God walks into His Temple.

Greetings again johnny guitar and shnarkle and Greetings Yahchristian,
The conception of The MAN Jesus was by The Holy Spirit, NOT The Father.
The conception of the man Jesus was by God the Father by means of his power, the Holy Spirit. He addresses the One God, Yahweh, God the Father as "O Father" in Matthew 11:25
The Son is begotten of The Father, NOT conceived by or born of The Father.
"Eternally begotten" are contradictory terms and this is invented by Trinitarians to explain the term "begotten" in John 1:14 and John 3:16.
Is the Holy Spirit the father of the MAN Jesus?
*Notice I used a lower case f in father.
Yes, johnny guitar believes that Jesus is the son of God the Holy Spirit and he reserves the term The Son of God for an equivalent of God the Son. He does not believe that the human Jesus is the Son of God, or the Son of God the Father.
This would be the case with the flesh. With the Spirit, God is the eternal father. God does not become a father in time.
Jesus was a complete person and his spirit was his breath and consciousness which do not transmit consciousness after death as man is mortal and returns to the dust. Jesus awoke from the sleep of death after three days when God raised him from the dead.
The process of begetting is eternal.
Is this saying that Jesus was not begotten as God the Son as one process back in eternity? But that the begetting is a continuous process where God the Father has not fully received the product of the begetting process? Either way it is a distortion of ideas.
While it may not be something that most readers might see, the father is impotent to do what only the son can accomplish. The father can only glorify the son while the son can only glorify the father. This son IS the glory of the father. Without the Son, the Father cannot be glorified.
Whatever this really means !!! How do you read and understand:
John 12:27-28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Conceived is used in reference to men; Begotten to God.
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg Gk: begotten) in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Greetings again johnny guitar and shnarkle and Greetings Yahchristian,

The conception of the man Jesus was by God the Father by means of his power, the Holy Spirit. He addresses the One God, Yahweh, God the Father as "O Father" in Matthew 11:25

"Eternally begotten" are contradictory terms and this is invented by Trinitarians to explain the term "begotten" in John 1:14 and John 3:16.
I'm not a Trinitarian, therefore I have no dog in that fight to begin with. Eternally begotten is not contradictory.
Jesus was a complete person and his spirit was his breath and consciousness which do not transmit consciousness after death as man is mortal and returns to the dust.
This is beside the point which you continue to ignore. Consciousness is not transmitted while one is alive either. One's consciousness is not transmitted. What is transmitted isn't consciousness.
Jesus awoke from the sleep of death after three days when God raised him from the dead.

The gospel narratives indicate that this probably isn't the case at all. it is more likely that what Christ transmitted to his disciples became manifest within them, i.e. the gospel message.
Is this saying that Jesus was not begotten as God the Son as one process back in eternity?
No.
But that the begetting is a continuous process
Yes.
where God the Father has not fully received the product of the begetting process?
Perhaps. The bible points out that there will come a point where God will be "all in all", but that this isn't the case yet.
Either way it is a distortion of ideas.
They are Paul's ideas.
Whatever this really means !!! How do you read and understand:
John 12:27-28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
John's gospel revolves around the glory evident through the crucifixion itself. it is through self sacrificial love that God is glorified and this can only be seen or manifest in, with, and through Christ according to the father's will by the power of his holy spirit.
Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again shnarkle,
Eternally begotten is not contradictory.
I have yet to hear a simple clear explanation of this phrase "eternally begotten". This possibly means something different to you by comparison to a Trinitarian.
This is beside the point which you continue to ignore. Consciousness is not transmitted while one is alive either. One's consciousness is not transmitted. What is transmitted isn't consciousness.
I believe that when man dies his thoughts cease and he returns to the dust Psalm 6:4-5, Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:2-3.
Perhaps. The bible points out that there will come a point where God will be "all in all", but that this isn't the case yet.
I understand that "all in all" is fulfilled at the end of the 1000 years. I consider the begetting process with Jesus started with conception and was complete after his birth.
John's gospel revolves around the glory evident through the crucifixion itself. it is through self sacrificial love that God is glorified and this can only be seen or manifest in, with, and through Christ according to the father's will by the power of his holy spirit.
I can agree with this in general except possibly the last part "by the power of the holy spirit", which I consider is one factor only. Jesus had his own mind that was developed from childhood, and he responded by loving submission to God the Father's education and guidance.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again shnarkle,

