God is Unavoidably in the Mix

Carbon

Well-known member
And yet, God unconditionally elected in eternity past and these alone He saves.
So those God elected in eternity past, He finally forces them to believe.
According to your belief, man chooses salvation by his free will finally; so all along this road to recovery, man is unwilling, at enmity with God, but even so, without God changing the heart, God finally breaks down his will so he will choose.

That's an interesting concept. Since God is almighty and man is not, I wouldn't think God would have to spend years in some cases on man to get him to change. If it's God not violating man's free will, then God would never have started the process in the first place since He would start against man's will.

Maybe, I'm just not reading you correctly because a middle position makes absolutely no sense.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
That really doesn't make sense.
I think it does.

" Sending anyone to hell is going to violate their will, as they will not want to go there.
Well where else would they want to go but away from God? Do you think all the God hating sinners at judgement are just suddenly going to love God and want to go to heaven?

At judgement, the reprobate will still hate God as much as they always have, maybe even more.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I think it does.


Well where else would they want to go but away from God? Do you think all the God hating sinners at judgement are just suddenly going to love God and want to go to heaven?

At judgement, the reprobate will still hate God as much as they always have, maybe even more.
They have this idea that the wicked love God and want to stroll heaven with Him.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
And they will find all the videos they desire to watch, aren't there. They wouldn't be happy there.
It is remarkable that nominal christians decry the wicked being in hell as if they were good god loving people who wanted to go to heaven.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
It is remarkable that nominal christians decry the wicked being in hell as if they were good god loving people who wanted to go to heaven.
Yes, it's pretty sad. Emotional vomit.
When God gives them over to a reprobate mind, that's the point of no return; unless God intervened and pulled them back.
Romans 1. teaches they are getting what they truly desire.
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
So those God elected in eternity past, He finally forces them to believe.
According to your belief, man chooses salvation by his free will finally; so all along this road to recovery, man is unwilling, at enmity with God, but even so, without God changing the heart, God finally breaks down his will so he will choose.

That's an interesting concept. Since God is almighty and man is not, I wouldn't think God would have to spend years in some cases on man to get him to change. If it's God not violating man's free will, then God would never have started the process in the first place since He would start against man's will.

Maybe, I'm just not reading you correctly because a middle position makes absolutely no sense.
It's not violating man's free will to bring or permit influences to the man that God knows will sway him this way or that. Man is free to do as he pleases, but he does not control his inclinations or the influences that come his way. Only God controls that.
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
I like Fullerism. But if he's correct and Arminianism and Calvinism are both true; why is Calvinism repugnant?
When Calvinists take the truth that God unconditionally elects and meticulously carries out His plan, and turn that into necessity by which men really can do nothing other than sin, reject God and perish, they have taken it to a repugnant extreme. When Arminians take the truth that all men have a will that is free enough to reject or embrace Christ, and turn that into a demand that men choose their own destinies on an equal level with God, they have taken it to a repugnant extreme. Just 2 examples.
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
Hmm, I always thought Fuller was mainly against Hyper-Calvinism. Been a while since I have read up on him, I can't quite remember what I didn't care for about him or his teachings (there was something). If God allows the time and interest, I will look into it again.
Fuller was a standard Calvinist, seeking to defend against hypers and Arminians. But the astounding defense that he made against the hypers strikes just as hard against the standard Calvinists when it comes to necessity v. certainty.
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
My background in CMA as an elder back in the 80's and 90's. I still love Tozer. The pursuit of God and the knowledge of the Holy still make my top 10 list of must have books. They greatly impacted my life in a personal way of pursuing God on a daily basis and to know Him - His Attributes as our Triune God. I have given both of those books to everyone I have discipled over the years including my 4 children.
Every Christian ought to read Tozer.
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
I never said that, is that the way you took it?
Men are born into sin and by nature they are spiritually dead. And Jesus taught that man must be born anew if they are to enter God's kingdom.
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John3.
Do you believe you can work with someone and persuade them to the point they can see the kingdom and make a decision for Christ by their own free will?

In which way God works in the life of His elect is in divine Providence, He has it under control and knows what He is doing. Our part is presenting the gospel.
I haven't learned how this new software works, as far as breaking up quotes. Anyway...

We will need to unpack the meaning of spiritually dead. Is that more than being spiritually disunited from God?
So then, do you take John 3:3 to mean that the man must see the kingdom first before he can be converted? I think that is an assumption. Go back to John 1. "As many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become the sons of God..."

Do I believe that I can work with someone and persuade them? No, God must persuade them. But that's my point: God can indeed persuade anyone to believe. You said, "...God works in the life of His elect [...] in divine Providence, He has it under control and knows what He is doing. Our part is presenting the gospel." I agree.
 
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