God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.

Faith is just the first principle of the gospel according to the creed...

3. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You also have to. "

2.We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

There is no room for faith alone in a LDS construct, which you want to champion.
So, are you agreeing with dberrie, that the "faith alone" Christians profess is a dead faith? A faith that does not lead to works? I suppose you can defend that on another board. I'm pretty sure they'd disagree with you.
I understand the term faith alone differently. Because we have faith, we repent, because we repent we get baptized, because we get baptized we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
So, are you agreeing with dberrie, that the "faith alone" Christians profess is a dead faith? A faith that does not lead to works?
That's not what @dberrie2020 said. Our critics claim that salvation comes to everyone who will receive it first without works of any kind. Then works follow. That is dead faith. IOW, to them, salvation is a gift that they didn't have to do anything to obtain (which, if true, begs the question, why do anything? If they are saved without works then they can sail through life doing nothing at all and be saved). Clearly, doing nothing is dead faith, at least, according to James and that's what our critics teach.
 
It's what comes after faith... Markk. Faith of course is the first Principle of the Gospel, Christians stop there...
Well, none that I know. A Christian being in Christ, does good works because they are in Him. A Christian understands they cannot buy their salvation through Christ's suffering, and that if that were the case, God would owe those that bought it. I know you probably won't give what I wrote enough thought to understand it. But just try to understand what I wrote, I am not asking you to believe it, but to understand what a Christian believes, so as you don't repeat such an ignorant uniformed statement like you did in what I quoted you saying.
 
That's not what @dberrie2020 said.

Thank you for that clarification, IE--that a faith which leads to works-- isn't my argument. Aaron was correct about a faith without works is dead faith--as being my position--and the position of the Biblical writers.

Our critics claim that salvation comes to everyone who will receive it first without works of any kind.

Correct--and the position I take. I'm not sure if Aaron was conflating my position with the " faith that does not lead to works?" If he was--that isn't my position--but the position of the critics here--when speaking of a faith which brings eternal life, according to the critics here.

Then works follow. That is dead faith. IOW, to them, salvation is a gift that they didn't have to do anything to obtain (which, if true, begs the question, why do anything? If they are saved without works then they can sail through life doing nothing at all and be saved). Clearly, doing nothing is dead faith, at least, according to James and that's what our critics teach.

That is correct--and no critic here has been able to explain that.

Romans 6:16--King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 
Well, none that I know. A Christian being in Christ, does good works because they are in Him.

The question begs to be asked--is one "in Christ" ---without the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

A Christian understands they cannot buy their salvation through Christ's suffering,

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe the Atonement of Jesus Christ was a free gift to all men--as it applies here:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


I believe it's the critics here which preach one has to do something in order for the free gift to come to them. The LDS believe just what the Biblical NT testifies to--it's a free gift to all men. Free. Christ alone. Done. Over. Nailed to the cross.

and that if that were the case, God would owe those that bought it. I know you probably won't give what I wrote enough thought to understand it.

Seeing the LDS believe it's a free gift to all men--it's difficult to understand your position, much less to consider it.

But just try to understand what I wrote, I am not asking you to believe it, but to understand what a Christian believes...

When you refer to "Christian"--are you referring to the theology the critics pawn here--are the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

What is there about the "free gift" you believe isn't free?
 
This indeed lends to my OP. The Bible is clear that Christ is our eternal mediator. However, you just conceded this was not true, and replaced Christ as our Mediator between God and man, with the LDS church. In other words, salvation cannot be by Christ alone...but only through the LDS church, and men holding some sort of PH power and authority, that replaced Christs authority to save.

But as I have written many times here, God does not really matter in LDS theology in regard to true salvation for the saint...which is eternal life or "becoming a God!" Remember "eternal life" always means becoming a God or Goddess" in LDS theology, this is also "exaltation."

What matters above all is "The survival of the Church!!!"

In order to obtain "Eternal Life"(and by default Godhood) as you wrote, and implied above, the mediator, or middleman is not Christ, but the LDS Church in Mormon thought and theology.