I have yet to hear a simple clear explanation of this phrase "eternally begotten". This possibly means something different to you by comparison to a Trinitarian.
God is unchanging, and therefore his role as Father is unchanging and eternal. God is the eternal Father. God did not become a father. Likewise, the Son proceeds from the Father eternally. Christ is the Father's eternal Son. He is the eternal Son.

These metaphors of "Son" and "Word" are synonymous. They both show that there is this eternal or continual process. Where I differ from Trinitarians is where Paul differs from Trinitarians, i.e. where he distinguishes God from Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6).

God is the origin of all that exists including existence. Therefore, existence is more accurately attributed to God as origin rather than who God is. Grammatically speaking, it is more accurate to see God's existence as the Genitive of Possession rather than the Verb to Be. Existence belongs to God rather than being who God is.

Existence is eternal. There can be no beginning or end to existence, and this is the immediate means of connecting to God. However, it cannot connect anyone to God if they have developed a separate sense of self identity. Hence the necessity of self-sacrifice or self denial. This is how the gospel begins.

Not to digress, but despite all protestations to the contrary, it isn't about denying the objective world, i.e. the objects which capture the lust of the flesh which would be an exercise in futility as they are endless.

The proof is simple. Any halfway decent textbook on early childhood development will point out that the identity which we all possess is fabricated from nothing. It's nothing more than an abstract construction of the mind that Adam associated with the dirt God formed from the earth. He does this in opposition to being the image of God. In other words, he swaps his ontological identity with an epistemological idea. Instead of an immediate connection with God, he chooses to filter reality through his own intellect. He introduces a superfluous mediator which necessarily must separate him from God.
I believe that when man dies his thoughts cease and he returns to the dust Psalm 6:4-5, Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:2-3.
Adam is not the dirt God formed from the ground. Adam is the combination of the breath of life God mixed with that dirt. When that breath of life returns to God who gave it, the dirt returns to the earth. Adam is not the dirt, nor are any of the thoughts Adam ever possessed. Like all fallen human beings, Adam identified with the body, and God humored the first recorded example of identity politics by pointing out that this identity can only lead to death due to the fact that the dirt was always dead, and destined to die. One's fabricated identity can only die with it.

The field of consciousness is much more comprehensive than that of intelligibility. Intelligence is nothing more than consciousness covered by the veil of ignorance, and pure consciousness can never be conscious of anything.

The object of consciousness necessarily requires a trinitarian reality which should never be confused or conflated with the doctrine of the Trinity.
I understand that "all in all" is fulfilled at the end of the 1000 years.
I suspect it is more accurately recognized and understood at the end of the 1000 years.
I consider the begetting process with Jesus started with conception and was complete after his birth.
Your considerations don't seem to take into account that the name given to a human being isn't who that human being identified with. He does not say, "I am Jesus", or 'I am this person named Jesus." Instead, he points out that he is "the way, the truth and the life." This can only be accomplished through self denial. This is the crux of God's salvation. This is what the Hebrew name Yashua literally means.

He repeatedly makes these statements pointing to who he is when he denies the persona that is objectively presented to the world. He necessarily follows his own advice. He is the prime example of what it truly means to manifest self-sacrificial love. He personifies God's will, but as anyone with a rudimentary understanding of grammar, or the laws of language will point out, God's will is not God. God's name is not God. The temple God dwells in is not God. The image of God is not God, but God's image. The image belongs to God who is the origin of his own image.

