God is the first cause of everything with Salvation and Sovereign in the entire process

TomFL

Well-known member
through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind believe and do serve the law of God, because with the flesh, the law of sin is served.

And just what verse “do you imagine that” mentions that YOU can believe and thus find in the truth and reality of God on YOUR own?

And to suggest that when Christ died for us he didn't also believe he was dying for us in reality at the same time is a lie.

through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin. (Romans 7:14-27)
On my own no

But with God's grace

John 20:31 —NASB
“but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV
“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Eph. 3:4 —ESV
“When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,”

John 4:39–42 —NASB
“¶ And from that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.”
So when the Samaritans came to Him, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days.
And many more believed because of His word;
and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.””
 

Tercon

Well-known member
On my own no

But with God's grace

John 20:31 —NASB
“but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV
“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Eph. 3:4 —ESV
“When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,”

John 4:39–42 —NASB
“¶ And from that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.”
So when the Samaritans came to Him, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days.
And many more believed because of His word;
and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.””
If you cannot believe on your own, then what drew you and made you believe then?

And every verse you quoted supports my position.

John 20:31 —NASB “but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV “and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.” You mean the “the sacred writings” that you believed “from childhood”?

Eph. 3:4 —ESV
“When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,” You mean the things we believe about Christ?

"And from that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.”

So when the Samaritans came to Him, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. And many more believed because of His word; and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”” They believed “this One” and knew “that this One is indeed the Savior of the world”.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Only the truth and reality of God can save us from ourselves and set us free.

If there is ONLY one way to know and experience the truth and reality of God and that is with a belief and a believing mind, then Christ's believing saved us from ourselves, because we couldn't believe for ourselves. What is intersession if not believing for someone else and intervening on their behalf.
I will say this, Christ obedience to the law and just of God saved His people. He obeyed God's Law for His people which of course did entail believing God. It's no way Christ obeyed the law of God without faith in God. In that regard He believed God for His People in so much He kept the law of God for them.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If you cannot believe on your own, then what drew you and made you believe then?
God's grace , the gospel


And every verse you quoted supports my position.'''''
No it does not


John 20:31 —NASB “but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV “and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.” You mean the “the sacred writings” that you believed “from childhood”?

Eph. 3:4 —ESV
“When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,” You mean the things we believe about Christ?

"And from that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.”

So when the Samaritans came to Him, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. And many more believed because of His word; and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”” They believed “this One” and knew “that this One is indeed the Savior of the world”.

As was noted

. Nothing is mentioned about Christ believing for us or God believing for us

There is not a single verse of scripture in all your philosophical speculations which actually support your claims
 

civic

Well-known member
God's grace , the gospel



No it does not




As was noted

. Nothing is mentioned about Christ believing for us or God believing for us

There is not a single verse of scripture in all your philosophical speculations which actually support your claims
Agreed !
 

Tercon

Well-known member
God's grace , the gospel

God's grace is irresistible and believers aren't able to resist God's grace because belief in the reality of God is involuntary and Christ was first to believe in the reality of God.

In the Bible what does God command us to do more of; die or believe? Die to sin and believe in His reality aka His Kingdom.

God believed everything into existence, including us. So wouldn't that be Christ and God believing for us?
Nothing is mentioned about Christ believing for us or God believing for us

I guess none of the writers of the Bible thought they would have to remind “believers” that Christ and God believed in and for us. And to suggest otherwise indicates that you do not know or understand how and why the truth and reality of God works. And if you do not, then stop pretending you do.

Actually in reality every verse of the Bible suggests that Christ and God believed in and for believers, how do think that Christ saved us from ourselves and God created everything, He believed it into existence. And His knowledge is found in and with the logical truth in His reality.

All of the below are logical truths that represent and make the reality of God known.

If the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known and experienced is in and by a believing mind, then the truth and reality must be the product of God's believing mind.

And if the truth and reality is the product of God's believing mind, then God must create everything that is knowable in and with His believing mind.

And if God creates everything that is knowable in and with His believing mind and God created and knows us, then God must have created us by believing us into existence in and with His believing mind.