You obviously did not think that out, or even realize it DB, you wrote it because that is what the church instills in their members. It is a key component to the standard testimony that is taught to the children as soon and they can learn. "I know the church is true, and I know Joesph Smith is a true Prophet of God. "
This a typical child's testimony...speaking as an ex-Mormon it is an important part of how we were brought up in "the church." How to learn and how to think of the importance of "the church" and "the prophet."

Simply put DB... you certainly were spot on in your response once again, on how the church trains the minds of their members that they can through the church can become a God or Goddess.

Time for the hooey wagon to makes it's haul.
 
Well, none that I know. A Christian being in Christ, does good works because they are in Him.
Well, that's the claim, but the proof is in the pudding. I see a lot of talk but not much action. You know, there are a lot of born-again Christians who are in jail. Just over half of them are evangelicals. Were they doing good works? Was God in them? If you ask me the claim to good works because God is in them after they have been saved, looks to be a lot of talk, mostly smoke and mirrors.
A Christian understands they cannot buy their salvation through Christ's suffering, and that if that were the case, God would owe those that bought it.
Kudos for attempting to explain your doctrines instead of explaining to us ours.

If you don't think God owes it to us to keep his word, then why bother listening to Him about anything, much less acting on His word? The problem I see with this dogma is that our critics have worded the scriptures to make it evil to do good things. That's the nuttiest.thing I have ever heard. We know that Abraham obtained the blessings he did because of what he did. Those promises.came.after.the work, not before. Circumcision was a sign of promises earned, no promise was given as a result of the act of circumcision.

Likewise, today, as in all times, salvation goes to them that obey and God owes it to them because he said he.would on condition of repentance.
 
LOL...Aaron wrote that not me...do you even try to follow what folks are discussing Ralf? Classic.
Markk said:
This is what you wrote...

"I disagree. We are saved by grace alone through faith. All that's required for salvation is to accept Jesus Christ and be converted to his gospel. Conversion being "the mighty change of heart". (See Alma 5)
See also D&C 76:71-80


Chuckle, yep and I was bolstering what he said....
Richard7 said:
But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3:12


You didn't have to reply since I was only trying to strengthen his comment...yep classic Markk I actually was following the thread... nice try. You're sounding frustrated again and maybe some anger... calm down and just go with the flow...
 
Well, none that I know. A Christian being in Christ, does good works because they are in Him. A Christian understands they cannot buy their salvation through Christ's suffering, and that if that were the case, God would owe those that bought it. I know you probably won't give what I wrote enough thought to understand it. But just try to understand what I wrote, I am not asking you to believe it, but to understand what a Christian believes, so as you don't repeat such an ignorant uniformed statement like you did in what I quoted you saying.
Do you think by being condecending it makes you somehow a winner.... so again I see a major change in you since we debated years ago... is it the frustration of not seeing the church change as you so predicted or just frustrated with being outpointed.
 
Do you think by being condecending it makes you somehow a winner.... so again I see a major change in you since we debated years ago... is it the frustration of not seeing the church change as you so predicted or just frustrated with being outpointed.
ralf…you ar simply all over the place and clearly confused. You wrote this awhile ago…”
The Church is hemorrhaging as we speak, I am sad that revisionist and progressives have such a foot into our church and Universities.
Your post obviously show the results of one who lost their testimony and have not been able to at least leave the church alone.”


Now you are saying I am frustrated because the Church is changing? Ralf, your are clearly struggling with the changing church…you are all over the spectrum here…I am not condescending, I am simply pointing out your contradictory posts, which are becoming more and more apparent,

I know you moved from North County to Florida…I can only guess that the Mormonism there is quite different and more conservative, from a more conservative Utah based style of Mormonism in San Diego…and you can be honest here…did you, or are you having a faith crisis?
 
Markk said:
This is what you wrote...

"I disagree. We are saved by grace alone through faith. All that's required for salvation is to accept Jesus Christ and be converted to his gospel. Conversion being "the mighty change of heart". (See Alma 5)
See also D&C 76:71-80


Chuckle, yep and I was bolstering what he said....
Richard7 said:
But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3:12


You didn't have to reply since I was only trying to strengthen his comment...yep classic Markk I actually was following the thread... nice try. You're sounding frustrated again and maybe some anger... calm down and just go with the flow...
That makes absolutely no sense.
 
