Magdalena
Well-known member
Nice try, Ralf.Nope, it definitely was a suggestion.... are you to say you never asked anyone to start a new thread? chuckle. Awe, yes or no, easy question.
Nice try, Ralf.Nope, it definitely was a suggestion.... are you to say you never asked anyone to start a new thread? chuckle. Awe, yes or no, easy question.
I tried, and there is a answer if one want to do introspection and then accuse someone of doing exactly what you have done... I see no denial from you Magdalena... chuckle.Nice try, Ralf.
You’re trying to divert attention away from the question again, Ralf. I won’t play those games with you. You were the one who brought up Fanny Alger.I tried, and there is a answer if one want to do introspection and then accuse someone of doing exactly what you have done... I see no denial from you Magdalena... chuckle.
Well I called you out and you refused to answer after accusing me of not staying on topic... simple question, have your ever varied off topic.You’re trying to divert attention away from the question again, Ralf. I won’t play those games with you. You were the one who brought up Fanny Alger.
Awe, yes or not Magdalena. A yes or not is much better than silence.Nice try, Ralf.
Ralf, I don't think anyone even knows what position you are debating? I am not making it about you, I am asking what you position is. Please present what you current position is. Mine is clear, that the church teaches that both the interpreter and a seer stone were used to translate the Book of Mormon, while placed in a hat, pressed to Josephs face.Well its not about me...."I feel for him in a way, his testimony is clearly fractured, I think we both remember the feeling...but he is his own worst enemy in not being able to separate himself from what he needs to believe and from what the church actually teaches. I view his attitude as a plea for assurance that his world is okay...yet our friend can't accept the clear history of the translation process.
Ralf, I doubt that there are no "folks" following this conversation...there a very small audience and we are all regulars. But what is again ironic is you can't even assert your position.Notice folks, when you obviously can't stay on track and are losing the battle they turn to going after the debater but not the debate itself... chuckle.
LOL...what? So what you are saying is that you have a extreme case of confirmation bias Ralf. But tell me these things that you have found that I can use to present by point of view. Do you mean things like Emma working in the same room with Joseph and Oliver, and not a barn? Ralf, you don't even read what the church teaches, let alone the mounds of evidence that are out there, I need you to focus on the basics first, in what the church teaches...which is like pulling teeth.I found stuff that you could even use but you haven't because you don't know where to look and only desire the easy way out.
I posted what you posted and it surely was not about the topic, it was all about me and my testimony being fractured and me being my own worst enemy...Ralf, I don't think anyone even knows what position you are debating? I am not making it about you, I am asking what you position is. Please present what you current position is. Mine is clear, that the church teaches that both the interpreter and a seer stone were used to translate the Book of Mormon, while placed in a hat, pressed to Josephs face.
Ralf, I doubt that there are no "folks" following this conversation...there a very small audience and we are all regulars. But what is again ironic is you can't even assert your position.
Ralf, this is not even a debate, my position has not changed, nor will it, unless the church changes their current teaching. You are your own worse enemy in that you just bloviate without reading what others say, and sadly what you paste. Ralf, just sate what you assertion is now, what is your position?I posted what you posted and it surely was not about the topic, it was all about me and my testimony being fractured and me being my own worst enemy...
Markk, you just lost the debate by coming after me, you have admitted by silence and lack of sources you can't find first hand accounts to make a solid case on.... you weakness is obvious, I really think its time for you to cut and run good buddy...
LOL critical thinking? Ralf you can't even define or sate you opinion is...let alone enter into critical thought.Well, it's obvious by the topics I started I'm not talking about Christmas, Halloween, etc, etc.... The topic is the start of a debate on the OP, if you can't see from my post what my issues are then I'm sorry for your stigma (humiliation) and complete discomfort with not being able to understand where I'm coming from... Please show how I can help your unease with critical thinking... chuckle.
Ralf, this is not even a debate, my position has not changed, nor will it, unless the church changes their current teaching. You are your own worse enemy in that you just bloviate without reading what others say, and sadly what you paste. Ralf, just sate what you assertion is now, what is your position?
One more time...the LDS church currently teaches that the BoM was translated by either the Interpreter or by a seer stone places in Josephs hat, with his face pressed against the rim. What is your position?
Again, why don't your start a thread just about me, your constantly bailing and its obvious when you continue to blast me which make it obvious you have given up on proving me wrong...And BTW, it is clear you are in a faith crisis and your testimony is fractures and upset that your church is hemorrhaging (your words).
Ralf, this is not even a debate, my position has not changed, nor will it, unless the church changes their current teaching. You are your own worse enemy in that you just bloviate without reading what others say, and sadly what you paste. Ralf, just sate what you assertion is now, what is your position?
One more time...the LDS church currently teaches that the BoM was translated by either the Interpreter or by a seer stone places in Josephs hat, with his face pressed against the rim. What is your position?
Yes the Church is having a big problem with faith crisis and fake historians, progressives and revisionist.And BTW, it is clear you are in a faith crisis and your testimony is fractures and upset that your church is hemorrhaging (your words).
Me again Markk, wow! folks notice how its always about me and my weaknesses or inadequacies. Yes I admit that Markk may have more education, may be smarter and all those nice things.... but the truth is not decided by intelligence as the scriptures often state. Intellectual disability in Christian thought is so obvious for reasons they do not acknowledge that all truths come from God....LOL critical thinking? Ralf you can't even define or sate you opinion is...let alone enter into critical thought.