There can only be one persona. There can only be one mask presented to the world which when removed reveals God. This doesn't deny the existence of the mask, nor does it provide a valid means of basing the doctrine of the Trinity. However, it doesn't deny a quite self-evident trinitarian reality.
I can agree with this in general except possibly the last part "by the power of the holy spirit", which I consider is one factor only. Jesus had his own mind that was developed from childhood, and he responded by loving submission to God the Father's education and guidance.
More accurately, he became aware that all that exists necessarily belongs to God as the origin of all things. Jesus' mind did not develop apart from the guiding influence of God's spirit. To assume this is to deny the fact that God is spirit and spirit can only beget spirit.

Moreover, we must never forget that it is the word which became flesh that is the true subject, not the flesh that objectively exists in creation. The flesh objectively exists, but this is never who one is. The temple is never who one is, but is always and everywhere the dwelling place of the divine. The doctrine of the Trinity conflates the contents with the container. The trinitarian reality distinguishes between the two, yet spotlights that one cannot identify with the other. There is only one true identity in, with, and through Christ.

Christ is contingent between the Father as the origin of creation and objective creation. Christ is the mediator as well as the medium itself. He is the mediator, the copula connecting the subject with the object.

Once one enters into the Way, these separate identities cease to be of any use. Ultimately, there is only Christ, and the sooner one sees that as the only true identity, the sooner one is able to leave this world of the clocks and step into eternity.

The most insignificant glimpse is more than enough to stretch a week into a century. Those who gaze into the eyes of Christ transcend time and the oxymoron of a separate, fabricated, useless identity altogether.
Kind regards
Trevor
 
God is unchanging, and therefore his role as Father is unchanging and eternal. God is the eternal Father. God did not become a father. Likewise, the Son proceeds from the Father eternally. Christ is the Father's eternal Son. He is the eternal Son.

These metaphors of "Son" and "Word" are synonymous. They both show that there is this eternal or continual process. Where I differ from Trinitarians is where Paul differs from Trinitarians, i.e. where he distinguishes God from Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6).

(...)
So many words... and none Scripture? The reason why, is obviously that all of it is personal opinion, and nothing else. I started reading the post, and from the very beginning found a lot of inconsistencies, like "Word" and "Son" are synonymous, or an eternal son contemporary with his father ... all ridiculous things that no person with rational thinking would accept as truth. Obviously, I stopped reading all this nonsense before finishing ...
 
Greetings again johnny guitar and shnarkle and Greetings Yahchristian,

The conception of the man Jesus was by God the Father by means of his power, the Holy Spirit. He addresses the One God, Yahweh, God the Father as "O Father" in Matthew 11:25

"Eternally begotten" are contradictory terms and this is invented by Trinitarians to explain the term "begotten" in John 1:14 and John 3:16.

Yes, johnny guitar believes that Jesus is the son of God the Holy Spirit and he reserves the term The Son of God for an equivalent of God the Son. He does not believe that the human Jesus is the Son of God, or the Son of God the Father.

Jesus was a complete person and his spirit was his breath and consciousness which do not transmit consciousness after death as man is mortal and returns to the dust. Jesus awoke from the sleep of death after three days when God raised him from the dead.

Is this saying that Jesus was not begotten as God the Son as one process back in eternity? But that the begetting is a continuous process where God the Father has not fully received the product of the begetting process? Either way it is a distortion of ideas.

Whatever this really means !!! How do you read and understand:
John 12:27-28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.


Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg Gk: begotten) in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


Kind regards
Trevor
Yep, that which is CONCEIVED in her is of The Holy Spirit, NOT The Father.
Mary was found with a child of The Father???NOPE a child of The Holy Spirit.
Jesus is BOTH The Son of God AND a Man.
He who is begotten of God is eternal.
 
