God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.

[Richard7]

Ralf...you have to focus and do a little reading. I started a thread on this subject I suggest you read it, test it, and follow it through the end, if we get that far.

I guess you do not understand what the Essays are, as posted on the church website...again they are GA approved responses to the tough "gospel" questions. And also again, the GA did this because there are LDS members that want to know the truth as it is, and not the false narrative that is taught, and as this subject show, you believe. In our discussion about Bushman, this is what he meant by the church teaching a false narrative.

This is from the "Gospel Topics Essay" introduction...(bold mine)

"Recognizing that today so much information about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can be obtained from questionable and often inaccurate sources, officials of the Church began in 2013 to publish straightforward, in-depth essays on a number of topics. The purpose of these essays, which have been approved by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has been to gather accurate information from many different sources and publications and place it in the Gospel Topics section of ChurchofJesusChrist.org, where the material can more easily be accessed and studied by Church members and other interested parties."

Gospel Topics Essays

Gospel Topics Essays

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Ralf, it is certified History that Joseph Smith, in part, used a seer stone he found while digging, to translate the BoM, by putting the stone in his hat. The same stone that he used to find buried treasures for money.

Whoops!

”Nevertheless, the scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process. Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates. Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.The process as described brings to mind a passage from the Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...cs-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng


Chuckle.
1). scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process.
2). Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone)
3). many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer
stone in a hat.
4). Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.

Are you kidding me Markk, you have noting but admitted different accounts. You have zero, nada,
zippo

 

[Markk]

Whoops!

”Nevertheless, the scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process. Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates. Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.The process as described brings to mind a passage from the Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...cs-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng


Chuckle.
1). scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process.
2). Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone)
3). many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer
stone in a hat.
4). Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.

Are you kidding me Markk, you have noting but admitted different accounts. You have zero, nada,
zippo

Ralf…the GA admit he used the stone it is no longer and issue.

He used different methods according to the scribes (his wife and witnesses of the BoM)m and many testify of him using a seer stone in a hat. Go back and read what I wrote…he used different methods. Read th e last sentence Ralf…where the GA use the stone in that hat with “God preparing a stone..”

Straggly enough I was taught that Joesph would place the plates on the table, and there would be a curtain between he an dthe translator, and then he would translate. Yet to my surprise…there is no real count of this, and the plates are always be said to be wrapped in a towel. Apparently, there was a nail in the ceiling of the home, and someone made up the story that there must have been a curtain there.

Maybe you can give me the correct ways the BoM was translated…and cite your source.

This all again point to Elder Bushman’s statement that the church teaches a false narrative of LDS history. Ral, I don’t know too many Mormons now days that would deny JS did not put the stone he found in his hat to translate parts of the BoM.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf…the GA admit he used the stone it is no longer and issue.

He used different methods according to the scribes (his wife and witnesses of the BoM)m and many testify of him using a seer stone in a hat. Go back and read what I wrote…he used different methods. Read th e last sentence Ralf…where the GA use the stone in that hat with “God preparing a stone..”

Emmas account was many years later, she was there when JS fist used the spectacles .. she never witnessed him using the seer stone in the hat.

27 March 1870 (original spelling retained):

Now the first that my <husband> translated, [the book] was translated by use of the Urim, and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he used a small stone, not exactly, black, but was rather a dark color.”[1]

1. "Emma Smith Bidamon to Emma Pilgrim, 27 March 1870," in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 5 vols. (Salt Lake City: Signature Press, 1996-2003) 1:532.

So your not being accurate Markk, she never saw the stone in the hat.... try being more accurate.... Emma was fairly old when giving this account. If you can't be accurate on some things why should I trust your accuracy on anything.

Straggly enough I was taught that Joesph would place the plates on the table, and there would be a curtain between he an dthe translator, and then he would translate. Yet to my surprise…there is no real count of this, and the plates are always be said to be wrapped in a towel. Apparently, there was a nail in the ceiling of the home, and someone made up the story that there must have been a curtain there.

