God draws, chooses, appoints, elects, predestines, causes, wills, grants, puts, removes, makes alive, etc........

Theo1689

Well-known member
I speak English well, and i assume the translators know Greek better than you, so I can trust the way the translators express the thoughts in English. And I can break down the English quite well.

<Chuckle>

So you deny the Geek by referring to your limited understanding of English?

The "this" (that is referring to the "gift" is NEUTER.
"Salvation" is MASCULINE.

How do you explain this obvious discrepancy?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
...

Man you're fast; you corrected the Spelling before I posted it. The following is how it appeared...

Copy and Paste I speak English well, and i assume the translator know Greek better than you, so I can trust the way the translators express the thoughts in English. And I can break down the English quite well.
This is sad. You want to talk about typos instead of the substance.
Yes, I am a poor typist. What does that have to do with the substance of what i said.
You smell blood so you join the pack
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
And just for clarification, many non-Calvinists "redefine" the term, "draw" (Greek, "helkuo"), to try to force it to fit their unBiblical doctrines.

"Drawing" is completely efficacious, it does not fail. It is not a mere "wooing", or "coaxing", or something so impotent.

Here is how the term is used in English, and in Scripture:

Here is a list of expressions which use the term, "draw":

"draw a gun"
"with-drawl"
"draw a sword"
"draw blood"
"draw blinds"
"draw interest"
"draw curtains"
"draw a breath"
"draw a cheque"
"the honey drew flies";
“the light drew moths”;
"the enemy drew fire";
"horse-drawn carriage";
"draw the short straw"
"draw on a bank account";
"draw water from a well"
"amount of power drawn";
"draw a card from a deck”
"draw a bow" (archery);
"the college drew students";
"the performance drew cheers";
"draw-er" (you drag/pull it open);
"draw" (winning ticket) for a 50/50 draw;
"the prisoner was drawn and quartered";
“draw on a cigarette" ("take a draw");

I notice that none of these expressions make any sense if we replace the term, "draw" with "woo" or "coax". You don't "woo" a playing card out of a hand. You don't "coax" a sword out of its sheath.



I took it upon myself to study the usage of the Greek term, "ἑλκύω" (translated as "draw" in John 6:44), in the Greek New Testament and in the Septuagint ("LXX", the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament). This is what I found:

Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω>it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?
You already know this because I have told you many times.
You are focusing on the literal meaning of draw. But the text in question uses a metaphoric meaning.
A moth is drawn to a flame. This does not even imply that the moth is physically dragged to the flame.
The moth is attracted to the light. The moth is not dragged to the light.
It is the same for us and God. It is not a physical dragging, it is a spiritual attraction
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I speak English well, and i assume the translators know Greek better than you, so I can trust the way the translators express the thoughts in English. And I can break down the English quite well.

This is a worthless cop-out, Seth...

You use a statement like that to try to justify your misunderstanding of the English, and try to claim your understanding is supported by the "knowledge" of the "Greek translators".

You're also contradicting yourself, since you constantly try to "correct" the English by appealing to the "Greek", even though you have ZERO understanding of the Greek.

You remind me of KJV-Only Steven Anderson. He "defines" the Greek based on how the KJV translated a particular word, which is begging the question.
 

civic

Well-known member
This is sad. You want to talk about typos instead of the substance.
Yes, I am a poor typist. What does that have to do with the substance of what i said.
You smell blood so you join the pack
It goes hand in hand with your flippant way you treat the scriptures as well not even quoting the right verse with the words. And the lack of exegesis in each and every post as well. Greek is one of, if not the most precise languages in the world. So if your English is not precise then there is no way you could possibly grasp the Greek.

BTW- seth why don't you take just one passage in the OP and give us your EXEGESIS proving the OP to be wrong.

hope this helps !!!
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You already know this because I have told you many times.

<Chuckle>
You have an overinflated view of your opinion, Seth.
Just because you "have told" me something, doesn't make it true.
That's the problem. You refuse to accept correction.
Now kindly get over yourself.

