God draws, chooses, appoints, elects, predestines, causes, wills, grants, puts, removes, makes alive, etc........

Sethproton

Well-known member
I have proven my point through USAGE.

You STILL haven't provided ANY definition, nor ANY example of usage that isn't 100% efficacious.

Nobody's going to fall for you fallaciously trying to shift the burden of proof.
Why is asking for the actual definition fallacious?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Why is asking for the actual definition fallacious?

Thanks for misrepresenting me.

I didn't say "asking for the actual definition" is "fallacious".
I said "shifting the burden of proof" is fallacious.
And it is.

You've claimed about a million times over the years that "draw" doesn't have to be efficacious.

Yet you have NEVER given a valid example of this.
Nor have you given an "actual definition" which states that it isn't fallacious.

Why would you expect any one to accept your bankrupt claims when YOU are unable to provide evidence for them?

I gave you about FIFTY examples where it is 100% efficacious.
You have given ZERO examples where it wasn't.

Is that supposed to just be coincidence?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Thanks for misrepresenting me.

I didn't say "asking for the actual definition" is "fallacious".
I said "shifting the burden of proof" is fallacious.
And it is.

You've claimed about a million times over the years that "draw" doesn't have to be efficacious.

Yet you have NEVER given a valid example of this.
Nor have you given an "actual definition" which states that it isn't fallacious.

Why would you expect any one to accept your bankrupt claims when YOU are unable to provide evidence for them?

I gave you about FIFTY examples where it is 100% efficacious.
You have given ZERO examples where it wasn't.

Is that supposed to just be coincidence?
So quote the definition.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You never define words when asked nor do you exegete a passage when asked . All you do is state your ideas period snd ask questions 24/7.
So you are justifying what one poster does by misrepresenting what I do.
This is your form of Christianity?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So quote the definition.

I can't.
I don't know your fake and imaginary "definition" that REDEFINES "draw", allowing it to not be efficacious.

I've given about FIFTY examples of usage, EVERY one of them being 100% efficacious.
You've given NO valid examples of usage NOT being efficacious.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I can't.
I don't know your fake and imaginary "definition" that REDEFINES "draw", allowing it to not be efficacious.

I've given about FIFTY examples of usage, EVERY one of them being 100% efficacious.
You've given NO valid examples of usage NOT being efficacious.
How would we know if your example are accurate, if you refuse to define the word?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
How would we know if your example are accurate, if you refuse to define the word?

They're self-explanatory.

Describe an example of a cowboy "drawing his gun", if it gets stuck in the holster.
Describe an example of a fencer "drawing his foil", if it gets stuck in the sheath.
Describe an example of a child "drawing the blinds", if they don't move.
Describe an example of a poker player "drawing a card", if no card leaves the deck.
Describe an example of a patient "drawing a breath", if no air moves into his body.

Repeat for ALL of the 50 examples I gave.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
They're self-explanatory.o

Describe an example of a cowboy "drawing his gun", if it gets stuck in the holster.
Describe an example of a fencer "drawing his foil", if it gets stuck in the sheath.
Describe an example of a child "drawing the blinds", if they don't move.
Describe an example of a poker player rlaiawing a card", if no card leaves the deck.
Describe an example of a patient "drawing a breath", if no air moves into his body.

Repeat for ALL of the 50 examples I gave.
fact remains. you refuse to give a definition of the Greek word because that does not support your position. So that others can keep up with this, you claim the word includes the idea of "reaching the destination" rather than just the act of "drawing/pulling"
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
fact remains. you refuse to give a definition of the Greek word because that does not support your position.

fact remains, YOU refuse to give a definition of the Greek word that shows it isn't efficacious, because that does not support YOUR position.

So that others can keep up with this, you claim the word includes the idea of "reaching the destination" rather than just the act of "drawing/pulling"

And you claim that it doesn't.
But you have provided ZERO evidence for your bankrupt claim.

While I have presented evidence in the USAGE (which YOU refuse to address, you keep RUNNING AWAY from them):

Describe an example of a cowboy "drawing his gun", if it gets stuck in the holster.
Describe an example of a fencer "drawing his foil", if it gets stuck in the sheath.
Describe an example of a child "drawing the blinds", if they don't move.
Describe an example of a poker player "drawing a card", if no card leaves the deck.
Describe an example of a patient "drawing a breath", if no air moves into his body.

Repeat for ALL of the 50 examples I gave.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
fact remains, YOU refuse to give a definition of the Greek word that shows it isn't efficacious, because that does not support YOUR position.