Maybe you can give me the correct ways the BoM was translated…and cite your source.

This all again point to Elder Bushman’s statement that the church teaches a false narrative of LDS history. Ral, I don’t know too many Mormons now days that would deny JS did not put the stone he found in his hat to translate parts of the BoM.

Elder Bushman we have discussed, he is a revisionist and uses bad source, some are good but he has put a lot of information in his book that come from enemies of the church or second and third hand accounts.. he is not a reliable historian.






Read it again Markk:

Chuckle.
1). scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process.
2). Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone)
3). many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer
stone in a hat.
4). Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.

 

[Aaron32]

For me--you, and the critics here add the question--" A faith that does not lead to works?"
It's time to realize "faith alone" does not include those works in obtaining eternal life. Not before, not after. Never. In fact--it's the very term "faith alone" which is used as a theology to denote the EXCLUSION of works in obtaining eternal life. All works. Before or after.

The " A faith that does not lead to works?" is just a smoke and mirror trail which attempts to cover the naked theology of a faith without works in obtaining eternal life--termed as "faith alone" theology.

You believe it however you will--but that's a fact.

Sorry. "Faith Alone" is a forbidden topic on this board now...thanks a lot.

True faith leads to works, but it's not the works that save us. I'm not sure why that's hard for you to grasp...but whatev.

 

[dberrie2020]

True faith leads to works, but it's not the works that save us. I'm not sure why that's hard for you to grasp...but whatev.

No one has argued that, but I understand why that needs to be interjected.

Those who interject that point might want to consider---that is just a diversion--and does nothing to address the point I made.

Which was the very reason I posted to you to begin with--to separate out that very diversion, which you re-introduce above-- from the reality, which no critic seems willing to face.

 

[Markk]

Elder Bushman we have discussed, he is a revisionist and uses bad source, some are good but he has put a lot of information in his book that come from enemies of the church or second and third hand accounts.. he is not a reliable historian.

Noted: IYO, one of the lead historians of the Joseph Smith Papers, a patriarch, and paid church employee...a man that knows many of the GA's at a personal level, is not to be trusted.

What exactly did he revise?

I offered you to go through Rough Stone Rolling...if you are going to throw the man under the bus, at least address the different narratives he is revising.

 

[Markk]

Chuckle.
1). scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process.
2). Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone)
3). many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer
stone in a hat.
4). Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.

Yes ralf, he put the stones into his hat...do you even read what you wrote?

 

[Markk]

Emmas account was many years later, she was there when JS fist used the spectacles .. she never witnessed him using the seer stone in the hat.

27 March 1870 (original spelling retained):

1. "Emma Smith Bidamon to Emma Pilgrim, 27 March 1870," in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 5 vols. (Salt Lake City: Signature Press, 1996-2003) 1:532.

So your not being accurate Markk, she never saw the stone in the hat.... try being more accurate.... Emma was fairly old when giving this account. If you can't be accurate on some things why should I trust your accuracy on anything.

Well Ralf...what is the age that people can't be trusted? Emma clearly agreed with Whitmer and Harris. The GA also agree with her as doe Fair and most every young Mormon today. It is amazing how you need this clear fact to not be true. Bushman was so correct.

 

[Aaron32]

No one has argued that, but I understand why that needs to be interjected.

Those who interject that point might want to consider---that is just a diversion--and does nothing to address the point I made.

Which was the very reason I posted to you to begin with--to separate out that very diversion, which you re-introduce above-- from the reality, which no critic seems willing to face.

All your doing is what Markk does but toward the Christian side. Mischaracterize the other side in hopes of trying to land a point. All it takes is listening, my friend.

 

[Richard7]

Yes ralf, he put the stones into his hat...do you even read what you wrote?

(either the interpreters or the seer stone) read it again good buddy... these come from the many various accounts, the Church has not admitted to any one of the various accounts... nice try.

 

[Richard7]

Well Ralf...what is the age that people can't be trusted? Emma clearly agreed with Whitmer and Harris. The GA also agree with her as doe Fair and most every young Mormon today. It is amazing how you need this clear fact to not be true. Bushman was so correct.