You are focusing on the literal meaning of draw. But the text in question uses a metaphoric meaning.

And that doesn't affect the efficacy of the drawing.
It only affects whether there is an actual rope, string, or cable attached, or not.

So you are making a distinction without a difference.
And I have told you THAT many times.
Which is why we keep going back and forth.
Because you refuse to accept correction.

A moth is drawn to a flame. This does not even imply that the moth is physically dragged to the flame.
The moth is attracted to the light. The moth is not dragged to the light.

That's why the term "draw" is used rather than "dragged".
But the efficacy is the same.
The moth STTILL came to the flame. UNFAILINGLY.

It is the same for us and God. It is not a physical dragging, it is a spiritual attraction

... which is still 100% efficacious.
 

civic

Well-known member
people should note that i quoted a verse, and nothing but the verse and Civic calls it Pelagianism.
People should note that when I quote scripture that @Sethproton never addresses a single one with an exegetical response. His responses are always one of 4 things:

1- a question or two
2- blames calvinists
3- uses his own ideas without exegesis
4- forgets what he previously said which contradicts his response

hope this helps !!!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
<Chuckle>
You have an overinflated view of your opinion, Seth.
Just because you "have told" me something, doesn't make it true.
That's the problem. You refuse to accept correction.
Now kindly get over yourself.



And that doesn't affect the efficacy of the drawing.
It only affects whether there is an actual rope, string, or cable attached, or not.

So you are making a distinction without a difference.
And I have told you THAT many times.
Which is why we keep going back and forth.
Because you refuse to accept correction.



That's why the term "draw" is used rather than "dragged".
But the efficacy is the same.
The moth STTILL came to the flame. UNFAILINGLY.



... which is still 100% efficacious.
This post has an error in it which, if addressed, could help clear up the doctrine.
When a moth is figuratively drawn to a light, the moth may or may not physically reach the light, but it is still drawn. The idea that the drawing has to be complete, is not inherent in the word.
For instance a man can be drawn to a beautiful woman, but his wife will hinder his closeness to the woman.
The Greek word is about the process not the destination
 

civic

Well-known member
This post has an error in it which, if addressed, could help clear up the doctrine.
When a moth is figuratively drawn to a light, the moth may or may not physically reach the light, but it is still drawn. The idea that the drawing has to be complete, is not inherent in the word.
For instance a man can be drawn to a beautiful woman, but his wife will hinder his closeness to the woman.
The Greek word is about the process not the destination
You conflate lust with drawing, what a JOKE and MOCKERY you make out of the scriptures.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
This post has an error in it which, if addressed, could help clear up the doctrine.

No, Seth, there is no "error" in my post.
Simply rejecting the TRUTH of my post doesn't mean it contains "error".

When a moth is figuratively drawn to a light, the moth may or may not physically reach the light, but it is still drawn.

Wrong again.
If the moth is "drawn" to a light, it means that the moth will come as close as it reasonably can, considerations such as plate glass in the way (if the light is inside a house), or the heat emanating from it.

If a moth "sees" a light in the distance, but doesn't approach it, it can't be said that the moth is "drawn" to the light.

The proximity issue is much the same as a crowd being "drawn" to a concert. If they go to the audience area and stay, they are drawn, even if they don't go all the way onto the stage. But those who just pass by, with an inquisitive look, or those who come somewhat near, to see what's what, before leaving, are not "drawn" to them.

The idea that the drawing has to be complete, is not inherent in the word.

Yeah, actually it is.

I listed about FIFTY examples of "draw" in a previous post.
And NONE of them would be valid if it were not "complete".

You cannot say you "drew" a breath, if no air entered.
You cannot say you "drew" your gun, if it got stuck in the holster.
You cannot say you "drew" the blinds, if you slipped and let go of them before they closed.
And so on.

You give ZERO evidence for your bankrupt claims.
You simply make empty, worthless assertions.

For instance a man can be drawn to a beautiful woman, but his wife will hinder his closeness to the woman.

