God is not disingenuous

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TomFL

Guest
The point has been made by myself and others, you just ignore it.
Without any scriptural backing

There are no verses which state God determines all of man's sin

so you extoll your theology at the bibles expense
 

armylngst

Well-known member
You understand nothing

You made several assumptions in your argument

1 eternal sonship Refers only to the incarnation

2 Because something was planned if could not have been planned based on foreknowledge
you have not proven your assumptions

so you have no argument
So prove your assumptions by explaining what the eternal sonship refers to, and if it was planned, then it wasn't based on foreknowledge, for the world had not even been created yet. You are claiming to have some mysterious, mystical knowledge about how God plans, which is not at all based on scripture.
 
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TomFL

Guest
So prove your assumptions by explaining what the eternal sonship refers to, and if it was planned, then it wasn't based on foreknowledge, for the world had not even been created yet. You are claiming to have some mysterious, mystical knowledge about how God plans, which is not at all based on scripture.
It is your task to prove eternal sonship proves what you claim

BTW your statement

if it was planned, then it wasn't based on foreknowledge,

is a total non sequitur
 

armylngst

Well-known member
It is your task to prove eternal sonship proves what you claim

BTW your statement

if it was planned, then it wasn't based on foreknowledge,

is a total non sequitur
IF it was planned, it was planned. Since nothing had happened yet, how can there be foreknowledge. The earth, at that time, did not even exist. Foreknowledge at that point would be determination.
 
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TomFL

Guest
IF it was planned, it was planned. Since nothing had happened yet, how can there be foreknowledge. The earth, at that time, did not even exist. Foreknowledge at that point would be determination.
Sorry you simply have no understanding of foreknowledge

and it appears you argue God cannot know what we experience as the future

That is a position which aligns itself with a belief in open theism
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
IF it was planned, it was planned. Since nothing had happened yet, how can there be foreknowledge. The earth, at that time, did not even exist. Foreknowledge at that point would be determination.
Exactly and well stated. It agrees with this notion of foreknowledge of God Acts 2 23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

And Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Even though the the prep pro is absent its no foul to say He forknew His works from the beginning of the world.

Gill writes:

Known unto God are all his works,.... These are the words of James, and not of Amos; all the things which God does in the church and in the world, they were all foreknown and predetermined by him: from the beginning of the world; or from eternity; even all his works of creation, providence and grace: the Alexandrian copy, and Beza's most ancient copy, and the Vulgate Latin version, read in the singular number, "his work"; the work of the conversion of the Gentiles; this was fixed and resolved on by God in eternity; he knew it would be, because he had determined it should be; and accordingly he foretold it, and spoke of it in various periods of time before it came to pass; and therefore it should not be looked upon as some new and strange thing, that was never known, spoken or heard of: and this holds true of every other work of God, and agrees with what the Jews sometimes say (z), that
"every work which is renewed in the world, the holy blessed God has commanded (or ordered) it from the day the world was created.''
 
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TomFL

Guest
Exactly and well stated. It agrees with this notion of foreknowledge of God Acts 2 23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

And Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Even though the the prep pro is absent its no foul to say He forknew His works from the beginning of the world.
Your own verse shows foreknowledge may be incorporated into a plan

3 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain


you are self refuted
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Your own verse shows foreknowledge may be incorporated into a plan

3 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain


you are self refuted
These things are obviously over your head to comprehend.
 
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TomFL

Guest
These things are obviously over your head to comprehend.
You remain self refuted

3 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

planning does not eliminate foreknowledge from being incorporated into a plan
 

Tercon

Well-known member
These things are obviously over your head to comprehend.
You remain self refuted

3 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

planning does not eliminate foreknowledge from being incorporated into a plan
You are both confused, as if time (past and future) doesn't apply to or exist in the reality of God, then God "foreknowledge" neither applies or exists in the reality of God. As if God is reality, then reality must exist in God's mind. And if reality exists in God's mind and God's consciousness like our own mind and consciousnesses is only known or experienced in the now, and only in the now and present tense, then God's mind like His reality only exists in a constant everlasting now and not in the illusion of the past and future.
 
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TomFL

Guest
You are both confused, as if time (past and future) doesn't apply to or exist in the reality of God, then God "foreknowledge" neither applies or exists in the reality of God. As if God is reality, then reality must exist in God's mind. And if reality exists in God's mind and God's consciousness like our own mind and consciousnesses is only known or experienced in the now, and only in the now and present tense, then God's mind like His reality only exists in a constant everlasting now and not in the illusion of the past and future.
Well you will just have to deal with the fact the bible speaks of it

so your philosophy means nothing at all
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Well you will just have to deal with the fact the bible speaks of it

so your philosophy means nothing at all
It also speaks of sin, but yet sin doesn't exist in God either.

So your conjuring and hate for belief amounts to you wallowing around in your unbelief again.
 
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TomFL

Guest
It also speaks of sin, but yet sin doesn't exist in God either.

So your conjuring and hate for belief amounts to you wallowing around in your unbelief again.
Sorry the bible speaks of sin also

It doesn't have to exist in God

it exists in man

Your philosophy seems somewhat pantheistic
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
1 eternal sonship Refers only to the incarnation


Sorry all you haver are assumptions
1- Can you show me where eternal sonship refers only to the Incarnation ?

2- Are you saying there was no Son prior to the Incarnation and that the Son is not Eternal ?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Sorry the bible speaks of sin also

It doesn't have to exist in God

it exists in man

Your philosophy seems somewhat pantheistic
That's right, the bible speaks of time also and it doesn't have to exist in God either in the same way and for the same reason.

And if you would just stop strawmanning you might learn something.
 
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TomFL

Guest
1- Can you show me where eternal sonship refers only to the Incarnation ?

2- Are you saying there was no Son prior to the Incarnation and that the Son is not Eternal ?
Those were a list of assumptions the poster I was replying to must make

not a claim for either
 
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TomFL

Guest
That's right, the bible speaks of time also and it doesn't have to exist in God either in the same way and for the same reason.

And if you would just stop strawmanning you might learn something.
So what we experience it. It is not non existent

Let me ask you a question

Is all outside of God non existent

or is all God
 

Tercon

Well-known member
So what we experience it. It is not non existent

We experience sin because we are sinners, so we experience sin and time in the same way and for the same reason, but we only experience both sin and time because we are sinners. However, when we take on our new bodies and we no longer experience sin or time, that's when, how and why we become a part of eternity, we have to first become eternal.
Let me ask you a question

Is all outside of God non existent

or is all God

Outside the reality of God aka His Kingdom there is nothing, void or the abyss aka HELL. And every time someone is lost that nothingness, void or the abyss aka HELL expands. But it is still just nothingness. I am thinking in that nothing isn't a good place for anyone. Imagine eternity in nothing but sin and time, that doesn't sound to good to me.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Is. 45:22 —ESV
“¶ “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”
take the water of life freely.”

Yet a theology says you cannot turn, cannot take of the water of life freely

God has determined from birth you would be unable to do any of those things

unless he first divinely enables you; actually supplying the water of life (salvation- regeneration ?)

to you himself rather than you taking it

You will find that, in Calvinism, God does tend to be very disingenuous.

No wonder, for their God is no more than a projection of themselves.
 
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TomFL

Guest
You will find that, in Calvinism, God does tend to be very disingenuous.

No wonder, for their God is no more than a projection of themselves.
No I believe many seriously believe what they say

People can disagree without a party being disengenuous
 
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