What is your position on how Joseph translated the BoM and the instruments he used?
So you never asked someone to start another thread, interesting non answer....You’re trying to divert attention away from the question again, Ralf. I won’t play those games with you. You were the one who brought up Fanny Alger.
Ralf, focus. If you are going to make assertion or accusation someone is wrong, then it is your duty to, if you are honest, is to provide the correct information.Why do you always make this about me Markk, shoulder up and dig deeper good buddy.... I'm not impressed at all with the deflection you constantly use to deflect away from the topic... if you have evidence and even ever want to respond to my many quotes, well do so please.
Ralf, the church teaches that there are several reliable accounts, David W., Emma, Martin, Oliver and a few others...It also teaches that Joseph several seer stones and even have at least three or four in their possession.Urim and Thummim seer stones by some accounts... what is it Markk a magic seer stone, two stones, transparent stones etc, etc. Which one do you want to use good buddy? That's the issue and problem Markk, which person, or persons are giving the correct accounts...
Ralf, you are in control...you want to say everyone is wrong, yet you can't elaborate why, or what is IYO correct?ain, why don't your start a thread just about me, your constantly bailing and its obvious when you continue to blast me which make it obvious you have given up on proving me wrong...
To me, it's like having my mobile phone in my hand. And I can get messages on it that you can't see.No what is your opinion, one magic stone, two stones, some say magic seer stone other say Urim and Thummim, or spectacles.
Can't you see that Pres. Nelson was right, there are many different accounts... all you did was pick one.
Mostly based on David Whitmer
Ralf, I am just asking you to state your opinion about the how the BoM was translated...we all get that the church teaches it was by the gift and power of God, but it also teaches it was by means of stones in his hat, either the interpreters, or the seer stones.Me again Markk, wow! folks notice how its always about me and my weaknesses or inadequacies. Yes I admit that Markk may have more education, may be smarter and all those nice things.... but the truth is not decided by intelligence as the scriptures often state. Intellectual disability in Christian thought is so obvious for reasons they do not acknowledge that all truths come from God....
Ralf, I am just asking you to state your opinion about the how the BoM was translated...we all get that the church teaches it was by the gift and power of God, but it also teaches it was by means of stones in his hat, either the interpreters, or the seer stones.
Me and you have similar educations...we are both carpenters and contractors. The difference is that I read and study, or at least try to.. You do not. Ralf, the church's teaching is clear on this, yet you deny it because? Fill in the blank________________________.
Do you know that folks like Bushman, and The Givens have flown across the country, on private jets furnished by rich Mormons like the Hunters, giving firesides to those that might be having a faith crisis opposite of the one you are having? There are basically three groups of LDS members who are struggling:
Not old narrative Markk, we are the traditionalist and have all been witnessed too by the Holy Ghost as to the truth of Mormonism, get back to me when the church starts marrying same sex and women hold the Priesthood... chuckle. DB can believe what he wants, I did the research and study and have noticed your failure to prove me wrong...1. The first is folks like you, the grandma's and grandpa's, you have accepted the old narrative and are struggling with the things like we are discussing here. Honestly Ralf, the stone in the hat is nothing compared to things that actually took place. You will eventually die off, and the church will be as gentle as they can for your sakes.
2. The ones that can accept a stone in the hat type of teachings, but just want to know if everything is alright, and will be okay. These are folks that need the church, but do not care much about doctrine or history, they just need the fellowship and perceived hope. I would put DB in this category, he agrees with me 100% that after the 116 pages, the BoM that currently exists was translated 100% by the Seer stone in the hat, which most historians would agree with.
3. The ones like Bushman and Givens, that need the truth, and can't accept old narrative...they believe it is the only way the church can survive in the long run. They seek and find the truth, accept it, and make it work in their faith mindset.
Would you have been one of the early Mormons who couldn’t let go of polygamy when the prophet had a “revelation” that told him to stop? Or would you have clung to the old traditional beliefs?How many time do I have to post it Markk, you are not really reading my replies...
For someone who claim to be well read, you surely have read the wrong stuff... so why did you leave Markk, what books did you read that started you faith crisis? or did you just not buy into the story all along and never really felt anything or even tried too... And where did the BoM come from, you and I need to maybe debate and find out where you at on this.... what say you Markk, that ought to be a great debate and maybe something you can dig deeper into then the lame excuses you give for finding fact and evidence that support you magic seer stone claims.
There is a utube with Bushman and a bunch of members all in someones house doing a lecture by Bushman... he is a real prize and was tutored by Lenard Arrington who is a well know progressive and revisionist...
Not old narrative Markk, we are the traditionalist and have all been witnessed too by the Holy Ghost as to the truth of Mormonism, get back to me when the church starts marrying same sex and women hold the Priesthood... chuckle. DB can believe what he wants, I did the research and study and have noticed your failure to prove me wrong...
Bushman, etc are doing damage to the Church, just don't see it themselves and think they are being directed by God...
Doctrine and Covenants 50:2–3. “Satan hath sought to deceive you”
The Lord warned the Saints that there are false spirits on the earth who, along with Satan, seek to deceive and overthrow God’s children. President Boyd K. Packer (1924–2015) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles cautioned Church members to not be fooled by counterfeit feelings or false spirits:
“Be ever on guard lest you be deceived by inspiration from an unworthy source. You can be given false spiritual messages. There are counterfeit spirits just as there are counterfeit angels. (See Moro. 7:17.) …