God vs Human Rights

Algor

Well-known member
Certainly this goes both ways.

Who gets to decide who is doing the "stretching."

I think the atheist is the one "stretching" love to mean "make everyone happy."
Do you mean me, or some other atheist? Because I don't think that. I think love is a human emotion, and it is difficult to figure out how any attribute of an infinite eternal, transcendant intelligence could have any correspondence to anything in the human limbic system. I think the whole issue of such a being having emotions makes no sense at all, and I regard the whole question of what a loving God would do as completely undecideable. However, I do think that some of the things that happen to people look like the exact opposite of anyone being shown love, and look more like persecution than anything else.
Words are referents to ideas, and people have different ideas with the same word... no Christian claims God "loves" like the world defines love.
If you have a hypothetical entity defined as having property X, but it is obvious on inspection that one must change the definition of X in order to defend the existence of that entity, then it is reasonable to suggest that perhaps the problem is not the definition of X, but the existence of the hypothetical entity as characterized.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
I agree not so clear with love and loving.
Ok you admit it is not so clear to you
But occasionally one sees things that are pretty much the opposite of loving: horrible suffering, despair, unending pain, mental illness....
But you are not clear as to what is love or loving.
It's pretty hard to watch an obsessive compulsive pick gaping bloody holes in their own face with their fingernails and say "Hey, God loves this woman".
But you are not clear about what love is....
I'm not seeing it.
because you are not clear about what love is.
None of those 7 definitons fit "Sustain an existence in which people's delusions and compulsions drive them into misery and pain".
Who said they fit that? I simply posted 7 words in the Greek language the the translators translated as love...I never mentioned them fitting anything. You are making conclusions based on something that you admitted you are not clear about.
 

Algor

Well-known member
Ok you admit it is not so clear to you
I admit that there are shades and degrees and ambiguities associated with important ideas.
But you are not clear as to what is love or loving.
I admit that it is hard to find 100% agreement on every aspect of it. This does not imply that I think overt persecution could be loving.
But you are not clear about what love is....
I admit that it is hard to find 100% agreement on every aspect of it.This does not imply that I think overt cruelty could be loving.
because you are not clear about what love is.
I admit it is hard to find 100% agreement on every aspect of it. This does not imply that I think abandonment could be loving.
Who said they fit that? I simply posted 7 words in the Greek language the the translators translated as love...I never mentioned them fitting anything. You are making conclusions based on something that you admitted you are not clear about.
And I "simply made" an observation that none of those could concievablty apply to many of the things we see in the world. I make conclusions on what is in front of my face: there is all KINDS of room for nuance and doubt...sometimes. Sometimes not.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
I admit that there are shades and degrees and ambiguities associated with important ideas.
That does not change the fact that you are not clear about what love is.
I admit that it is hard to find 100% agreement on every aspect of it. This does not imply that I think overt persecution could be loving.
Your admission to not being clear about love, is an indication that what you think on the matter is based on your not understanding what love is.
I admit that it is hard to find 100% agreement on every aspect of it.This does not imply that I think overt cruelty could be loving.
It would be obvious that if you are not clear about it then it is expected you not be 100% in agreement. And since you are not clear on the issue it is of no consequence what you think.
I admit it is hard to find 100% agreement on every aspect of it. This does not imply that I think abandonment could be loving.
What you think on the matter is of no importance since you already admitted you are not clear on the matter.
And I "simply made" an observation that none of those could concievablty apply to many of the things we see in the world.
That observation comes from someone who already admitted that they are not clear about the issue. That is tantamount to an observation from ignorance.
I make conclusions on what is in front of my face: there is all KINDS of room for nuance and doubt...sometimes. Sometimes not.
That would be making conclusions about something you admitted you are not clear about.
 