I'm sure you have 100% recall and remember every single episode in great detail of you life... Emma personally did not witness JS put a stone in the hat and may have just believed others...

JS himself, never admitted to seer stone in the hat... in fact he stated he translated by the power of God using the spectacles. You can continue to believe folks like Whitmer who never scribed for JS and later became a enemy to him...

 

[dberrie2020]

Straggly enough I was taught that Joesph would place the plates on the table, and there would be a curtain between he an dthe translator, and then he would translate. Yet to my surprise…there is no real count of this, and the plates are always be said to be wrapped in a towel. Apparently, there was a nail in the ceiling of the home, and someone made up the story that there must have been a curtain there.

Maybe you can give me the correct ways the BoM was translated…and cite your source.

I don't believe Martin Harris--who served as the early translator--made the story up:

“Harris declares,” reported one local newspaper, “that when he acted as amanuenses, and wrote the translation, as Smith dictated, such was his fear of the Divine displeasure, that a screen (sheet) was suspended between the prophet and himself.”39

I believe there is something to clarify here:

Martin Harris was a scribe during the early period of translation--where the 116 pages on manuscript were translated--and lost.

That was the period where the "interpreters" were used, commonly known as the Urim and Thummim--and the curtain(screen) was used to separate Martin Harris from Joseph Smith, when translating. The possible reason was--the plates were visible during that time, and the Lord had commanded Joseph Smith that no one was to see the plates--unless instructed to do so.

The Urim and Thummim was bulky and heavy--and was eventually replaced by a stone--which was reportedly placed in a hat--and the plates were not visible to the eyes during that time--eliminating the need for a curtain. All scribes from that point on--may not have used a curtain.

Joseph Smith progressed in his ability to receive revelation, from the Urim and Thummim--to the stone--and eventually his mind itself became the Urim and Thummim. Joseph Smith eventually needed no stone, or Urim or Thummim--or any other physical object, outside of his own mind--to receive revelation.

Now-- one of the reasons why the critics claim there was no Urim and Thummim used in the translation of the Book of Mormon, or that the pictures of Joseph Smith sitting at a table translating, is misleading--was because the Book of Mormon was re-translated through another line of plates, as the Book of Mormon we have today. The methodology of Urim and Thummim and the curtain is mission from the point of retranslation--and onward.

IOW--the entire Book of Mormon--as we have it today--was translated with the seer stone in a hat--in all probability, after the lost 116 pages. The portion which Martin Harris served as a scribe in the 116 pages--was lost, and not part of what we now have as The Book of Mormon.

That does not preclude the 116 pages of lost manuscript was not translated in part, or fully--using the Urim and Thummim, or that a curtain was not suspended between the translator and scribe--during the early translation of the 116 pages of the manuscript of the Book of Mormon plates.

 

[Richard7]

I don't believe Martin Harris--who served as the early translator--made the story up:

“Harris declares,” reported one local newspaper, “that when he acted as amanuenses, and wrote the translation, as Smith dictated, such was his fear of the Divine displeasure, that a screen (sheet) was suspended between the prophet and himself.”39

I believe there is something to clarify here:

Martin Harris was a scribe during the early period of translation--where the 116 pages on manuscript were translated--and lost.

That was the period where the "interpreters" were used, commonly known as the Urim and Thummim--and the curtain(screen) was used to separate Martin Harris from Joseph Smith, when translating. The possible reason was--the plates were visible during that time, and the Lord had commanded Joseph Smith that no one was to see the plates--unless instructed to do so.

The Urim and Thummim was bulky and heavy--and was eventually replaced by a stone--which was reportedly placed in a hat--and the plates were not visible to the eyes during that time--eliminating the need for a curtain. All scribes from that point on--may not have used a curtain.

Joseph Smith progressed in his ability to receive revelation, from the Urim and Thummim--to the stone--and eventually his mind itself became the Urim and Thummim. Joseph Smith eventually needed no stone, or Urim or Thummim--or any other physical object, outside of his own mind--to receive revelation.