Greetings again shnarkle,
God is unchanging, and therefore his role as Father is unchanging and eternal. God is the eternal Father. God did not become a father. Likewise, the Son proceeds from the Father eternally. Christ is the Father's eternal Son. He is the eternal Son.
God may have had the title God the Father because all things have proceeded from God, but he specifically was the father of Jesus when he begat Jesus. We use the term "God the Father" mainly because of this ONE event, and then he becomes God our Father when we are adopted into the family of God through Jesus. Jesus did not exist before he was born and therefore he was not eternally begotten.
The field of consciousness is much more comprehensive than that of intelligibility. Intelligence is nothing more than consciousness covered by the veil of ignorance, and pure consciousness can never be conscious of anything.
Not sure what you are saying in this section, but I believe that our brain has a lot to do with consciousness and when our brain is damaged in a stroke or when our bodies die, then consciousness is lost. Remarkably God is able to raise the dead after four days with Lazarus, and many years with the faithful, and the individual will be the same as if he had been asleep. We buried my mother-in-law recently at age 100, having been a widow for 38 years, and she lies next to her husband and both have the inscription "In hope of the resurrection". They will wake up from their sleep together.
I suspect it is more accurately recognized and understood at the end of the 1000 years.
I consider the term "all in all" is specific to the fact that God's glory will fill the earth, and when death is abolished at the end of the 1000 years, when the reign of Christ over the mortal nations is completed, then all the immortalised believers from the first 6000 years and the 1000 years will be filled with the glory of God, and thus God's glory will encompass all of them and be in all of them, succinctly, "all in all", Yahweh "He who will be/become" will have become "all and in all".
To assume this is to deny the fact that God is spirit and spirit can only beget spirit.
God the Father is a Spirit Being but he begat Jesus through his power, the Holy Spirit and as such God was the father of Jesus, with Mary his mother. As such it was a creative process.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again johnny guitar,
Yep, that which is CONCEIVED in her is of The Holy Spirit, NOT The Father. Mary was found with a child of The Father???NOPE a child of The Holy Spirit.
I think your web is getting a bit tangled. When Jesus speaks to his father, is he addressing God the Father, or based on your view is he speaking to his father, God the Holy Spirit? Who is Jesus speaking to in the following references?:

Matthew 11:25 (KJV): At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

John 12:27–28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Mark 14:32–36 (KJV): 32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray. 33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; 34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. 35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.


Kind regards
Trevor
 
Jesus did not exist before he was born and therefore he was not eternally begotten.
I've never claimed Jesus was eternally begotten. I've always maintained that just as the invisible idea is manifest in the spoken word, so too the invisible Father is manifest through the living Word. The word is eternal, and even though the word became flesh, it doesn't then follow that the word dies. Only the flesh dies. There is no beginning or end to the word, and this is who Christ the Son always was, is, and will always be.
I consider the term "all in all" is specific to the fact that God's glory will fill the earth, and when death is abolished at the end of the 1000 years, when the reign of Christ over the mortal nations is completed, then all the immortalised believers from the first 6000 years and the 1000 years will be filled with the glory of God, and thus God's glory will encompass all of them and be in all of them, succinctly, "all in all", Yahweh "He who will be/become" will have become "all and in all".
A perfect example of the actual reality can be seen in Isaiah's account of Israel. He laments the corruption which he sees everywhere, and yet he is then presented with Seraphim who see nothing but the glory of God filling the whole of creation. There is no need to wait. It's just a matter of focus.
 
Greetings again shnarkle,

God may have had the title God the Father because all things have proceeded from God, but he specifically was the father of Jesus when he begat Jesus. We use the term "God the Father" mainly because of this ONE event, and then he becomes God our Father when we are adopted into the family of God through Jesus. Jesus did not exist before he was born and therefore he was not eternally begotten.

Not sure what you are saying in this section, but I believe that our brain has a lot to do with consciousness and when our brain is damaged in a stroke or when our bodies die, then consciousness is lost. Remarkably God is able to raise the dead after four days with Lazarus, and many years with the faithful, and the individual will be the same as if he had been asleep. We buried my mother-in-law recently at age 100, having been a widow for 38 years, and she lies next to her husband and both have the inscription "In hope of the resurrection". They will wake up from their sleep together.