And if God is reality and God created us by believing us into existence in and with His believing mind, then in reality God believed for us as well.

There is not a single verse of scripture in all your philosophical speculations which actually support your claims

Actually every single verse of scripture supports Christ was the first to believe and die for the reality of God and we as followers of Christ were to to do the same, believe and sacrifice our lives for the reality of God, AKA His Kingdom.

Firstly, if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known and experienced is in and by a believing mind, then God must have a believing mind.

And if the ONLY way and place the truth, logic, consciousness, existence, morality, belief and reality itself can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then the truth, logic, consciousness, existence, morality, belief and reality itself must be the product of God's believing mind.

And if in reality Christ was the first to believe he was dying for the salvation of believers, then in reality Christ was in first to believe and die for the salvation of believers as well. And to suggest otherwise is to diminish the role of Christ and his faith which is made up of his belief in creation.

Also, God only commends, rewards and attributes righteousness to humanity for one thing and way and one thing only, and that's for belief in His truth and reality.

Where do you “believe” belief came from? It all started in and with God friend.

Did you know that the truth, logic, consciousness, existence, morality and reality itself are all belief based and can only be experienced in and by a believing mind?
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
God's grace is irresistible and believers aren't able to resist God's grace because belief in the reality of God is involuntary and Christ was first to believe in the reality of God.


You forgot everyone does not believe so God's grace is not irresistible
 

Tercon

Well-known member
You forgot everyone does not believe so God's grace is not irresistible
Strawman, I didn't forget that there are people like you that disbelieve in the reality of God. I just don't disbelieve in the truth and reality of God. And if you don't know how and why the truth and reality of God is known to you, then stop pretending you do.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Strawman, I didn't forget that there are people like you that disbelieve in the reality of God. I just don't disbelieve in the truth and reality of God.
You must have as clearly everyone does not believe even when they are shown the truth

Rom. 1:18–21 —KJV
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”
 

Tercon

Well-known member
You must have as clearly everyone does not believe even when they are shown the truth

Rom. 1:18–21 —KJV
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”
Why are you reasoning from the unbelievers POV?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I will say this, Christ obedience to the law and just of God saved His people. He obeyed God's Law for His people which of course did entail believing God. It's no way Christ obeyed the law of God without faith in God. In that regard He believed God for His People in so much He kept the law of God for them.
And in other words Christ was the first to believe for us in the reality of God. There is nothing wrong with knowing how the truth and reality of God works, because how can we not know this if the Spirit of truth in us? Does the Spirit of truth know how the reality of God works? Of course He does. But if there are those who don't know how the truth and reality of God is known to them, then they don't know because of their unbelief as well.

There are two kinds of unbelievers. There is the atheist (with the mark on there forehead kind) who disbelieves in the capacity of belief to make the truth and reality known to them, when the truth and reality requires and demands that belief occur before the truth and reality is known. Then there is the second kind of unbeliever, the unbeliever with the mark on their right hand, because the right hand symbolizes your authority or who you have given your authority to, these are unbelievers who are deceived enough to think they can side with the first group of unbelievers (atheists) and think it is proper for them to reason for or from the POV of atheists. This second group of unbelievers are rampant amongst believers.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Why are you ignoring the fact God's grace has been resisted

I am not ignoring "God's grace" at all, because I am a believer that Christ supplied all at my salvation, including my belief, because I couldn't.
So he believed for me and exposed me to the reality of God. You however disbelieve that Christ believed and died for you at the cross. So how can you be a believer in the truth that is found in Christ and in the reality of God, when you disbelieve that Christ believed he died for you too?

Also, if God is the truth and reality, then how could you know the truth and reality of God without believing He had to first believe in and for you in order for you to know the truth and reality of God to begin with Tom?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I am not ignoring "God's grace" at all, because I am a believer that Christ supplied all at my salvation, including my belief, because I couldn't.
So he believed for me and exposed me to the reality of God. You however disbelieve that Christ believed and died for you at the cross. So how can you be a believer in the truth that is found in Christ and in the reality of God, when you disbelieve that Christ believed he died for you too?

