A few days ago. Thanks.
How do you know those who wrote article 9 believe in God?
A few days ago. Thanks.
Your logic is not sound...Humans were dying before the law. The Law only identifies what people do wrong and the penaltiesSo no humans at all are upstanding and upright according to the law because all humans die.
No Jesus died because he was killed. Crucifixion does not treat the upstanding and upright differently from those guilty of crimes.Jesus died on the cross; does that mean that He was not upstanding and upright according to the law?
Your logic does not show a tangle.You seem to be getting your theology in a tangle here.
How is that relevant to the topic?most people do not know what freedom is.
The fact that every society every has devised laws for its people indicates otherwise.If freedom is a human notion then humans would be free to do whatever they please.
I see that a lot. Christians often take the view that just because humans consider killing and torture wrong, that consideration does not extend to God.I don't see how what most people consider has to do with what God does.
........... a god who indulges in wholesale killing and torture ........
You are absolutely controlled by your emotions.How is that relevant to the topic?
Do you think people who not not properly understand freedom should not be given it?!?
The fact that every society every has devised laws for its people indicates otherwise.
But this is specifically about freedom of religion, so in that regard, what you say is true. Humans invented the notion of freedom of religion, and then - hopefully - allow humans to worship whoever they please.
I see that a lot. Christians often take the view that just because humans consider killing and torture wrong, that consideration does not extend to God.
i can kind of see it, but I think it misses the point here that a god who indulges in wholesale killing and torture is not a god of love, even if we suppose killing and torture are perfectly moral for that god.
Then death is not caused by sin if someone without sin can die, is it. There must be some other cause that applies to Jesus a well as to all other humans. I pick birth as the cause of death. Jesus was born, as all other humans are born.Scripture says He is without sin. (Heb 4:15)
Everybody likes to flatter themselves, not only that their own motives are good, but that they have a particular insight into the truth of things.I'm glad you put some effort into morality. I'm not trying to knock that.
But there is a veil of deception over our own motivations. We are not pure, but we really love to think we are.
When you value something besides the infinite source of value, somewhere you have to decide what value you make primary, what you put first, and these are all in relation to what things make you feel about yourself.
Nietzche once pointed out that the decision to measure an action by its motives was mere prejudice: why ISN'T outcome a better way? In societies that emphasize fairness, motive is important, because we ask ""Could anyone have made a better decision themselves"?. In societies that emphasize honor and authority, outcome is more important, because they ask "Did you injure or help those to whom you owe deference?"For example, suppose you decide you want to give up your own organs/blood for someone else who is going to die, and you are the only compatible match in the world. Here you are being noble and selfless, giving up your life for another person. Most people wouldn't even do that much. But even when you do, how do I know why you are doing? Maybe you are doing it because you just hate life and want to die, maybe you are doing it because you think you are noble and virtuous and in the end are just glorifying yourself, maybe you feel guilty about something you did and hope this noble act will somehow make it up.
Most people think shallow, and most people measure an act only by its result, not by its motivations.
I think that the thing that created the ability to value is probably the universe. Seems difficult to employ as a measure to distinguish valuations.And the one most devalued thing in the whole world is in fact, the single most valuable thing, the thing that created the ability to value itself, and what is good and right for something that thinks the most precious thing is worthless?
I read the OP...it didn't explain how you arrived at anything. You put article 9 vs Ex20:3-4 as a background to say...anyone exercising their basic human right to freedom to religion will get tortured by God for doing so.I wrote quite a length post at the start of the thread explaining how I arrived at it. Which bit do you not understand?
You are picking and choosing to use the scriptures you believe support your position. I have cited scripture that asserts death is the consequence of sin, and that Jesus is without. I am consistent. You are not.Then death is not caused by sin
You pick why things are. I learn why things are by revelation from God through the writers of scripture.if someone without sin can die, is it. There must be some other cause that applies to Jesus a well as to all other humans. I pick birth as the cause of death. Jesus was born, as all other humans are born.