Algor

Well-known member
That does not change the fact that you are not clear about what love is.
Not as clear as I am about lying, but clear enough to make basic decisions. The rest of your argument is fundamentally wrong headed: nobody needs total certainty to make reasonable decisions

Oh wait, you were the guy who said that statistical analysis and hypothesis testing using observational data was pseudoscience, weren't you? I didn't recognize the name. later!
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
I read the OP...it didn't explain how you arrived at anything. You put article 9 vs Ex20:3-4 as a background to say...anyone exercising their basic human right to freedom to religion will get tortured by God for doing so.
Specifically anyone choosing not to worship the Christian god, but yes. I am not sure if you disagree with that, or if you agree, but see no problem with it.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Still coming up empty-handed finding a Bible verse stating that God tortures? Oh, that' right, the Bible doesn't say it, "Christianity"does, so let me rephrase that: Still coming up empty-handed finding a single CARM Christian stating that God tortures?
You tell me stiggy. If I refuse to accpt Jesus, will God jusdge me, and in his wrath punish me by sending me to suffer in hell?

I would love for you to reassure me that that will not happen, but we both know you cannot do that,

Your complaint, then, is that I tell it like it is, without the sugar-coating Christians put on it.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Not as clear as I am about lying, but clear enough to make basic decisions.
Not as clear bit clear enough? Really? If it is not clear then it is not clear...Your doublespeak does not count.
The rest of your argument is fundamentally wrong headed: nobody needs total certainty to make reasonable decisions
All you need is uncertainty to make unreasonable decisions.
Oh wait, you were the guy who said that statistical analysis and hypothesis testing using observational data was pseudoscience, weren't you? I didn't recognize the name. later!
You just proved me correct. In natural science, the hypothesis is tested by experiment. Observation is not an experiment.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Specifically anyone choosing not to worship the Christian god, but yes.
Then you are conflating things. You have to show where the "Christian God" said it is a basic human right to religion and worship whichever "God" you choose.
Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
I am not sure if you disagree with that, or if you agree, but see no problem with it.
I disagree with the notion that God gave people the right to worship whomever they choose.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
You tell me stiggy. If I refuse to accpt Jesus, will God jusdge me, and in his wrath punish me by sending me to suffer in hell?
Everyone will be judged, God is not sending anyone to hell. Men are born heading to hell God provided a way for man to escape hell.
I would love for you to reassure me that that will not happen, but we both know you cannot do that,
I can reassure you that God is not sending anyone to hell, where you go is your choice. God provided a way of escape from going to hell.
Your complaint, then, is that I tell it like it is, without the sugar-coating Christians put on it.
You are telling it as you think it is.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Then you are conflating things. You have to show where the "Christian God" said it is a basic human right to religion and worship whichever "God" you choose.
I never said the Christian God said that. I said that was something that humans recognise as a basic human right. I was pointing out that God ignores that basic human right.

I disagree with the notion that God gave people the right to worship whomever they choose.
Me too.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Everyone will be judged, God is not sending anyone to hell. Men are born heading to hell God provided a way for man to escape hell.
God created the system. He chose to create a system where "Men are born heading to hell". You can say it was Adam's fault, but Adam did not understand right and wrong when he sinned and had no clue about the consequences. God did. God knew Adam would sin, God chose to engineer the Fall when he got angry with Adam.

What is his criterium for judging me? As far as I can tell it is whether or not I love him or not (or accept Jesus, which is essentially the same). Is that not a red flag?

What about God's wrath? Many Christians tell me I will suffer God's wrath. You seem to be saying he will just ignore me. Are you saying I will not feel God's wrath?

You are telling it as you think it is.
Well, obviously! Hopefully you can expand on how you think it is.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Everyone will be judged, God is not sending anyone to hell. Men are born heading to hell God provided a way for man to escape hell.
That the universe is set up so that If someone doesn't accept Jesus they will go to hell sounds insane. There are various justifiable reasons why someone might not accept Jesus, such as being born into the wrong religion, never hearing the revelation, honesly thinking it doesn't make sense, etc etc, only emphasise this worldview as bizzare, and unjust .
I can reassure you that God is not sending anyone to hell, where you go is your choice. God provided a way of escape from going to hell.
If you honestly don't think the Christian God exists then there is no choice.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
You tell me stiggy.

You want ME to tell YOU the answer to the questions I asked YOU? Sure:

Q: Still coming up empty-handed finding a Bible verse stating that God tortures?

