God draws, chooses, appoints, elects, predestines, causes, wills, grants, puts, removes, makes alive, etc........

Theo1689

Well-known member
God does choose us first.

He chooses the ELECT first.

Are you saying that God "chooses" EVERYONE?
(That's NOT "choosing".)

Or do you admit that there are some whom God does NOT choose for salvation?

He makes the first move, always. but as you know the Bible calls people to respond in faith

As usual, Seth makes a false assertion that is not Biblical, and that he knows is not Biblical, which is why he doesn't even attempt to give a Biblical citation.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
He chooses the ELECT first.

Are you saying that God "chooses" EVERYONE?
(That's NOT "choosing".)

Or do you admit that there are some whom God does NOT choose for salvation?



As usual, Seth makes a false assertion that is not Biblical, and that he knows is not Biblical, which is why he doesn't even attempt to give a Biblical citation.
When a poster denies that God has called us to believe, then not much of what they post can be trusted.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
,Wrong.
That's why you don't even TRY to support your false claim with SCRIPTURE.



Wrong.
That's why you don't even TRY to support your false claim with SCRIPTURE.
I have been over this with you many times.
You always start out like this, despite the fact I have shown you scripture
Then your next step, after being shown the scripture for the 10th time is to claim, that yes the verse speaks of free will, but it is not relevant to our chat
If anyone reading is curious where the NT speaks of free will, ask and i will show you. It is straight forward
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have been over this with you many times.
You always start out like this, despite the fact I have shown you scripture

Yes, we have been over this MANY times.
You always start out like this, falsely claiming that you have shown Scripture in the past, hand-waving to thin air, and at the end of the day we STILL never see any Scripture from you.

Then your next step, after being shown the scripture for the 10th time is to claim,

<Chuckle>
So you've "shown" us Scripture, not once, not twice, not three times, but "10" times?
If that's true (Spoiler alert: it's not), then it should be trivial for you to LINK to one of these "10" posts.

I won't hold my breath...

If anyone reading is curious where the NT speaks of free will, ask and i will show you. It is straight forward

If your theology had any Biblical basis, you would provide the Scriptures regardless of who was asking you.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
"God has called us to believe".

Who do you think the "us" is referring to?



So if anyone disagrees with your theology, then they can't be trusted?
Wow....
You love straw men. But why be one who continually pretends they do not know what a poster said.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Yes, we have been over this MANY times.
You always start out like this, falsely claiming that you have shown Scripture in the past, hand-waving to thin air, and at the end of the day we STILL never see any Scripture from you.



<Chuckle>
So you've "shown" us Scripture, not once, not twice, not three times, but "10" times?
If that's true (Spoiler alert: it's not), then it should be trivial for you to LINK to one of these "10" posts.

I won't hold my breath...



If your theology had any Biblical basis, you would provide the Scriptures regardless of who was asking you.
I agree, And I have shown the scripture to you many times. You are not interested. So I would prefer to show posters who are interested
 

civic

Well-known member
I agree, And I have shown the scripture to you many times. You are not interested. So I would prefer to show posters who are interested
Showing someone Scripture is not the same as knowing the truth contained in scripture. There is a world of difference between the two. The former(seths ideas) showing scripture with your ideas if far from the latter knowing the truth contained in those scriptures.

hope this helps !!!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Showing someone Scripture is not the same as knowing the truth contained in scripture. There is a world of difference between the two. The former(seths ideas) showing scripture with your ideas if far from the latter knowing the truth contained in those scriptures.

hope this helps !!!
I agree. Let us keep striving to understand the Bible and let iron sharpen iron
 

civic

Well-known member
I agree. Let us keep striving to understand the Bible and let iron sharpen iron
Thanks for admitting your methods are only your ideas which are the opposite of exegesis. Now we can begin to get somewhere in our discussions.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
The entire salvation process is the Lords from start to finish !

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37,44-45
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

John 12:30-32
Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.

Helkuo is used in John 21:6 to refer to a heavy net full of fish being dragged to the shore. In John 18:10 we see Peter drawing his sword, and in Acts 16:19 helkuo is used to describe Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace before the rulers. Clearly, the net had no part in its being drawn to the shore, Peter’s sword had no part in being drawn, and Paul and Silas did not drag themselves to the marketplace. The same can be said of God’s drawing of some to salvation. Some come willingly, and some are dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come, although we have no part in the drawing. got questions

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Ezekiel 26:25-27
I will
sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you…27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you
a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 11:8
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 13:48 “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Colossians 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5
He saved us
, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

James 1:18
Of his own will
he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

There are many other scriptures to add to these but this should be enough to suffice that Salvation as the Bible declares in many places is of, by and through the Lord alone, not man. God is the One who is active causing all the things in the OP title.

hope this helps !!!

Then why did He need you?

If God choose YOU, then that means that its not ALL about God.