And you claim that it doesn't.
But you have provided ZERO evidence for your bankrupt claim.

While I have presented evidence in the USAGE (which YOU refuse to address, you keep RUNNING AWAY from them):

Describe an example of a cowboy "drawing his gun", if it gets stuck in the holster.
Describe an example of a fencer "drawing his foil", if it gets stuck in the sheath.
Describe an example of a child "drawing the blinds", if they don't move.
Describe an example of a poker player "drawing a card", if no card leaves the deck.
Describe an example of a patient "drawing a breath", if no air moves into his body.

Repeat for ALL of the 50 examples I gave.
Actually, I have posted the definitions many times from the Greek lexicons.That is why I know that your take on the word is wrong.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Actually, I have posted the definitions many times from the Greek lexicons.That is why I know that your take on the word is wrong.

That is an objectively false claim, and everyone reading this knows this.

If you disagree, then either (1) link to the post where you claimed to do this, or (2) repost your definition, and emphasize where the definition says, "and is not always efficacious".
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
That is an objectively false claim, and everyone reading this knows this.

If you disagree, then either (1) link to the post where you claimed to do this, or (2) repost your definition, and emphasize where the definition says, "and is not always efficacious".
That could have been settled long ago. Just post the definition of the Greek word to show that it means something is dragged all the way.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
That could have been settled long ago. Just post the definition of the Greek word to show that it means something is dragged all the way.

Lurkers: See how this poster FALSELY claims to have "quoted a definition" (which is a bogus claim), and then when challenged on it, he tries to shift the burden of proof?

Is that an admission that you have NEVER posted a definition that teaches "it is not always efficacious"?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Lurkers: See how this poster FALSELY claims to have "quoted a definition" (which is a bogus claim), and then when challenged on it, he tries to shift the burden of proof?

Is that an admission that you have NEVER posted a definition that teaches "it is not always efficacious"?
the word "efficacious" is not in the defintion
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
the word "efficacious" is not in the defintion

So by definition, you are ADMITTING that your previous claim was FALSE.
Thank you for the admission, Seth.

If it doesn't have "the word 'efficacious' " in the definition, then it CANNOT possibly have said it is "sometimes not efficacious", and therefore your claim is false.

EDITED--do not claim posters said something they did not
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Sethproton

Well-known member
So by definition, you are ADMITTING that your previous claim was FALSE.
Thank you for the admission, Seth.

If it doesn't have "the word 'efficacious' " in the definition, then it CANNOT possibly have said it is "sometimes not efficacious", and therefore your claim is false.

Thank you for admitting you were wrong.
Really? You think this is a real argument?
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
The entire salvation process is the Lords from start to finish !

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37,44-45
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

John 12:30-32
Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.

Helkuo is used in John 21:6 to refer to a heavy net full of fish being dragged to the shore. In John 18:10 we see Peter drawing his sword, and in Acts 16:19 helkuo is used to describe Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace before the rulers. Clearly, the net had no part in its being drawn to the shore, Peter’s sword had no part in being drawn, and Paul and Silas did not drag themselves to the marketplace. The same can be said of God’s drawing of some to salvation. Some come willingly, and some are dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come, although we have no part in the drawing. got questions

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Ezekiel 26:25-27
I will
sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you…27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you
a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 11:8
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 13:48 “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Colossians 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5
He saved us
, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

James 1:18
Of his own will
he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

There are many other scriptures to add to these but this should be enough to suffice that Salvation as the Bible declares in many places is of, by and through the Lord alone, not man. God is the One who is active causing all the things in the OP title.

hope this helps !!!
I will have to mull this over as I have always believed in synergism.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
The entire salvation process is the Lords from start to finish !

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37,44-45
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

John 12:30-32
Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.

Helkuo is used in John 21:6 to refer to a heavy net full of fish being dragged to the shore. In John 18:10 we see Peter drawing his sword, and in Acts 16:19 helkuo is used to describe Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace before the rulers. Clearly, the net had no part in its being drawn to the shore, Peter’s sword had no part in being drawn, and Paul and Silas did not drag themselves to the marketplace. The same can be said of God’s drawing of some to salvation. Some come willingly, and some are dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come, although we have no part in the drawing. got questions

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Ezekiel 26:25-27
I will
sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you…27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you
a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 11:8
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 13:48 “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Colossians 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5
He saved us
, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

James 1:18
Of his own will
he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

There are many other scriptures to add to these but this should be enough to suffice that Salvation as the Bible declares in many places is of, by and through the Lord alone, not man. God is the One who is active causing all the things in the OP title.

hope this helps !!!
But they have FREE WILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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