Now-- one of the reasons why the critics claim there was no Urim and Thummim used in the translation of the Book of Mormon, or that the pictures of Joseph Smith sitting at a table translating, is misleading--was because the Book of Mormon was re-translated through another line of plates, as the Book of Mormon we have today. The methodology of Urim and Thummim and the curtain is mission from the point of retranslation--and onward.

IOW--the entire Book of Mormon--as we have it today--was translated with the seer stone in a hat--in all probability, after the lost 116 pages. The portion which Martin Harris served as a scribe in the 116 pages--was lost, and not part of what we now have as The Book of Mormon.

That does not preclude the 116 pages of lost manuscript was not translated in part, or fully--using the Urim and Thummim, or that a curtain was not suspended between the translator and scribe--during the early translation of the 116 pages of the manuscript of the Book of Mormon plates.

A point I wish to introduce, the plates and spectacles were taken away from JS right after the 116 pages went missing... nothing was mentioned of a seer stone also being taken by the angel... so if the stone was used it was way after Martin Harris was a scribe... Emma also never witnessed JS using a seer stone, she later recalled it was used but I believe she was repeating someone else's version.

 

[Markk]

I don't believe Martin Harris--who served as the early translator--made the story up:

“Harris declares,” reported one local newspaper, “that when he acted as amanuenses, and wrote the translation, as Smith dictated, such was his fear of the Divine displeasure, that a screen (sheet) was suspended between the prophet and himself.”39

I believe there is something to clarify here:

Martin Harris was a scribe during the early period of translation--where the 116 pages on manuscript were translated--and lost.

That was the period where the "interpreters" were used, commonly known as the Urim and Thummim--and the curtain(screen) was used to separate Martin Harris from Joseph Smith, when translating. The possible reason was--the plates were visible during that time, and the Lord had commanded Joseph Smith that no one was to see the plates--unless instructed to do so.

The Urim and Thummim was bulky and heavy--and was eventually replaced by a stone--which was reportedly placed in a hat--and the plates were not visible to the eyes during that time--eliminating the need for a curtain. All scribes from that point on--may not have used a curtain.

Joseph Smith progressed in his ability to receive revelation, from the Urim and Thummim--to the stone--and eventually his mind itself became the Urim and Thummim. Joseph Smith eventually needed no stone, or Urim or Thummim--or any other physical object, outside of his own mind--to receive revelation.

Now-- one of the reasons why the critics claim there was no Urim and Thummim used in the translation of the Book of Mormon, or that the pictures of Joseph Smith sitting at a table translating, is misleading--was because the Book of Mormon was re-translated through another line of plates, as the Book of Mormon we have today. The methodology of Urim and Thummim and the curtain is mission from the point of retranslation--and onward.

IOW--the entire Book of Mormon--as we have it today--was translated with the seer stone in a hat--in all probability, after the lost 116 pages. The portion which Martin Harris served as a scribe in the 116 pages--was lost, and not part of what we now have as The Book of Mormon.

That does not preclude the 116 pages of lost manuscript was not translated in part, or fully--using the Urim and Thummim, or that a curtain was not suspended between the translator and scribe--during the early translation of the 116 pages of the manuscript of the Book of Mormon plates.

Wow...I genuinely appreciate this post, I may not agree with it, but I appreciate the tone.

I looked for the citation for the Broome County CF, without luck.

Joseph Smith progressed in his ability to receive revelation, from the Urim and Thummim--to the stone--and eventually his mind itself became the Urim and Thummim. Joseph Smith eventually needed no stone, or Urim or Thummim--or any other physical object, outside of his own mind--to receive revelation.

Is this your opinion, or do you have a citation? It sounds like something similar to what Bushman wrote, but I will try to find it. What cf would you use to support your view; it is an interesting view.

My opinion is, and I believe a full study of Joseph and money digging shows that the seer stone was a prop or tool for his trade as a money digger. And, that money digging and the "mechanics" of it, not only formed the BoM, but also much of Mormonism.