I consider the term "all in all" is specific to the fact that God's glory will fill the earth, and when death is abolished at the end of the 1000 years, when the reign of Christ over the mortal nations is completed, then all the immortalised believers from the first 6000 years and the 1000 years will be filled with the glory of God, and thus God's glory will encompass all of them and be in all of them, succinctly, "all in all", Yahweh "He who will be/become" will have become "all and in all".

God the Father is a Spirit Being but he begat Jesus through his power, the Holy Spirit and as such God was the father of Jesus, with Mary his mother. As such it was a creative process.

Kind regards
Trevor
God The Father is ALWAYS used in contradistinction to His ONLY begotten Son.
Jesus The MAN did NOT exist before He was conceived by The Holy Spirit, NOT The Father.
 
I've never claimed Jesus was eternally begotten. I've always maintained that just as the invisible idea is manifest in the spoken word, so too the invisible Father is manifest through the living Word. The word is eternal, and even though the word became flesh, it doesn't then follow that the word dies. Only the flesh dies. There is no beginning or end to the word, and this is who Christ the Son always was, is, and will always be.

A perfect example of the actual reality can be seen in Isaiah's account of Israel. He laments the corruption which he sees everywhere, and yet he is then presented with Seraphim who see nothing but the glory of God filling the whole of creation. There is no need to wait. It's just a matter of focus.
The Son of God is ETERNAL.
 
Greetings again shnarkle,
There is no beginning or end to the word, and this is who Christ the Son always was, is, and will always be.
I do not agree with "always was" as I consider Jesus Christ the Son of God had a beginning, and that was when he was conceived and born.
A perfect example of the actual reality can be seen in Isaiah's account of Israel. He laments the corruption which he sees everywhere, and yet he is then presented with Seraphim who see nothing but the glory of God filling the whole of creation. There is no need to wait. It's just a matter of focus.
I consider that the prophecy of Isaiah 6 was a vision of future things, when Christ will be exalted to sit upon the Throne of David in the Temple at Jerusalem during the 1000 years. The Seraphim are symbolic creatures and the scene is set with the Temple and Mosaic details with Isaiah interacting with the vision as if the whole scenario was real. The whole earth will be filled with God's glory when the Kingdom is established.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again shnarkle,

I do not agree with "always was" as I consider Jesus Christ the Son of God had a beginning, and that was when he was conceived and born.

I consider that the prophecy of Isaiah 6 was a vision of future things, when Christ will be exalted to sit upon the Throne of David in the Temple at Jerusalem during the 1000 years. The Seraphim are symbolic creatures and the scene is set with the Temple and Mosaic details with Isaiah interacting with the vision as if the whole scenario was real. The whole earth will be filled with God's glory when the Kingdom is established.

Kind regards
Trevor
And Isaiah saw The glory of Jesus Christ(YHWH).
 
Greetings again shnarkle,

I do not agree with "always was" as I consider Jesus Christ the Son of God had a beginning, and that was when he was conceived and born.

I consider that the prophecy of Isaiah 6 was a vision of future things, when Christ will be exalted to sit upon the Throne of David in the Temple at Jerusalem during the 1000 years. The Seraphim are symbolic creatures and the scene is set with the Temple and Mosaic details with Isaiah interacting with the vision as if the whole scenario was real. The whole earth will be filled with God's glory when the Kingdom is established.

Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus Christ IS The King of Israel and has NO need to be exalted to sit on ANY throne.
 
Greetings again johnny guitar,
And Isaiah saw The glory of Jesus Christ(YHWH).
In a way I enjoy some of your one-line statements, but many are simple flag waving of your Trinity doctrine. Yes, Isaiah beheld the future glory of Jesus John 12:36-41 when he will sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem, representing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.
Jesus Christ IS The King of Israel and has NO need to be exalted to sit on ANY throne.
Yes, Jesus is the King of Israel. He was exalted after his resurrection to sit down at the right hand of God in God the Father's Throne and he will soon return to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth and replace the present kingdoms of men. He will then be sitting as King / Priest on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem. Isaiah saw him in vision on this Throne in the Temple "high and lifted up" Isaiah 6:1 and this describes his exaltation. Isaiah 6:1 is parallel with Isaiah 2:1-4.

