post them for reasons Whitmere makes a bad example of staying on track and scrambles to make any sense of what he saw or really witnessed. The account you gave above does not agree with many of his other accounts. Most of his accounts came 70 yrs. later.

 

[Markk]

So why not post all the different accounts by David, which are at this time 24 accounts and see how screwed up his accounts were, contradictions, bad memory, changing his mind and sought for corrections even though the author stated he swore by the statements he heard out of David's own mouth.

Yea, I know you won't post them for reasons Whitmere makes a bad example of staying on track and scrambles to make any sense of what he saw or really witnessed. The account you gave above does not agree with many of his other accounts. Most of his accounts came 70 yrs. later.

Ralf he never waivered. The problem you have you do not realize, no matter how many times you are told, the U&T is the seer stone. I gave you church produced links...you have to learn to read and research on your own.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf he never waivered. The problem you have you do not realize, no matter how many times you are told, the U&T is the seer stone. I gave you church produced links...you have to learn to read and research on your own.

Obviously that is true, he never did acquiescence, the one thing good was his firm testimony that he witnessed a angel, the gold plates, Laban's sword, the urim and thummin, the Liahona and a voice from heaven, but not the seer stone. Oh how you wish that wasn't true.
During the 1930s, Dr. Francis Kirkham endeavored to “gather and evaluate all the newspaper articles he could locate about the Book of Mormon.”[8] Many of these articles were obtained from newspaper collections located in the New York area and have recently been made available in an online database hosted by the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship.[9]

As we have seen, many of these news accounts refer to the use of the spectacles or stone together with a hat, consistent with the late statements of Martin Harris and David Whitmer. Kirkham, in the October 1939 Improvement Era, quoted the accounts of the stone and the hat given by Martin Harris and David Whitmer. Kirkham, however, did not accept the eyewitness accounts that Joseph actually used a seer stone in the translation of the Book of Mormon, concluding that “the statements of both of these men are to be explained by the eagerness of old age to call upon a fading and uncertain memory for the details of events which still remained real and objective to them.”[10] In his 1951 book A New Witness For Christ in America, Kirkham believed that “it may not have been expedient for the Prophet to try and explain the method of translation for the reason his hearers would lack the capacity to understand. It seemed sufficient to them at that time to know that the translation had been made by the gift and power of God.”[11] Kirkham goes on to say that, “After a lapse of forty years of time, both David Whitmer and Martin Harris attempted to give the method of the translation. Evidently the Prophet did not tell them the method.”[12] Despite the fact that elements of Harris’s and Whitmer’s story were consistent with each other, Kirkham simply refused to accept the idea that the accounts might have basis in the truth.

In 1956, Elder Joseph Fielding Smith knew of the seer stone (and acknowledged that the Church had the stone in its posession), but did not believe that Joseph actually used it during the translation of the Book of Mormon.

SEER STONE NOT USED IN BOOK OF MORMON TRANSLATION. We have been taught since the days of the Prophet that the Urim and Thummim were returned with the plates to the angel. We have no record of the Prophet having the Urim and Thummim after the organization of the Church. Statements of translations by the Urim and Thummim after that date are evidently errors.[13]

Like Kirkham, Joseph Fielding Smith simply refused to accept accounts of Joseph having utilized his seer stone for the purpose of translation as having any validity. In his opinion, such accounts were simply erroneous due to the fact that he believed they were hearsay and that Ether 3:22-24 states that the Urim and Thummim were preserved for the act of translation. Since the Book of Mormon does not mention the seer stone, the seer stone was evidently inferior to him.

Fairmormon.

 

[Markk]

To support his testimonies, David claims, as seen above, that he and others witnessed the work of translation. The following are similar claims:


Even though David claimed he and others were present during the translation, David, clearly, is not consistent in the method he describes that he and others witnessed in the Peter Whitmer home where he acknowledges the translation took place (see footnotes 10, 9 and 17). In the Chicago Tribune interview (see footnote 17), David talks about the loss of the 116 pages:


We see within the same Chicago Tribune interview (see footnote 17) David first talks about Joseph having the “interpreters” and the plates, plus an audience witnessing his work of translation, and then concludes with a discussion describing how Joseph was punished by an angel because of his transgressions resulting in the plates and the “spectacles” being taken and never returned. In their place, a seer stone was given to Joseph and he was instructed to place it in a hat where the characters and translation would appear. David makes this same claim in other interviews that the plates and/or interpreters were taken away after the 116 pages were lost and that Joseph finished the translation using only the stone (see footnotes 9, 13, 16, and 23). In spite of the claim that the plates and Urim and Thummim were taken away and never returned and were replaced by the seer stone, and that there were many witnesses of the translation process, in 1888 (published Feb 17, 1909), David said “that Joseph was separated from the scribe by a blanket, as I remember, that he had the Urim and Thummim, and a chocolate colored stone, which he used alternately, as suited his convenience, and he said he believed Joseph could as well accomplish the translation by looking into a hat, or any other stone, as by the use of the Urim and Thummim or chocolate colored stone.”24

Here is the site, use the footnotes as you please, that is if your looking for the truth... busted again buddy...

David Whitmer: Man of Contradictions – An Analysis of Statements

L.H. Pearson, Ph.D. Introduction After four years from the first meeting with Moroni on the Hill Cumorah, on 22 September 1827, Moroni gave Joseph Smith the sacred record written upon metal plates along with the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate. Joseph and Emma were married on January 18...

josephsmithfoundation.org

Ralf did you read and follow the notes? You said you don't read or research, so I am under the assumption you did not in regard to Pearsons's article.

This is the first assertion, of Pearson, whom I still can't find anything on, in regard to LDS apologetics history.

"In one of the first published interviews (Aug 16, 1878)6, David provides a traditional description of the Urim and Thummim where he says there “were two white stones, each of them cased in as spectacles are, in a kind of silver casing, but the bow between the stones was more heavy, and longer apart between the stones, than we usually find it in spectacles.” "

If you followed the foot notes, you would know that not much is known about Dr Paulson. Also, David later in a letter to a "S.T. Mouch, he complained about the interview that he did not make the statement he said I made. We don't have the letter of inquire to DW, just the letter in response...so we don't know what part of the interview David was complaining about.

But if we just take it as being all true...it confirms that the U&T were two stones in a spectacle...and as I have shown many times elder Nelson said this would be put into Joseph hat.

Ralf you always complain about 2nd, or more hand testimonies, yet this is a third hand interview. Paulson even say at the end of the interview, it was "mostly" word for word. It was printed 4 months after the interview.

Also note the newspaper editor writes that Whitmer, is "well preserved man."

There is more to read on this one-foot note...you can start here if you are interested in understanding what the truth is.

Early Mormon Documents: Volume 5 : Dan Vogel : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

In Volume Five: INTERVIEWS WITH BOOK OF MORMON WITNESS DAVID WHITMER, CONDUCTED BY: Joseph F. Smith & Orson Pratt William H. Kelley & George A. Blakeslee...

archive.org

 

[Richard7]

Ralf did you read and follow the notes? You said you don't read or research, so I am under the assumption you did not in regard to Pearsons's article.

This is the first assertion, of Pearson, whom I still can't find anything on, in regard to LDS apologetics history.

"In one of the first published interviews (Aug 16, 1878)6, David provides a traditional description of the Urim and Thummim where he says there “were two white stones, each of them cased in as spectacles are, in a kind of silver casing, but the bow between the stones was more heavy, and longer apart between the stones, than we usually find it in spectacles.” "

David said “that Joseph was separated from the scribe by a blanket, as I remember, that he had the Urim and Thummim, and a chocolate colored stone, which he used alternately, as suited his convenience,
But at first he stated the Urim and Thummim were never returned...." David makes this same claim in other interviews that the plates and/or interpreters were taken away after the 116 pages were lost and that Joseph finished the translation using only the stone (see footnotes 9, 13, 16, and 23).

You never addressed this Markk, even after other scribes still stated he was using the Urim and Thummin or Interpreters (spectacles). Some described it as seer stones (plural) in a hat.

If you followed the foot notes, you would know that not much is known about Dr Paulson. Also, David later in a letter to a "S.T. Mouch, he complained about the interview that he did not make the statement he said I made. We don't have the letter of inquire to DW, just the letter in response...so we don't know what part of the interview David was complaining about.

How convenient for you...

But if we just take it as being all true...it confirms that the U&T were two stones in a spectacle...and as I have shown many times elder Nelson said this would be put into Joseph hat.

Yes I saw the video, and stated this after admitting there are many other accounts... do you not know what that means Markk, not one account but several accounts. Your hoping to twist this story somehow into making Pres. Nelson somehow not privy to other accounts.. chuckle.