In order for you to make a valid point, you would have to unpack it.
Did he merely glance at her and appreciate her beauty? That's not "drawn".
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sethproton said:
For instance a man can be drawn to a beautiful woman, but his wife will hinder his closeness to the woman.
The Greek word is about the process not the destination
You conflate lust with drawing, what a JOKE and MOCKERY you make out of the scriptures.

Are you kidding me?!

Did he actually try to make a comment about what "the Greek word is about"?
Which his 100% lack of knowledge of Greek?

He was smart for deleting it before I saw it.

Especially considering he REFUSES to address his ERROR about the word "it" in 1 Cor. 15:42ff.
 

civic

Well-known member
...

Man you're fast; you corrected the Spelling before I posted it. The following is how it appeared...

Copy and Paste I speak English well, and i assume the translator know Greek better than you, so I can trust the way the translators express the thoughts in English. And I can break down the English quite well.
Indeed that happens with said poster quite often which is why when I get a quote from him I immediately quote a response before the edits occur. :)
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
You already know this because I have told you many times.
You are focusing on the literal meaning of draw. But the text in question uses a metaphoric meaning.
A moth is drawn to a flame. This does not even imply that the moth is physically dragged to the flame.
The moth is attracted to the light. The moth is not dragged to the light.
It is the same for us and God. It is not a physical dragging, it is a spiritual attraction
Who said it was physical?

Can you literally be drawn spiritually??
 

civic

Well-known member
SOVEREIGN GOD ACTS FIRST. He always did & always will.
1. God took the initiative to call Abraham
2. God chose King David
3. God chose all the Apostles
4. God chose Apostle Paul
5. God chose the lost sheep like you & me to be His followers. He chose us believers before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world…. in love.) The list is very very long in the Scripture.
🩸John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.iMac.

hope this helps !!!
 

Tercon

Well-known member
The entire salvation process is the Lords from start to finish !

It sure is, right from our beginning in His believing in us and our faith, to all His promises they all originate in Him.

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Yup, He believes in all believers, that's how He appoints the believer. And if we believe in accordance with the Father, then everything He has for His children is ours.

John 6:37,44-45
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Yup, whoever believes what He believes, He draws them and "will certainly not cast out", because if it is ONLY the believer that "shall all be taught of God", they believed in accordance in and with God, because they have "heard and learned from the Father".

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

John 12:30-32
Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.

Helkuo is used in John 21:6 to refer to a heavy net full of fish being dragged to the shore. In John 18:10 we see Peter drawing his sword, and in Acts 16:19 helkuo is used to describe Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace before the rulers. Clearly, the net had no part in its being drawn to the shore, Peter’s sword had no part in being drawn, and Paul and Silas did not drag themselves to the marketplace. The same can be said of God’s drawing of some to salvation. Some come willingly, and some are dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come, although we have no part in the drawing. got questions

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Ezekiel 26:25-27
I will
sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you…27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you
a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 11:8
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 13:48 “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Colossians 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5
He saved us
, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

James 1:18
Of his own will
he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

There are many other scriptures to add to these but this should be enough to suffice that Salvation as the Bible declares in many places is of, by and through the Lord alone, not man. God is the One who is active causing all the things in the OP title.

hope this helps !!!

If the BELIEVER'S "SOVEREIGN GOD ACTS FIRST" and "He always did & always will", then He was the first to BELIEVE as well.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Who said it was physical?

Can you literally be drawn spiritually??
When the other poster lays out the meanings of the word. he focuses on the literal meanings of the word, not the figurative meaning,
Literally the word means dragged. Figuratively it means attracted

Your question about being drawn spiritually in a literal way should be answered "yes." You are literally attracted to God.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
No, Seth, there is no "error" in my post.
Simply rejecting the TRUTH of my post doesn't mean it contains "error".



Wrong again.
If the moth is "drawn" to a light, it means that the moth will come as close as it reasonably can, considerations such as plate glass in the way (if the light is inside a house), or the heat emanating from it.

If a moth "sees" a light in the distance, but doesn't approach it, it can't be said that the moth is "drawn" to the light.