The following shows that he has and will attain this position of exaltation as a result of his sufferings and submission to the death on the cross:
Isaiah 52:13 (KJV): Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Isaiah 53:10–12 (KJV): 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again johnny guitar,

In a way I enjoy some of your one-line statements, but many are simple flag waving of your Trinity doctrine. Yes, Isaiah beheld the future glory of Jesus John 12:36-41 when he will sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem, representing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

Yes, Jesus is the King of Israel. He was exalted after his resurrection to sit down at the right hand of God in God the Father's Throne and he will soon return to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth and replace the present kingdoms of men. He will then be sitting as King / Priest on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem. Isaiah saw him in vision on this Throne in the Temple "high and lifted up" Isaiah 6:1 and this describes his exaltation. Isaiah 6:1 is parallel with Isaiah 2:1-4.

The following shows that he has and will attain this position of exaltation as a result of his sufferings and submission to the death on the cross:
Isaiah 52:13 (KJV): Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Isaiah 53:10–12 (KJV): 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus was The King of Israel at birth and was worshipped as such.
IOW Jesus is sitting on God's throne???Wow! He must be God.
Isaiah 6:1 says He saw the glory of YHWH, identified as Jesus Christ in John 12:41.
 
Greetings again johnny guitar,
Jesus was The King of Israel at birth and was worshipped as such.
Jesus is yet to return and sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem and then reign over the house of Jacob.
Luke 1:30–33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
IOW Jesus is sitting on God's throne???Wow! He must be God.
That is not what the following states and this is based upon Psalm 110:1:
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

The Father's Throne is in heaven. Jesus' Throne will be the Throne of David in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 6:1 says He saw the glory of YHWH, identified as Jesus Christ in John 12:41.
Yes, Jesus will reveal the glory of Yahweh when he sits upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again shnarkle,

I do not agree with "always was" as I consider Jesus Christ the Son of God had a beginning, and that was when he was conceived and born.
Christ Jesus points out that "apart from me, you can do nothing." How did anyone do anything prior to Jesus being conceived? The only logical conclusion is that when he refers to "me", he is not referring to the objective persona standing before them, but to the Word which is eternal life itself. This is the only true identity. You're ignoring Christ's own command to "deny yourself". Instead, you retain your separate sense of self which can only lead to objectifying Christ as well.

The Word which comes from God is the Son as Paul usefully observes in 1 Corinthians 8:6. Everything is created through Christ the Son, and he didn't start creating anything as soon as he was conceived or born into this world in the flesh.
I consider that the prophecy of Isaiah 6 was a vision of future things,
Your considerations don't seem to take into consideration that God and the entire celestial host of heaven are not confined by these abstract constructions of the mind.
when Christ will be exalted to sit upon the Throne of David in the Temple at Jerusalem during the 1000 years.
Jesus himself points out that there will come a time, and is already imminent when people will no longer worship in stone cold dead temples, but "in Spirit and truth."

He then points out that he will rebuild the temple in three days. John points out that his crucifixion was what glorified him and drew everyone to God. Once one stops creating or injecting these artificial impediments into the texts, it becomes obvious that there is nothing preventing the glory of God from shining throughout all of creation.

You're not considering the fact that the mystic has nothing standing in between him and God's glory. The darkness cannot comprehend light so one has to stop relying upon one's intellect as their mediator. Christ is the only mediator, and he is the light itself.
The Seraphim are symbolic creatures
By definition, Symbols are substitutions. What is being substituted with Isaiah?
and the scene is set with the Temple and Mosaic details with Isaiah interacting with the vision as if the whole scenario was real.
So you believe that his vision wasn't real? What was it then?
The whole earth will be filled with God's glory when the Kingdom is established.
God's kingdom was never overthrown. There are no limitations to God's glory. The thing you're not taking into consideration is the fact that it is only the darkened intellect that cannot see God's glory.