Ralf you always complain about 2nd, or more hand testimonies, yet this is a third hand interview. Paulson even say at the end of the interview, it was "mostly" word for word. It was printed 4 months after the interview.

What is the point about 4 months after the interview? you confused or just not reading it correctly? or understanding it?

yet this is a third hand interview. Paulson even say at the end of the interview, it was "mostly" word for word.

This does not make any sense!

Also note the newspaper editor writes that Whitmer, is "well preserved man."

Well preserved, could mean a lot of things Markk! Good health, good physical shape and for his age looking great! You're stretching and embarrassing yourself again...

There is more to read on this one-foot note...you can start here if you are interested in understanding what the truth is.

Early Mormon Documents: Volume 5 : Dan Vogel : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

In Volume Five: INTERVIEWS WITH BOOK OF MORMON WITNESS DAVID WHITMER, CONDUCTED BY: Joseph F. Smith & Orson Pratt William H. Kelley & George A. Blakeslee...

archive.org

Tried, but his is all I got...

Early Mormon Documents: Volume 5 : Dan Vogel​

https://archive.org › details › volume-5_202011


Nov 9, 2020 — In Volume Five: INTERVIEWS WITH BOOK OF MORMON WITNESS DAVID WHITMER, CONDUCTED BY: Joseph F. Smith & Orson Pratt William H. Kelley & George ...
Missing: [URL ‎unfurl= ‎39/ ‎1up ‎URL]

 

[Markk]

David said “that Joseph was separated from the scribe by a blanket, as I remember, that he had the Urim and Thummim, and a chocolate colored stone, which he used alternately, as suited his convenience,
But at first he stated the Urim and Thummim were never returned...." David makes this same claim in other interviews that the plates and/or interpreters were taken away after the 116 pages were lost and that Joseph finished the translation using only the stone (see footnotes 9, 13, 16, and 23).

You never addressed this Markk, even after other scribes still stated he was using the Urim and Thummin or Interpreters (spectacles). Some described it as seer stones (plural) in a hat.

Were...give me the quote.

How convenient for you...

LOL...no Paulson has a less than credible source, even Richard L. Anderson concedes that.

Yes I saw the video, and stated this after admitting there are many other accounts... do you not know what that means Markk, not one account but several accounts. Your hoping to twist this story somehow into making Pres. Nelson somehow not privy to other accounts.. chuckle.

Here is the transcript in context:

When you pat yourself on the back for reading the book in four months, just remember, the Prophet translated it in less time than that. So don't be too proud of yourself. Quite miraculous, really, through the gift and power of God. We have a lot of suggestions about how it was done. We know that they had a table like this. We know they had the golden plates, covered usually. And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat. And it was easier for him to see the light when he'd take that position.

To me, it's like having my mobile phone in my hand. And I can get messages on it that you can't see. That's true. And they had nothing like that. So it's just the gift and power of God, how he was able to do that in that period of time.

There is no doubt here...none at all, the Book of Mormon was translated by seer stones. The interpreter and the single stone...

They worked in much the same way, and the early Saints sometimes used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the seer stone as well as the interpreters.

The Book of Mormon Is Tangible Evidence of the Restoration

President Russell M. Nelson and Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President, discuss the translation of the Book of Mormon at the site in Pennsylvania where Joseph Smith translated it.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Seer Stones

Seer Stones

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[Markk]

Were...give me the quote.

LOL...no Paulson has a less than credible source, even Richard L. Anderson concedes that.

Here is the transcript in context:

When you pat yourself on the back for reading the book in four months, just remember, the Prophet translated it in less time than that. So don't be too proud of yourself. Quite miraculous, really, through the gift and power of God. We have a lot of suggestions about how it was done. We know that they had a table like this. We know they had the golden plates, covered usually. And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat. And it was easier for him to see the light when he'd take that position.

To me, it's like having my mobile phone in my hand. And I can get messages on it that you can't see. That's true. And they had nothing like that. So it's just the gift and power of God, how he was able to do that in that period of time.

There is no doubt here...none at all, the Book of Mormon was translated by seer stones. The interpreter and the single stone...

They worked in much the same way, and the early Saints sometimes used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the seer stone as well as the interpreters.

The Book of Mormon Is Tangible Evidence of the Restoration

President Russell M. Nelson and Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President, discuss the translation of the Book of Mormon at the site in Pennsylvania where Joseph Smith translated it.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Seer Stones

Seer Stones

www.churchofjesuschrist.org