 

[Aaron32]

IOW--the entire Book of Mormon--as we have it today--was translated with the seer stone in a hat--in all probability, after the lost 116 pages. The portion which Martin Harris served as a scribe in the 116 pages--was lost, and not part of what we now have as The Book of Mormon.

This same conclusion is made in the Gospel Topic Essays especially in regards of why a seer stone wasn't needed to translate the book of Abraham.

 

[Aaron32]

.My opinion is, and I believe a full study of Joseph and money digging shows that the seer stone was a prop or tool for his trade as a money digger. And, that money digging and the "mechanics" of it, not only formed the BoM, but also much of Mormonism.

On the surface level, a case could be made for this - if one never actually read the Book of Mormon or identified those precepts that draw us closer to God.
Ironically enough, the more Joseph Smith sought to make (what could be seen as) power plays, the more it turned to his determent (KSS, Nauvoo Expositor, polygamy).
It's quite possible people were converted to the religion, and not to him personally.
Clearly, taking advantage of others faithful nature and willful believing-ness to their own detriment still goes on today. But eventually, with enough experience, people can discern truth versus manipulation.
The resulting stated beliefs and actions of Cowdery, the Whitmer brothers, and other Book of Mormon witnesses, after their "dissention" illustrate to me that the reality and message of the Book of Mormon transcended any plans of a given leader seeking "unrighteous dominion".

 

[Markk]

On the surface level, a case could be made for this - if one never actually read the Book of Mormon or identified those precepts that draw us closer to God.
Ironically enough, the more Joseph Smith sought to make (what could be seen as) power plays, the more it turned to his determent (KSS, Nauvoo Expositor, polygamy).
It's quite possible people were converted to the religion, and not to him personally.
Clearly, taking advantage of others faithful nature and willful believing-ness to their own detriment still goes on today. But eventually, with enough experience, people can discern truth versus manipulation.
The resulting stated beliefs and actions of Cowdery, the Whitmer brothers, and other Book of Mormon witnesses, after their "dissention" illustrate to me that the reality and message of the Book of Mormon transcended any plans of a given leader seeking "unrighteous dominion".

What is interesting is that there was in Joseph's "neighborhood" and community, or gang of money diggers. The Chase's being maybe the most prominent. The "gang" would go out on "digs," fight over possession of the seer stone, and Joseph was more of less the leader as the main "seer." Time after time they would fail to find their treasures, yet they were still draw to Joseph the man, again even though he failed every time. He commanded the room for sure.

Even today, after his death he is the keystone to the different "Mormon" faiths. You can see a real blind allegiance to him even here...and the church for long protected his image, and today, they are slowly losing that narrative, which is what Bushman was talking about at the fireside.

The more one digs into this, no pun intended, the more one sees a clear connection with the money digging theme. Obviously, most saints don't get the connection in that they have no clue he was a money digger, nor do they know what money digging was as a profession," but it is deeply, deeply, engrained in Mormonism.

This primary song, which is a "kids classic" in the church...or at least was when I was a member, shows this very well.

The golden plates lay hidden
Deep in the mountainside,
Until God found one faithful,
In whom he could confide.

2A record made by Nephi,
Written in days of old;
Now, in the Book of Mormon,
The story is retold.


From the story of first I believe it was a spirit guarding the plates to an angle to Moroni...which all ties into spirits guarding the treasure Joseph would see in his seer stone. To all GA to this day, being sustained a "Seers" compliments the Money digger theme.

Like I have written here there is so much written on this it is hard to put in all together in a context of a form like this, but hopefully we can get into some of the details I described above.

Hope fully we can also get into the statements and actions of the witnesses after they left the church. That also is a great study.

Even in the PoGP...it shows the money digging theme...most often Joseph would tell the person that hired him, or the gang he was digging with, that the treasure was moved or slipped further down...because they spirit guarding the treasure was upset with the may something was done in the process.