The proximity issue is much the same as a crowd being "drawn" to a concert. If they go to the audience area and stay, they are drawn, even if they don't go all the way onto the stage. But those who just pass by, with an inquisitive look, or those who come somewhat near, to see what's what, before leaving, are not "drawn" to them.



Yeah, actually it is.

I listed about FIFTY examples of "draw" in a previous post.
And NONE of them would be valid if it were not "complete".

You cannot say you "drew" a breath, if no air entered.
You cannot say you "drew" your gun, if it got stuck in the holster.
You cannot say you "drew" the blinds, if you slipped and let go of them before they closed.
And so on.

You give ZERO evidence for your bankrupt claims.
You simply make empty, worthless assertions.



In order for you to make a valid point, you would have to unpack it.
Did he merely glance at her and appreciate her beauty? That's not "drawn".
What you are confused about with "drawing" is context. The verb is about the action of dragging or figuratively being attracted to,
Your chose contexts where drawing is completely done to reach the goal. But the word itself is not defined as "reaching a goal" it is just the action of dragging/drawing.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What you are confused about with "drawing" is context.

Seth, you claim you don't read my posts because you perceive "attitude" in them.
Well, if you don't like receiving "attitude", then maybe YOU shouldn't be throwing around "attitude" of your own.

I'm not "confused" about ANYTHING.
You are simply wrong.
And the issue is, that you have ZERO knowledge of the Greek, and I am fluent in it.
So if anyone is "confused", that would be YOU, not me.

If you want to share your "opinion" on something (wrong as it is), then you should label it as such, "this is my opinion".

The verb is about the action of dragging or figuratively being attracted to,
Your chose contexts where drawing is completely done to reach the goal. But the word itself is not defined as "reaching a goal" it is just the action of dragging/drawing.

Yes, this is your usual errant retort.
But the issue is that the "drawing" is ALWAYS efficacious. Something drawn ALWAYS reaches it's "goal". Otherwise you can't accurately say it was "drawn".

I gave 25 examples of "drawing" in English, ALL coming to completion.
And I gave 21 examples of "drawing" in Greek, ALL coming to completion.

You have given ZERO examples of "drawing" where they did NOT reach the "goal".
So your self-serving redefinition is simply FALSE.

Further, let's check out the CONTEXT of the drawing:

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

In John 6:44 the same "them" who is "drawn" is the same "them" who is "raised up at the last day". Those who were "drawn", "came" to Jesus, and were "raised up". Why? Because drawing is ALWAYS efficacious.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Seth, you claim you don't read my posts because you perceive "attitude" in them.
Well, if you don't like receiving "attitude", then maybe YOU shouldn't be throwing around "attitude" of your own.

I'm not "confused" about ANYTHING.
You are simply wrong.
And the issue is, that you have ZERO knowledge of the Greek, and I am fluent in it.
So if anyone is "confused", that would be YOU, not me.

If you want to share your "opinion" on something (wrong as it is), then you should label it as such, "this is my opinion".



Yes, this is your usual errant retort.
But the issue is that the "drawing" is ALWAYS efficacious. Something drawn ALWAYS reaches it's "goal". Otherwise you can't accurately say it was "drawn".

I gave 25 examples of "drawing" in English, ALL coming to completion.
And I gave 21 examples of "drawing" in Greek, ALL coming to completion.

You have given ZERO examples of "drawing" where they did NOT reach the "goal".
So your self-serving redefinition is simply FALSE.

Further, let's check out the CONTEXT of the drawing:

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

In John 6:44 the same "them" who is "drawn" is the same "them" who is "raised up at the last day". Those who were "drawn", "came" to Jesus, and were "raised up". Why? Because drawing is ALWAYS efficacious.
Quote the definition Greek, that states the verb is defined as reaching a goal.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Quote the definition Greek, that states the verb is defined as reaching a goal.

Quote the "definition Greek [sic]", that states the verb is defined as not necessarily reaching the goal.

We can see from USAGE that this is always true.

You are shifting the burden of proof. Why?
Because you can't prove your false claim.
 
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