Now, if God choose Himself. Which He did in Jesus Christ, then THAT proves Salvation is of the Lord more than your scenario ever will.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
And just for clarification, many non-Calvinists "redefine" the term, "draw" (Greek, "helkuo"), to try to force it to fit their unBiblical doctrines.

"Drawing" is completely efficacious, it does not fail. It is not a mere "wooing", or "coaxing", or something so impotent.

Here is how the term is used in English, and in Scripture:

Here is a list of expressions which use the term, "draw":

"draw a gun"
"with-drawl"
"draw a sword"
"draw blood"
"draw blinds"
"draw interest"
"draw curtains"
"draw a breath"
"draw a cheque"
"the honey drew flies";
“the light drew moths”;
"the enemy drew fire";
"horse-drawn carriage";
"draw the short straw"
"draw on a bank account";
"draw water from a well"
"amount of power drawn";
"draw a card from a deck”
"draw a bow" (archery);
"the college drew students";
"the performance drew cheers";
"draw-er" (you drag/pull it open);
"draw" (winning ticket) for a 50/50 draw;
"the prisoner was drawn and quartered";
“draw on a cigarette" ("take a draw");

I notice that none of these expressions make any sense if we replace the term, "draw" with "woo" or "coax". You don't "woo" a playing card out of a hand. You don't "coax" a sword out of its sheath.



I took it upon myself to study the usage of the Greek term, "ἑλκύω" (translated as "draw" in John 6:44), in the Greek New Testament and in the Septuagint ("LXX", the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament). This is what I found:

Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω>it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?

I've been arguing that Calvinism teaches that God "drags" them Himself for years. There is not one single reputation translation anywhere that uses the word "drag" like you're using it.

I don't believe anyone denies that "helkuo" implies force. However, for example. John 21:6 clearly states that the net could NOT be "drawn" into the boat.

Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

In other words, the weight of the fish resisted the "drawing" attempt. "helkuo" implies force but not to the degree you insist.

There is a old Greek word that does. It is only find twice in the NT and Greek OT. It is κατασύρω.

Your mistake.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I've been arguing that Calvinism teaches that God "drags" them Himself for years. There is not one single reputation translation anywhere that uses the word "drag" like you're using it.

I don't believe anyone denies that "helkuo" implies force. However, for example. John 21:6 clearly states that the net could NOT be "drawn" into the boat.

Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

In other words, the weight of the fish resisted the "drawing" attempt. "helkuo" implies force but not to the degree you insist.

There is a old Greek word that does. It is only find twice in the NT and Greek OT. It is κατασύρω.

Your mistake.
Interesting that the poster claims that the drawing is always efficaceous, yet the definition has nothing in it to suggest that. This drawing/dragging is simply an action. It is Calvinist doctrine that demands the word be redefined, The basic reason is that they do not like the idea that God can call a person and that person can resist
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I've been arguing that Calvinism teaches that God "drags" them Himself for years.

That's a nice straw-man argument.

There is not one single reputation translation anywhere that uses the word "drag" like you're using it.

That's a nice straw-man argument.

I don't believe anyone denies that "helkuo" implies force.

Really?
Who believes that "helkuo" implies force?
Citations, please?

Your mistake.

Nope.

YOUR "mistake" is in assuming that I have made a "mistake".
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
That's a nice straw-man argument.



That's a nice straw-man argument.



Really?
Who believes that "helkuo" implies force?
Citations, please?



Nope.

YOUR "mistake" is in assuming that I have made a "mistake".


Okay. Theo. I'm not going to answer you went you ignore half of what I wrote. What I said was accurate.

One of your mistakes is not knowing that κατασύρω represents irresistable force. Not ἑλκύω.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
The entire salvation process is the Lords from start to finish !

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37,44-45
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

John 12:30-32
Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.

Helkuo is used in John 21:6 to refer to a heavy net full of fish being dragged to the shore. In John 18:10 we see Peter drawing his sword, and in Acts 16:19 helkuo is used to describe Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace before the rulers. Clearly, the net had no part in its being drawn to the shore, Peter’s sword had no part in being drawn, and Paul and Silas did not drag themselves to the marketplace. The same can be said of God’s drawing of some to salvation. Some come willingly, and some are dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come, although we have no part in the drawing. got questions

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Ezekiel 26:25-27
I will
sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you…27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you
a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 11:8
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 13:48 “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Colossians 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5
He saved us
, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

James 1:18
Of his own will
he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

There are many other scriptures to add to these but this should be enough to suffice that Salvation as the Bible declares in many places is of, by and through the Lord alone, not man. God is the One who is active causing all the things in the OP title.

hope this helps !!!

Yup, "God draws, chooses, appoints, elects, predestines, causes, wills, grants, puts, removes, makes alive" in and with His belief. And outside or without Our belief none of these things can be known to exist or occur.
 
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