According to your fraudulent use of the idea, sure, why not.So you are saying you have the freedom to worship who you like, but if you choose not to worship God, you get punished.
Then I'd say you should stop using it.Using that doublethink, the Soviets allowed freedom of religion. You could certainly worship whoever you like. If they found out, you would be arrested and thrown in a gulag, but you certainly had the right to worship.
The gospel of Jesus IS the warning.I have yet to have such a warning from God, so I must be fine.
The bible. It's all contained in the bible.And obviously you cannot reveal where you get it from unless someone asks you directly because....
I see you still don't bother asking.Er, because, er.... reasons.
You can indeed claim that. You'd be erroneously in serious wrong.No, you really don't, Steve.
Oh, it's related. You have however just demonstrated that you have no interest whatsoever in actually learning to understand.That is a wonderful straw man Steve. Utterly unrelated to anything I said, but why let that stop you when you are in mid-rant.
Neither did mine.Just to be clear, my parents never threatened to torture me if I failed to love them.
See above.I take it yours did?
you based your findings on what people assume freedom to be..How is that relevant to the topic?
Who took it from them? Your statement shows that you believe people who do not properly understand freedom are not free and someone should give them freedom.Do you think people who not not properly understand freedom should not be given it?!?
Laws are designed to restrict freedom. You are not making any sense.The fact that every society every has devised laws for its people indicates otherwise.
So we are on topic, good.But this is specifically about freedom of religion, so in that regard, what you say is true.
Yes in your article 9, but you assumed it was a religious construct.Humans invented the notion of freedom of religion,
That would be in your article 9and then - hopefully - allow humans to worship whoever they please.
Then you would be doing the same(taking a view)...because if you consider killing and torture not wrong, that consideration may not extend to God.I see that a lot. Christians often take the view that just because humans consider killing and torture wrong, that consideration does not extend to God.
Have you considered what you call love may not be what God calls love?i can kind of see it, but I think it misses the point here that a god who indulges in wholesale killing and torture is not a god of love, even if we suppose killing and torture are perfectly moral for that god.
Well, sure, but anyone can do that.Have you considered what you call love may not be what God calls love?
then you agree with my positionWell, sure, but anyone can do that.
There is a clear definition of lying."President Biden is always truthful. He even says so!"
What? He lied when he said X!
"Well, what YOU call truthful and what HE calls truthful are different."
Not so clear with love and loving.I love you and care about you, and I always have.
How can you say that? You took all my money and walked out on me!
So we disagree on what loving and caring means. Let's not let that get between us!
For those who are stretching.....In Greek, there are different words for love. Translators used one word for all.and so forth. The point simply being that definitions can only be stretched so far.
So it's my friend that will torture me forever because I don't believe in him. That's comforting. It's also stretching the definition of 'friend' rather ridiculously.I agree God can be dangerous, but you are missing out if you think he's not anyone's friend.
Abraham was a friend of God. Jesus said, "I no longer call you servants, I call you friends."
I agree not so clear with love and loving. But occasionally one sees things that are pretty much the opposite of loving: horrible suffering, despair, unending pain, mental illness....It's pretty hard to watch an obsessive compulsive pick gaping bloody holes in their own face with their fingernails and say "Hey, God loves this woman". I'm not seeing it. None of those 7 definitons fit "Sustain an existence in which people's delusions and compulsions drive them into misery and pain".then you agree with my position
There is a clear definition of lying.
Not so clear with love and loving.
For those who are stretching.....In Greek, there are different words for love. Translators used one word for all.
- Eros: romantic, passionate love. ...
- Philia: intimate, authentic friendship. ...
- Ludus: playful, flirtatious love. ...
- Storge: unconditional, familial love. ...
- Philautia: self-love. ...
- Pragma: committed, companionate love. ...
- Agápe: empathetic, universal love.