A: Indeed you are.

Q: Still coming up empty-handed finding a single CARM Christian stating that God tortures?

A: Indeed you are.



If I refuse to accpt Jesus, will God jusdge me,

Is Metacrock taking dictation from you or are you just still flustered?

and in his wrath punish me by sending me to suffer in hell?

If you refuse to accept God's offer to rescue you from hell, you will send yourself to hell.

Your complaint, then, is that I tell it like it is, without the sugar-coating Christians put on it.

WRONG! I have no complaints.
 

Furion

Well-known member
You tell me stiggy. If I refuse to accpt Jesus, will God jusdge me, and in his wrath punish me by sending me to suffer in hell?

I would love for you to reassure me that that will not happen, but we both know you cannot do that,

Your complaint, then, is that I tell it like it is, without the sugar-coating Christians put on it.
Actually you are very much like my one friend who complains about another friend of mine.

Atheists act as if we can do something for you, we can't.

When we were in your situation we turned to Jesus, the only one who can mediate between God and other men. You say you can't talk to him, he has already talked to you.

I also tell it like it is, or tell it like I see it. Two different things.

God tells you like it really is, you tell me how you see it.

You have no complaints about God I've not entertained myself. When you read what Jesus says he is telling you like it really is, not how we wish it to be.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
You tell me stiggy. If I refuse to accpt Jesus, will God jusdge me, and in his wrath punish me by sending me to suffer in hell?
You want ME to tell YOU the answer to the questions I asked YOU?
I want you to answer the question that followed directly after that.

The one you snipped from my post when you replied. Here it is again. Can you answer it this time? Or should I expect more evasion?

If I refuse to accept Jesus, will God judge me, and in his wrath punish me by sending me to suffer in hell?
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Actually you are very much like my one friend who complains about another friend of mine.

Atheists act as if we can do something for you, we can't.
Right. we act like you can answer simple questions about your religion. You can't.

You have no complaints about God I've not entertained myself.
So it should be easy for you to answer simple questions about your religion. You can't.
 

Furion

Well-known member
Actually you are very much like my one friend who complains about another friend of mine.

Atheists act as if we can do something for you, we can't.

When we were in your situation we turned to Jesus, the only one who can mediate between God and other men. You say you can't talk to him, he has already talked to you.

I also tell it like it is, or tell it like I see it. Two different things.

God tells you like it really is, you tell me how you see it.

You have no complaints about God I've not entertained myself. When you read what Jesus says he is telling you like it really is, not how we wish it to be.
Continued...

He spoke of sin. He spoke of righteousness. He spoke of judgement.

He revealed what meekness is, what humbleness is, what forgiveness is, what repentance is.

He revealed what God expects of you, what you are to do, how you are to live.

He instructed us to have faith in him, to have faith in the way.

The way is love. It will not fail you in God's eyes. Though this world may hate you, God expects you to walk in love.

It is what Jesus demonstrated to us.

Though He commanded the wind and the wave, He joyfully laid down His life and did not command the atoms of their body to dissolve, nor tell the earth to open and swallow them.

He loved them into His own death.

So this is part of what I think, and I am mockingly told He had a bad weekend.

I can listen to a man in his struggle, but if you mock what Christ did for me, I might open the gates of hell for you myself, and invite you to walk in. Not that I could, I'm sure the Lord would persuade me otherwise.
 

Furion

Well-known member
Right. we act like you can answer simple questions about your religion. You can't.


So it should be easy for you to answer simple questions about your religion. You can't.
I am gentle with you, actually.

Will you be caste alive into the lake of fire while you flip God the bird?

Why would I ever think otherwise?
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
There are Christians who find the Biblical description of hell unpalatable and so try to create a doctrine of "annihilationism," that is, you just go poof when you die without Christ; it may be why he is reticent.

I think the Bible is quite clear you don't go "poof" and it's very important to let people know exactly what the Bible says about gnashing of teeth and a fire that never goes out and an eternal punishment.
Then there are those Christians who don't think hell exists.
 
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