God is the first cause of everything with Salvation and Sovereign in the entire process

TomFL

Well-known member
Why don't you deal with what's be said to you instead of evading it. As I have said something that is true. Now if you don't think it is true, then in order to show me that it isn't true, you have to say how and why it isn't true in reality. After all, if you think you know the reality of God is known to you, then show me.

For the first part what was stated was unintelligible
If Christ is God and God didn't first believe for you and on your behalf, then the truth and reality of God couldn't be known to you.
If so, would seem that the truth and reality of God is not known to you yet. If you don't already know, then the truth and reality are the product of God's believing mind.

Book, Chapter and verse

Do you have a reference

We have the light of creation

Rom. 1:18–21 —KJV
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

but what has that to with faith in Christ
 

Tercon

Well-known member
For the first part what was stated was unintelligible


Book, Chapter and verse

Do you have a reference

We have the light of creation

Rom. 1:18–21 —KJV
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

but what has that to with faith in Christ

You left out the best part, if you would have taken it back to the 16th verse you would have discovered why “the power of God to salvation” is known to us. Are you ashamed of your belief?
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Romans 1:15-17)

Because our faith has everything to do with Christ, as in him embodying the truth he was the first to believe in the reality of God and in him being the first to perform that belief for us as well 2000 years ago. Our beginning in the truth started with him believing and dying because of his belief.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You left out the best part, if you would have taken it back to the 16th verse you would have discovered why “the power of God to salvation” is known to us. Are you ashamed of your belief?
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Romans 1:15-17)

Because our faith has everything to do with Christ, as in him embodying the truth he was the first to believe in the reality of God and in him being the first to perform that belief for us as well 2000 years ago. Our beginning in the truth started with him believing and dying because of his belief.
And what do you imagine that verse does to advance your view. Nothing is mentioned about Christ believing for us or God believing for us

There is not a single verse of scripture in all your philosophical speculations which actually support your claims
 

Tercon

Well-known member
And what do you imagine that verse does to advance your view. Nothing is mentioned about Christ believing for us or God believing for us

Did you know that logic can reveal truths in the Bible that reveal the reality of God?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Romans 1:15-17)

When it says “to every one that believeth”, this “every one” they are referring in this verse includes Jesus Christ as well you know. Jesus is the
first “Jew” and then “also to the Greek”.
There is not a single verse of scripture in all your philosophical speculations which actually support your claims

That's not true. Are you seriously suggesting that nowhere in Scripture does it say or suggest through implication (like above) that Jesus had faith and his faith contained what he believed in and about the reality of God?

The following link would suggest otherwise and is a link to Bible verses suggesting that our salvation and faith in Christ not only dependent on his death, but also on his faith and what he believed in and about the reality of God the Father.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Did you know that logic can reveal truths in the Bible that reveal the reality of God?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Romans 1:15-17)

When it says “to every one that believeth”, this “every one” they are referring in this verse includes Jesus Christ as well you know. Jesus is the
first “Jew” and then “also to the Greek”.


That's not true. Are you seriously suggesting that nowhere in Scripture does it say or suggest through implication (like above) that Jesus had faith and his faith contained what he believed in and about the reality of God?

The following link would suggest otherwise and is a link to Bible verses suggesting that our salvation and faith in Christ not only dependent on his death, but also on his faith and what he believed in and about the reality of God the Father.
No that he believes for us
 

Tercon

Well-known member
No no one can save themselves

Only the truth and reality of God can save us from ourselves and set us free.
If any one was able to save themselves Christ would have not needed to die
If there is ONLY one way to know and experience the truth and reality of God and that is with a belief and a believing mind, then Christ's believing saved us from ourselves, because we couldn't believe for ourselves. What is intersession if not believing for someone else and intervening on their behalf.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Only the truth and reality of God can save us from ourselves and set us free.

