God is the first cause of everything with Salvation and Sovereign in the entire process

Tercon

Well-known member
That idea does not appear in the bible

This is a bible forum if you can't demonstrate it from the bible

you will find little agreement
Really???
So in Christ dying for us he didn't in reality believe for us as well?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
God gives ability's for faith and opportunity for faith and influence for faith he does not unilaterally irresistibly

determine faith however
False teaching. God gives Faith, gives believing Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
 
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TomFL

Guest
False teaching. God gives Faith, gives believing Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Nope he grants faith does not infuse it
 
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TomFL

Guest
That's not what I asked you, again, when Christ died for us, did he believe he was dying for us as well?

Actually what you stated was

So in Christ dying for us he didn't in reality believe for us as well?

However

Yes

John 6:51 —NIV11-GK
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.””
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Actually what you stated was

So in Christ dying for us he didn't in reality believe for us as well?

However

Yes

John 6:51 —NIV11-GK
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.””
Actually that's not true, as if Jesus died for us, then in reality he and we believe he has died for us as well.

Why can't you see that?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Actually that's not true, as if Jesus died for us, then in reality he and we believe he has died for us as well.

Why can't you see that?
Maybe because it does not make any sense

In any case Christ did die for use

John 6:51 —NIV11-GK
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.””
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Maybe because it does not make any sense

In any case Christ did die for use

John 6:51 —NIV11-GK
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.””
Or maybe “it does not make any sense” because you don't understand how the truth and logic work together to make the reality of God known to us.
If Jesus died for me and I am a believer, then in reality he and I both believe that he has died for me. So, in reality who believed first; Christ or me?
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
That's not what I asked you, again, when Christ died for us, did he believe he was dying for us as well?
strawman.........................

Does God believe ?

Does God have faith ?

Maybe its you who does not understand God and reality.......................
 

Tercon

Well-known member
strawman.........................

If Christ died for us, then he must have believed he was dying for us as well.
Does God believe ?

Yes, because a part of being made in His image is belief, as belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality of God known to us. And Christ relationship with the Father is a belief based relationship. And about the only thing God commends man for in the Bible is our belief in Him and His son Jesus Christ. Also, if you cannot know the truth and reality of God without a belief, then it is impossible for us to know the truth and reality about anything without a belief in reality. What do you have against belief?
Does God have faith ?
Faith is the truth we believe about the reality of God.

If Christ has faith in God, then God must be the epitome of faith.
Maybe its you who does not understand God and reality.......................

I understand how and why the truth and reality of God is known to us. Or in religious terms; 'I know how and why the truth and reality of God is revealed in us'. How about you?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Or maybe “it does not make any sense” because you don't understand how the truth and logic work together to make the reality of God known to us.
If Jesus died for me and I am a believer, then in reality he and I both believe that he has died for me. So, in reality who believed first; Christ or me?
To start with your statement itself

So in Christ dying for us he didn't in reality believe for us as well?

didn't make any sense

which you then changed to

That's not what I asked you, again, when Christ died for us, did he believe he was dying for us as well?

and I told you yes
 

Tercon

Well-known member
To start with your statement itself didn't make any sense

It didn't make any sense to you because you don't understand it and not because what I said isn't true.
which you then changed to

That's not what I asked you, again, when Christ died for us, did he believe he was dying for us as well?

I changed it to the above just because the prior statement you didn't understand it in that form. And some of the words have changed, but it still means the same thing in reality.

This is my original statement: 'Actually in reality Christ believed for everyone, that's how and why he and we know and experience the reality of God the Father as well.'
and I told you yes

If Christ is the truth incarnate, then Christ must be the truth itself.

And if the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known and known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then Christ's believing mind is where and how the truth and reality of God is first known to exist.

So, if Christ is truth itself and Christ's believing mind is where and how the truth and reality of God is first known to exist, then Christ not only dying and but also believing that he died for us is how the reality of God is known to us.

If in reality Jesus died for believers in Christ, then in reality he and we both believe that he has died for us. So, in reality who died and believed first; Christ or us? It was Christ.

And if Christ died for us but he didn't in reality believe he was dying for us as well? That doesn't make any sense.

'Actually in reality Christ believed for everyone, that's how and why he and we know and experience the reality of God the Father as well.'

Okay the above is my original statement and that statement means the same thing as the one below.