Also, if God is the truth and reality, then how could you know the truth and reality of God without believing He had to first believe in and for you in order for you to know the truth and reality of God to begin with Tom?
Sorry God did not believe for you

No such words exist in the bible

He may have convinced you but he did not believe for you
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Sorry God did not believe for you

No such words exist in the bible

He may have convinced you but he did not believe for you
If God is the truth and reality, then how can you know God without Him first believing in and for you?

And how did He convince YOU without YOU believing He convinced YOU by believing He believed in and for you or made you believe? Pick one.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If God is the truth and reality, then how can you know God without Him first believing in and for you?

And how did He convince YOU without YOU believing He convinced YOU by believing He believed in and for you or made you believe? Pick one.
Either you have a verse that supports your claim or you don't

Book, chapter, verse or you have nothing
 

civic

Well-known member
If God is the truth and reality, then how can you know God without Him first believing in and for you?

And how did He convince YOU without YOU believing He convinced YOU by believing He believed in and for you or made you believe? Pick one.
where does God believe for you ?

got scripture ?

pick one, any one and I will refute it.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Either you have a verse that supports your claim or you don't

Book, chapter, verse or you have nothing

Did you know that you can use the logical truth to reveal concealed truths in the Bible.

There are plenty of verses that support the truth and reality of God. So, rather than running away and evading what is being said to you deal with it.

What I am saying is true in and about the the truth and reality of God. If Christ is truth and the Spirit of truth is what leads us to all the truth, then all the truth must be the reality of God. And there are plenty of verses that support the truth and reality of God. And if you know God to be something else other than the truth and reality, then say what you think He is other than the truth and reality.

where does God believe for you ?

When Christ died for believers, in reality did he believe he was dying for the believer as well? Yes of course. So, in reality when Christ died for the believer, he was the first to believe he was dying for the believer. And if he was the first to believe he was dying for the believer, then he was the first to believe that he was dying for the believer as well. So, he not only died for us as believers, but in reality he also believed for us too.
got scripture ? pick one, any one and I will refute it.

Jesus equates Himself with “the truth” and since Christ is Lord over all (John 1:1), we understand that truth is fundamental to the divine nature.

Scripture repeatedly teaches the holiness of truth. This is done in a many ways. Satan is called a “liar” and the “father of lies” (John 8:44), showing us that the opposite of what is true is not holy. The psalms describes truth as the total of our Creator’s word (Psalms 119:160), he tells us how the Lord draws near only to those who call upon Him in truth. Jesus confirms the inviolability of lawful and factual oaths and vows by telling us it is better not to swear an oath at all if we have no intent to keep it (Matt. 5:33–37) (Num. 30:2; James 5:12). Even God made a vow to Abraham when He wanted to confirm the truthfulness of His promise (Heb. 6:13–18; Gen.15).

God’s swearing of an oath provides confirmation that truth is not only a proposal to be believed, but also an action to be performed. And if the truth is a proposition to be confirmed and an action to be performed and the only action that can confirm the truth is a belief. And if the only thing that can confirm and perform such an action is a believing mind, then the truth must have came from a all knowing believing mind.

To be sure, truth is propositional, and Scripture gives us many facts in statement form (2 Tim. 3:16–17). However, we falsely claim to know the truth if we do not live in and by its decree. Truth is something that we do (1 John 3:18), and we are not faithful to God if we are not concerned and walk in His way, His truth and our life as a believer. (Psalms. 86:11). This does not mean perfect obedience, but it does mean that we repent whenever we find ourselves living contrary to His standards (1 John 1:5–10).

And as Christians if we affirm the correspondence theory of truth. And truth is that which conforms to reality. And if Christ is truth and Christ as truth always conforms to reality, then God must be reality.

With the onslaught of postmodern relativism in the world today, believers must resist any suggestion that objective truth and reality does not exist. Though we may not always know or understand the ways of this world, we don't really need to, because we know who and what the truth and reality is in us as believers.

Therefore, we are as believers in Christ truth conforming us to the reality of God as conceived by Him. He as the truth and reality knows all things exhaustively, and so we can trust anything He reveals in Scripture. Truth is not defined by our own subjective standards; but it is determined by and in the existence of truth and reality Himself.
 
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