If there is ONLY one way to know and experience the truth and reality of God and that is with a belief and a believing mind, then Christ's believing saved us from ourselves, because we couldn't believe for ourselves. What is intersession if not believing for someone else and intervening on their behalf.
Again book chapter and verse

Where is it stated that even with God's grace we could not believe for ourself

and Christ needed to believe for us ?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Again book chapter and verse

The role of Christ in our relationship with the reality of God.
Where is it stated that even with God's grace we could not believe for ourself

Strawman, as I didn't say nor suggest in any way that we couldn't believe “even with God's grace”. But rather before or without God's grace we cannot believe in the reality of God. So, maybe you should look into what makes God's grace irresistible and what it entails.

Why did we need a mediator and intercessor in Christ if we could have believed for ourselves and connected directly with the reality of God? Obviously you are missing something in the role of Christ and our relationship to and with him, and Christ role and relationship to and with the reality of God.

My goodness, even the Lord's prayer implies that we don't have a free will of our own, but must instead rely on God's will.

Also, even after we have received “the comforter”, the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of truth in reality, are we still even then believing on our own, or are we being influenced in what we believe by the Holy Spirit?
and Christ needed to believe for us ?

Actually if Christ is truth itself and he believed he is the Messiah, then it wasn't just Christ's death that saved us from the wiles of Satan, but it was his belief and believing mind in doing so before we could ourselves do so. So, in reality wouldn't that be Christ believing for us and on our behalf even before we were born to do so on our own?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The role of Christ in our relationship with the reality of God.


Strawman, as I didn't say nor suggest in any way that we couldn't believe “even with God's grace”. But rather before or without God's grace we cannot believe in the reality of God. So, maybe you should look into what makes God's grace irresistible and what it entails.

Except it is not irresistible

God's grace is resisted,

2Cor. 6:1 ¶ We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
Gal. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Heb. 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb. 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
enlarged. 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Except it is not irresistible

God's grace is resisted,

2Cor. 6:1 ¶ We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
Gal. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Heb. 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb. 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
enlarged. 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Again, why won't you answer the question: Could YOU resist God's draw to salvation when YOU first believed?

Also, if belief in the truth and reality is involuntary, then how can we to resist the truth and reality of God if all belief is involuntary? He either forces us to believe or he initially believed for us, pick one. I believe that Christ not only died for us at the cross, but he believed for us as well. That's why the burden is so big, believing for billions of people is a big task.

Don't know about you, but my conversion experience was brutal, I thought I was dying inside. But all that was occurring was that I was resisting His truth and reality and that resistance to the truth and reality of God was what was causing me all the anguish. The only thing I knew was that the truth and reality existed, little did I know at the time that the truth and reality is God.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
No

He believed himself sinless

John 8:46 —NASB
““Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?”
If God is the truth and reality and from our trust and belief in this truth and reality of God we have been reborn or born again from above and now are children of God. And no sin exists in the truth we found in Christ, nor in the reality of God, then why do YOU still believe that sin exists in YOU?

for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin; for that which I work, I do not acknowledge; for not what I will, this I practice, but what I hate, this I do.
And if what I do not will, this I do, I consent to the law that [it is] good, and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me, for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find, for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise.
And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me.
I find, then, the law, that when I desire to do what is right, with me the evil is present, for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man, and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that [is] in my members. A wretched man I [am]! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin. (Romans 7:14-27)
 

civic

Well-known member
And what do you imagine that verse does to advance your view. Nothing is mentioned about Christ believing for us or God believing for us

There is not a single verse of scripture in all your philosophical speculations which actually support your claims
Ditto
 

Tercon

Well-known member

TomFL said:
And what do you imagine that verse does to advance your view. Nothing is mentioned about Christ believing for us or God believing for us. There is not a single verse of scripture in all your philosophical speculations which actually support your claims

through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind believe and do serve the law of God, because with the flesh, the law of sin is served.

And just what verse “do you imagine that” mentions that YOU can believe and thus find in the truth and reality of God on YOUR own?

And to suggest that when Christ died for us he didn't also believe he was dying for us in reality at the same time is a lie.

through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin. (Romans 7:14-27)
 
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