Joseph Smith—History 1:51–53, 59

Pearl of Great Price

51 Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.
52 Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.
53 I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger, and was again informed that the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived, neither would it, until four years from that time; but he told me that I should come to that place precisely in one year from that time, and that he would there meet with me, and that I should continue to do so until the time should come for obtaining the plates.
59 At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: that I should be responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them, they should be protected.

 

[dberrie2020]

Wow...I genuinely appreciate this post, I may not agree with it, but I appreciate the tone.

Well, Markk--if you would drop your extremism--you might receive more of that tone.

I looked for the citation for the Broome County CF, without luck.

Is this your opinion, or do you have a citation? It sounds like something similar to what Bushman wrote, but I will try to find it. What cf would you use to support your view; it is an interesting view.

It's my personal view--it seems to be shared by some, from what I read. For sure--Joseph Smith progressed from one point of receiving revelation, to another point--where the props were replaced by his own mind.

For me--that seems to be the potential for all men--where we not only receive the medium to revelation--but become the medium of revelation from God.

My opinion is, and I believe a full study of Joseph and money digging shows that the seer stone was a prop or tool for his trade as a money digger. And, that money digging and the "mechanics" of it, not only formed the BoM, but also much of Mormonism.

There is the extremism. I have no idea how you relate such things to your conclusions.

So--did Joseph Smith use the Urim and Thummim for things which they were not designed for? I believe so. The early period might well be punctuated with those kinds of things--as is endemic to human nature. I believe God allowed it follow it's course, and once Joseph Smith saw, and was convinced--it led to unfruitful results--Joseph Smith repented, and the misuse of those things God had given him fell dormant, and Joseph Smith then was prepared for the translation. That makes perfect sense to me--and the course you and I follow also--as to the pattern.

There was a period after the 1826 arrest--where we find the stories of Joseph Smith's use of the Urim and Thummim for purposes other than God's will--ceased, or became obscure, as to the history. Joseph Smith learned an invaluable lesson on that arrest.

I find nothing in all those stories which isn't compatible with human nature. Joseph Smith was a boy wanting to prove his claim--and reached far beyond what God had warned him about. That is true for most all of us.

I also believe the stories were greatly exaggerated by some--so it's hard to separate out the truth from fiction.

This is the truth--he brought forth the Book of Mormon, after Joseph Smith was prepared for that purpose.

What followed was also truly amazing:

SECTION 110

Visions manifested to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery in the temple at Kirtland, Ohio, April 3, 1836. The occasion was that of a Sabbath day meeting. Joseph Smiths history states: In the afternoon, I assisted the other Presidents in distributing the Lords Supper to the Church, receiving it from the Twelve, whose privilege it was to officiate at the sacred desk this day. After having performed this service to my brethren, I retired to the pulpit, the veils being dropped, and bowed myself, with Oliver Cowdery, in solemn and silent prayer. After rising from prayer, the following vision was opened to both of us.


D&C 110
1 "The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is replete with those kings of events--as is God's church throughout the history of mankind.

 

[Richard7]

Well, Markk--if you would drop your extremism--you might receive more of that tone.



It's my personal view--it seems to be shared by some, from what I read. For sure--Joseph Smith progressed from one point of receiving revelation, to another point--where the props were replaced by his own mind.

For me--that seems to be the potential for all men--where we not only receive the medium to revelation--but become the medium of revelation from God.



There is the extremism. I have no idea how you relate such things to your conclusions.

So--did Joseph Smith use the Urim and Thummim for things which they were not designed for? I believe so. The early period might well be punctuated with those kinds of things--as is endemic to human nature. I believe God allowed it follow it's course, and once Joseph Smith saw, and was convinced--it led to unfruitful results--Joseph Smith repented, and the misuse of those things God had given him fell dormant, and Joseph Smith then was prepared for the translation. That makes perfect sense to me--and the course you and I follow also--as to the pattern.

There was a period after the 1826 arrest--where we find the stories of Joseph Smith's use of the Urim and Thummim for purposes other than God's will--ceased, or became obscure, as to the history. Joseph Smith learned an invaluable lesson on that arrest.

