God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.

And of course you tried to pull a fast-one... chuckle.
Chuckle, yep and I was bolstering what he said....
Richard7 said:
But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3:12



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Some have memorized it, when I was in the Temple as a Ordinance Worker, (Officiator) we had to memorize everything...You can find it in the BOM, the Sacrament Prayer...
I have no idea what you trying to say other than you memorized the sacrament prayer. I am not sure what fast one I pulled?
 
I have no idea what you trying to say other than you memorized the sacrament prayer. I am not sure what fast one I pulled?
Of course you don't. I tried but we don't seem to communicate very well... I guess its for reason that I'm brainwashed and you speculate ... chuckle.
 
ralf…you ar simply all over the place and clearly confused. You wrote this awhile ago…”
The Church is hemorrhaging as we speak, I am sad that revisionist and progressives have such a foot into our church and Universities.
Your post obviously show the results of one who lost their testimony and have not been able to at least leave the church alone.”


Now you are saying I am frustrated because the Church is changing? Ralf, your are clearly struggling with the changing church…you are all over the spectrum here…I am not condescending, I am simply pointing out your contradictory posts, which are becoming more and more apparent,

Maybe you just misunderstood or I was not clear... I'll try again, "
Richard7 said:
Do you think by being condecending it makes you somehow a winner.... so again I see a major change in you since we debated years ago... is it the frustration of not seeing the church change as you so predicted or just frustrated with being outpointed.


I know you moved from North County to Florida…I can only guess that the Mormonism there is quite different and more conservative, from a more conservative Utah based style of Mormonism in San Diego…and you can be honest here…did you, or are you having a faith crisis?
Nope, but it's obvious others are leaving and that bothers me for the reason of folks like you who patently try to change our Church and its doctrine in a hopeful way that this will be good for us.... women in the Priesthood, same sex marriage, and being more liberal with LBGT antics... correct me if I got that wrong.
 
Maybe you just misunderstood or I was not clear... I'll try again, "
Richard7 said:
Do you think by being condecending it makes you somehow a winner.... so again I see a major change in you since we debated years ago... is it the frustration of not seeing the church change as you so predicted or just frustrated with being outpointed.



Nope, but it's obvious others are leaving and that bothers me for the reason of folks like you who patently try to change our Church and its doctrine in a hopeful way that this will be good for us.... women in the Priesthood, same sex marriage, and being more liberal with LBGT antics... correct me if I got that wrong.
Ralf, again with the color coding and fonts, it makes it really hard to sift through what you are writing and who said what and what your new questions are.

How am I trying to change you church? By tell the truth about it.

Let me give you a suggestion...study and try to understand what all these other folks are saying, read Bushman, Compton, Vogel, Palmer and Quinn...and test what they say. I listened to the Bushman interview on Mormon stories again...and you would agree with most of what he said...as I do, but I believe he really hold back and ignores the impact, which you wouldn't. Yet you threw him and Arrington under the bus because of woman that has no idea what honest history is. But again...read everything, then see if what you are told to believe stands up to the assumed scrutiny.

The same with doctrine...study what I might believe and then we can have an honest exchange on both our understandings.
 
Ralf, again with the color coding and fonts, it makes it really hard to sift through what you are writing and who said what and what your new questions are.

How am I trying to change you church? By tell the truth about it.

Where did I indicate you were changing it, it reads "is it the frustration of not seeing the church change as you so predicted"


Let me give you a suggestion...study and try to understand what all these other folks are saying, read Bushman, Compton, Vogel, Palmer and Quinn...and test what they say. I listened to the Bushman interview on Mormon stories again...and you would agree with most of what he said...as I do, but I believe he really hold back and ignores the impact, which you wouldn't. Yet you threw him and Arrington under the bus because of woman that has no idea what honest history is. But again...read everything, then see if what you are told to believe stands up to the assumed scrutiny.

JS never used a personal seer stone in a hat and there is no evidence or facts you can provide otherwise and JS was not a lazy Gold seeker nor was his family lazy and poor....