Universal salvation of physical death. Yes. We agree.
....
Being resurrected to eternity without God is damnation not salvation through faith in the blood of Christ,

....
If Salvation and Exaltation are one in the same. How do you explain D&C 132:17
"17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever."
D&C verses were composed by a false prophet.

How does one be saved, without exaltation? I've already given my answer. That you claim the church doesn't teach. What say you?
What your church teaches are lies that contradict each other.
 
Do you think by being condecending it makes you somehow a winner.
That's obviously arrogance and pride.
o again I see a major change in you since we debated years ago...
I don't. Not major anyway. Those who are sliding downhill, generally keep sliding until they reach the bottom.
is it the frustration of not seeing the church change as you so predicted or just frustrated with being outpointed.
It's probably frustration about everything, and i do mean everything.
 
Now you are saying I am frustrated because the Church is changing?
I think he specifically said, because the church ISN'T changing. But you probably won't even admit that.
is it the frustration of not seeing the church change as you so predicted
Yep. That's what he didn't say.
I am not condescending, I am simply pointing out your contradictory posts, which are becoming more and more apparent,
Anyone else see the completely contradictory statement besides me?
I know you moved from North County to Florida…I can only guess that the Mormonism there is quite different and more conservative, from a more conservative Utah based style of Mormonism in San Diego…and you can be honest here…did you, or are you having a faith crisis?
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
Being resurrected to eternity without God is damnation not salvation through faith in the blood of Christ,
Agreed. Damnation is the inability to progress, so you're not wrong. That's precisely the message of the restored gospel.
D&C verses were composed by a false prophet.
That's your opinion, and irrelevant to the
What your church teaches are lies that contradict each other.
Ah, ok. So there's my answer that has a logical explanation, or there's your explanation where it's all a ball of contradiction.
Both of claim to understand Mormonism, and yet only one of us has clear answers.

Your (and @Markk 's ) reasoning ultimately resorts in circular reasoning.
You're priori belief is that Mormonism is corrupt.
Because it's corrupt it's teachings are contradictory.
Because it's contradictory it's corrupt.

You're not willing to see alternative explanations, and anyone that shows an alternative explanation that makes sense they're not "really Mormon".
Or, according to Markk, I would be one who is conjuring up any explanation just so I can sleep well at night.
In the end, all projection. Just maybe, I do have a greater understanding of my religion than you do.
 
Then you forgot the Baptism Prayer and the Sacrament prayer and covenants we make.
Please do walk WJE through your post in question wit the Lords Supper? It is pretty hard to forget the prayer given they have it printed out for you and you read it as a priest blessing it….maybe it is different now, do they still have it on a index card or on a I-pad?
 
Well, none that I know. A Christian being in Christ, does good works because they are in Him.

The question begs to be asked--is one "in Christ" ---without the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

A Christian understands they cannot buy their salvation through Christ's suffering,

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe the Atonement of Jesus Christ was a free gift to all men--as it applies here:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


I believe it's the critics here which preach one has to do something in order for the free gift to come to them. The LDS believe just what the Biblical NT testifies to--it's a free gift to all men. Free. Christ alone. Done. Over. Nailed to the cross.

and that if that were the case, God would owe those that bought it. I know you probably won't give what I wrote enough thought to understand it.

Seeing the LDS believe it's a free gift to all men--it's difficult to understand your position, much less to consider it.

But just try to understand what I wrote, I am not asking you to believe it, but to understand what a Christian believes...

When you refer to "Christian"--are you referring to the theology the critics pawn here--are the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

What is there about the "free gift" you believe isn't free?

Markk????
 
Then you forgot the Baptism Prayer and the Sacrament prayer and covenants we make.
And of course you tried to pull a fast-one... chuckle.
Chuckle, yep and I was bolstering what he said....
Richard7 said:
But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3:12



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Please do walk WJE through your post in question wit the Lords Supper? It is pretty hard to forget the prayer given they have it printed out for you and you read it as a priest blessing it….maybe it is different now, do they still have it on a index card or on a I-pad?
Some have memorized it, when I was in the Temple as a Ordinance Worker, (Officiator) we had to memorize everything...You can find it in the BOM, the Sacrament Prayer...
 
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