I find nothing in all those stories which isn't compatible with human nature. Joseph Smith was a boy wanting to prove his claim--and reached far beyond what God had warned him about. That is true for most all of us.

I also believe the stories were greatly exaggerated by some--so it's hard to separate out the truth from fiction.

This is the truth--he brought forth the Book of Mormon, after Joseph Smith was prepared for that purpose.

What followed was also truly amazing:

SECTION 110

Visions manifested to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery in the temple at Kirtland, Ohio, April 3, 1836. The occasion was that of a Sabbath day meeting. Joseph Smiths history states: In the afternoon, I assisted the other Presidents in distributing the Lords Supper to the Church, receiving it from the Twelve, whose privilege it was to officiate at the sacred desk this day. After having performed this service to my brethren, I retired to the pulpit, the veils being dropped, and bowed myself, with Oliver Cowdery, in solemn and silent prayer. After rising from prayer, the following vision was opened to both of us.


D&C 110
1 "The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is replete with those kings of events--as is God's church throughout the history of mankind.

You and I are usually on the same page, but I respectively disagree that JS used the Urim and Thummim for money digging.

 

[Richard7]

What is interesting is that there was in Joseph's "neighborhood" and community, or gang of money diggers. The Chase's being maybe the most prominent. The "gang" would go out on "digs," fight over possession of the seer stone, and Joseph was more of less the leader as the main "seer." Time after time they would fail to find their treasures, yet they were still draw to Joseph the man, again even though he failed every time. He commanded the room for sure.

Please show me the story about the Chase's... where did you get it... your very lacking in showing your sources and I often have to wonder why. Do you have a witness that you can point too or just come off site anti-mormon nonsense

Even today, after his death he is the keystone to the different "Mormon" faiths. You can see a real blind allegiance to him even here...and the church for long protected his image, and today, they are slowly losing that narrative, which is what Bushman was talking about at the fireside.

The more one digs into this, no pun intended, the more one sees a clear connection with the money digging theme. Obviously, most saints don't get the connection in that they have no clue he was a money digger, nor do they know what money digging was as a profession," but it is deeply, deeply, engrained in Mormonism.

This primary song, which is a "kids classic" in the church...or at least was when I was a member, shows this very well.

The golden plates lay hidden
Deep in the mountainside,
Until God found one faithful,
In whom he could confide.

2A record made by Nephi,
Written in days of old;
Now, in the Book of Mormon,
The story is retold.

Chuckle, what above proves the point of a seer stone?

From the story of first I believe it was a spirit guarding the plates to an angle to Moroni...which all ties into spirits guarding the treasure Joseph would see in his seer stone. To all GA to this day, being sustained a "Seers" compliments the Money digger theme.

Like I have written here there is so much written on this it is hard to put in all together in a context of a form like this, but hopefully we can get into some of the details I described above.

Hope fully we can also get into the statements and actions of the witnesses after they left the church. That also is a great study.

Even in the PoGP...it shows the money digging theme...most often Joseph would tell the person that hired him, or the gang he was digging with, that the treasure was moved or slipped further down...because they spirit guarding the treasure was upset with the may something was done in the process.

Joseph Smith—History 1:51–53, 59

Joseph Smith - History... what is the point of the reference to any of the above you argued... I read it all as I had in the past, what connection are you trying to make Markk.???? Nothing about he would see in his seer stone. Then you claim he is sustained as a seer which complements (brings to perfection ) the money digging theme... you're joking of course... my goodness how low have you stopped to revise Joseph Smiths History..



https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng&id=51-53,59#p51

Pearl of Great Price

51 Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.
52 Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.
53 I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger, and was again informed that the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived, neither would it, until four years from that time; but he told me that I should come to that place precisely in one year from that time, and that he would there meet with me, and that I should continue to do so until the time should come for obtaining the plates.
59 At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: that I should be responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them, they should be protected.

Nothing there Markk, nice try.