The same with doctrine...study what I might believe and then we can have an honest exchange on both our understandings.
You already know what I believe, just share what you believe..
 
Where did I indicate you were changing it, it reads "is it the frustration of not seeing the church change as you so predicted"

“Nope, but it's obvious others are leaving and that bothers me for the reason of folks like you who patently try to change our Church”
JS never used a personal seer stone in a hat and there is no evidence or facts you can provide otherwise and JS was not a lazy Gold seeker nor was his family lazy and poor....
Ralf…where do you get that from? I will start a thread…

You already know what I believe, just share what you believe..
Like I said it was a suggestion, to help you open your mind a bit.
 
JS never used a personal seer stone in a hat and there is no evidence or facts you can provide otherwise
Ralf, have you ever read the essays? The GA had essays drafted and written, and published on LDS . Org. These were big news in 2013, huge news, and they were written and published because the internet was “revealing“ truths about th eChurch that contradicted the narrative as taught.

One of the essays, possibly authored by Bushman, was on the translation of the BoM,, and the mechanics of how Smith translated it. Th essay reads in part…

”Nevertheless, the scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process. Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates. Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.The process as described brings to mind a passage from the Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...cs-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

These essay have been publish for 10 years, and you haven’t read them? I have pasted from them for years, since the day they were published.

I am going to start a thread on JS and money digging, and his personal seer stone is a huge part of the narrative…but there is so much info on his money digging, and differing opinions of what his motives where…but there is absolutely no doubt he was a money digger…a trad handed down from his father and if i remember correctly his uncle.

Read this..it has nothing to do with Mormonism, but is a piece written about money digging by none other that Ben Franklin. This will set the table for Joes adventures in digging for treasures.

But anyways, the GA acknowledge that Joseph translated parts the BoM by putting a “seer stone” in his hat.” Remember also, and all apostles are sustained first as prophets, seers, a revelators.”
 
Damnation is the inability to progress
Damnation is the inability to add glory upon glory or to continue the seeds. My understanding is that any degree of glory is better than what we have now because it will be without the shortcomings we now experience. Immortality comes with a lot of benefits. If you cannot control one's ability to survive then you don't control them at all. That will level the playing field. However, there are a LOT of people who don't want to live the kind of life that God lives. They don't want to be in His presence. It's too much work. They weren't willing to do it here, why would anyone expect that they'd do it there?

Our critics think that singing praises forever eating all the fruit they want and never having to think or choose is paradise/heaven. They will have that and never see the face of God, not once. They will have their neutered/sterile relationships and enjoy their companions outside of a family relationship forever and that will be their heaven. That, for us, is not salvation. On that point
Being resurrected to eternity without God is damnation not salvation
But for them, it is.
 
LOL. Those are the same thing. Money digging is treasure hunting. You're artificial conflagration is full of blanks.
Actually, they are not in a context I will show. Treasure hunting is looking for treasures with say a map or thought-out process based on known or perceived information. Money digging was performed using folk magic, such a potion's, rods, chants, and seer stones.
 
Markk said:
This is what you wrote...

"I disagree. We are saved by grace alone through faith. All that's required for salvation is to accept Jesus Christ and be converted to his gospel. Conversion being "the mighty change of heart". (See Alma 5)
See also D&C 76:71-80


Chuckle, yep and I was bolstering what he said....
Richard7 said:
But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3:12


You didn't have to reply since I was only trying to strengthen his comment...yep classic Markk I actually was following the thread... nice try. You're sounding frustrated again and maybe some anger... calm down and just go with the flow...
He doesn't sound frustrated or angry to me. I hope you'll tone down your rhetoric.
 
So, are you agreeing with dberrie, that the "faith alone" Christians profess is a dead faith? A faith that does not lead to works?