So, if Christ is the truth incarnate or the truth itself and Christ died and believed he was dying for us in reality, then in reality Christ not only died for us, but he also initially believed for us as well.

If Christ is truth itself and a believing mind is necessary in order to make known the truth and reality of God, then the truth is that Christ not only HAD to die for us to satisfy the requirement of the reality of God, but he HAD to also be the first that believed in the reality of God as well.
 
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TomFL

Guest
It didn't make any sense to you because you don't understand it and not because what I said isn't true.


I changed it to the above just because the prior statement you didn't understand it in that form. And some of the words have changed, but it still means the same thing in reality.

This is my original statement: 'Actually in reality Christ believed for everyone, that's how and why he and we know and experience the reality of God the Father as well.'


Sorry not only is that not the same statement but it is nonsense

Christ does not believe for anyone

and such a claim appears nowhere in scripture


save the philosphy and produce biblical evidence for your claims

if you want them to have any credibility
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Sorry not only is that not the same statement but it is nonsense
Why don't you deal with what's be said to you instead of evading it. As I have said something that is true. Now if you don't think it is true, then in order to show me that it isn't true, you have to say how and why it isn't true in reality. After all, if you think you know the reality of God is known to you, then show me.

Christ does not believe for anyone
If Christ is God and God didn't first believe for you and on your behalf, then the truth and reality of God couldn't be known to you.
If so, would seem that the truth and reality of God is not known to you yet. If you don't already know, then the truth and reality are the product of God's believing mind.
and such a claim appears nowhere in scripture
How did you know or could you know the reality of God before Christ believed in Him first? And if in reality Christ believed in Him first, then in reality Christ believed for us first as well. That's how we have our beginning in Christ and our finishing in the reality God.

Many indeed, therefore, other signs also did Jesus before his disciples, that are not written in this book; and these have been written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye may have life in his name.' (John 20:30-31)

`And in my beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit did fall upon them, even as also upon us in the beginning, and I remembered the saying of the Lord, how he said, John indeed did baptize with water, and ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit; if then the equal gift God did give to them as also to us, having believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ, I -- how was I able to withstand God?' (Acts 11;15-18)

and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them the Holy Spirit, even as also to us, and did put no difference also between us and them, by the faith having purified their hearts; now, therefore, why do ye tempt God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? but, through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, even as also they.' (Acts 15:8-12)

Both to Greeks and to foreigners, both to wise and to thoughtless, I am a debtor, so, as much as in me is, I am ready also to you who [are] in Rome to proclaim good news,for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek. For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live,' for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness. (Romans 1;14-18)

and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, (Romans 3:22)

And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,(Romans 6:8)

For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing, (Romans 10:4)

For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing, (Romans 10;4)

But what doth it say? `Nigh thee is the saying -- in thy mouth, and in thy heart:' that is, the saying of the faith, that we preach; that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved, for with the heart doth [one] believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation; for the Writing saith, `Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,'for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all [is] rich to all those calling upon Him, for every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.' How then shall they call upon [him] in whom they did not believe? and how shall they believe [on him] of whom they did not hear? and how shall they hear apart from one preaching? (Romans 10;8-14)

having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' (Galatians 2:16)

but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.(Galatians 3:22)

and not terrified in anything by those opposing, which to them indeed is a token of destruction, and to you of salvation, and that from God; because to you it was granted, on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also on behalf of him to suffer; the same conflict having, such as ye saw in me, and now hear of in me. (Philippians 1:28-30)

steadfast [is] the word, and of all acceptation worthy, that Christ Jesus came to the world to save sinners -- first of whom I am; but because of this I found kindness, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all long-suffering, for a pattern of those about to believe on him to life age-during: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, [is] honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen. (1 Timothy 1:15-17)

save the philosphy and produce biblical evidence for your claims

Obviously you don't know how the truth, logic and reality work together to make itself known to us. As the truth, logic and reality aren't just concepts, but the logos and exist in God's mind, and it is the truth in Christ that shows how God expresses Himself in and with reality, because everything that you can say about Christ and the Father can be also known and said about the logical truth and reality.

if you want them to have any credibility

Your opinion isn't what makes the truth and reality of God known to you. Rather it is your belief and your believing mind ONLY that makes the truth and reality of God known to you.

So again, if you see something that I have written here that you think is false, then you should be able at minimum to say how and why it is false in reality. If not, then you're evading.
 
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