For me--you, and the critics here add the question--" A faith that does not lead to works?"
It's time to realize "faith alone" does not include those works in obtaining eternal life. Not before, not after. Never. In fact--it's the very term "faith alone" which is used as a theology to denote the EXCLUSION of works in obtaining eternal life. All works. Before or after.

The " A faith that does not lead to works?" is just a smoke and mirror trail which attempts to cover the naked theology of a faith without works in obtaining eternal life--termed as "faith alone" theology.

You believe it however you will--but that's a fact.
 
Ralf I will start a thread, there is abundant accounts of the Smith's money digging and treasure hunting.
I agree, countless accounts, do does that make it true and how many of those accounts were from members or friends of his?
 
”Nevertheless, the scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process. Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates. Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.The process as described brings to mind a passage from the Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...cs-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng
LOL, this is so like you Markk, did you actually read the above and come away with 100% proof of the stone in the hat... you got to be kidding.
 
Ralf, have you ever read the essays? The GA had essays drafted and written, and published on LDS . Org. These were big news in 2013, huge news, and they were written and published because the internet was “revealing“ truths about th eChurch that contradicted the narrative as taught.

One of the essays, possibly authored by Bushman, was on the translation of the BoM,, and the mechanics of how Smith translated it. Th essay reads in part…

”Nevertheless, the scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process. Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates. Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.The process as described brings to mind a passage from the Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...cs-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

These essay have been publish for 10 years, and you haven’t read them? I have pasted from them for years, since the day they were published.

I am going to start a thread on JS and money digging, and his personal seer stone is a huge part of the narrative…but there is so much info on his money digging, and differing opinions of what his motives where…but there is absolutely no doubt he was a money digger…a trad handed down from his father and if i remember correctly his uncle.

Read this..it has nothing to do with Mormonism, but is a piece written about money digging by none other that Ben Franklin. This will set the table for Joes adventures in digging for treasures.

But anyways, the GA acknowledge that Joseph translated parts the BoM by putting a “seer stone” in his hat.” Remember also, and all apostles are sustained first as prophets, seers, a revelators.”
What GA, you left it out.... are you saying Ben Franklin was the GA?
 
What GA, you left it out.... are you saying Ben Franklin was the GA?
LOL, this is so like you Markk, did you actually read the above and come away with 100% proof of the stone in the hat... you got to be kidding.
Ralf...you have to focus and do a little reading. I started a thread on this subject I suggest you read it, test it, and follow it through the end, if we get that far.

I guess you do not understand what the Essays are, as posted on the church website...again they are GA approved responses to the tough "gospel" questions. And also again, the GA did this because there are LDS members that want to know the truth as it is, and not the false narrative that is taught, and as this subject show, you believe. In our discussion about Bushman, this is what he meant by the church teaching a false narrative.

This is from the "Gospel Topics Essay" introduction...(bold mine)

"Recognizing that today so much information about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can be obtained from questionable and often inaccurate sources, officials of the Church began in 2013 to publish straightforward, in-depth essays on a number of topics. The purpose of these essays, which have been approved by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has been to gather accurate information from many different sources and publications and place it in the Gospel Topics section of ChurchofJesusChrist.org, where the material can more easily be accessed and studied by Church members and other interested parties."
Ralf, it is certified History that Joseph Smith, in part, used a seer stone he found while digging, to translate the BoM, by putting the stone in his hat. The same stone that he used to find buried treasures for money.
 
So, are you agreeing with dberrie, that the "faith alone" Christians profess is a dead faith? A faith that does not lead to works?

For me--you, and the critics here add the question--" A faith that does not lead to works?"
It's time to realize "faith alone" does not include those works in obtaining eternal life. Not before, not after. Never. In fact--it's the very term "faith alone" which is used as a theology to denote the EXCLUSION of works in obtaining eternal life. All works. Before or after.

The " A faith that does not lead to works?" is just a smoke and mirror trail which attempts to cover the naked theology of a faith without works in obtaining eternal life--termed as "faith alone" theology.

You believe it however you will--but that's a fact.
 
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