Once that superfluous mediator is eliminated, one is no longer prevented from experiencing God's glory. That hope is only found in Christ who is God's glory that shines eternally throughout all of God's creation.
Kind regards
Trevor
 
The first step in understanding the title "The Son of God" is described in Luke 1:34-35, then his character John 1:14, then his resurrection Romans 1:1-4.
Again, verses in isolation can be twisted to agree with someone's belief, but when read against the backdrop of Scripture and the culture of the time, it does not.


Jn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This teeters on 'only begotten'. What matters is how it was used during the time of Jesus and not how you would use it today.
Begotten carries several meanings, one of procreating and the other highly favored. Your assumption that begotten implies that Jesus came out of God fails for the following reason. One begets what one is, cat begets cat, dog begets dog, how does an eternal, immutable God begets an eternal immutable God?

Only begotten Μονογενής denotes the special relationship between parent and offspring {human} and is also used to note the special relationship between The Father and The Son. Has nothing to do with procreating. Note the following where it is used to denote relationship and not “begot” = “giving birth to”.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Abraham had multiple sons. If only begotten denotes procreation we have a problem because the author of Hebrews identifies Isaac as Abraham's only begotten son. Here only begotten = highly favored, nothing to do with birth.

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Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

If you arguing that being called the 'Son of God' implies that Jesus is a created being, then following your logic to a reasonable conclusion and applying this logic to Isaiah 9:6; being called Mighty God and Everlasting Father is explicit that Jesus is God.

Romans 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

“Son of” used by ancient Semitics and Orientals to indicate “likeness or sameness of nature and equality of being.” This was used by Jesus to claim that He was God. Notice what Paul wrote and did not write. Paul states that Jesus was proven, or declared to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead, and not His birth.


Elohim is translated as Angels in Psalm 8:5. Elohim can be God alone, God and the Angels, and the Angels as in Psalm 8:5.
It could, but it is not. What mattes is the immediate text, of Genesis 1:26-27, and not how elohym is used in Ps. 8:5. Elohim having multiple meanings does not imply that the meaning used in Ps 8:5 by necessity has to apply in Gen 1:26-27, when vs 27 identifies who Elohim is in vs 26. Again. What is the common thread between vs 26 and 27? "image". Vs 26 man’s creation is a future event by X , in the image and likeness of X. Vs 27 creation is a past event, man is made in the image and likeness of X. Who is X by name? Elohim.
If you are in disagreement you have to address what is highlighted and explain from the immediate text how it does or does not compute.
Many ancient and modern scholars have preserved and translated the Scriptures, but we need to be careful to endorse some of their beliefs.

Kind regards
Trevor
How do we test. How do we know that A or B is a common belief of the early church? When multiple authors of that time wrote about it as a belief. The following was a common belief of the early church.

Ignatius [50-117 AD] a disciple of John the Apostle.
"Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God."
ibid: "I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ."

Polycarp (AD 69-155) a disciple of John the Apostle.
In his letter to the Philippians
Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

Iranians A.D. 115 - 202, a student of Ignatius and Polycarp, two students of the apostle John, and the eventual bishop of Lugdunum, now Lyon France,

"For He fulfills the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Savior of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things that have been formed, the Only-Begotten of the Father."

ibid: "I have shown from the Scriptures that none of the sons of Adam are, absolutely and as to everything, called God, or named Lord. But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word.... He is the Holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God."

ibid: "Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem.... God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us.

ibid: "He is God, for the name Emmanuel indcates this."

ibid: "Christ Himself, therfore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers."

ibid: "Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has first passed into man?"

ibid: "It is plain that He was Himself the Word of God, who was made the son of man. He received from the Father the power of remission of sins. He was man, and He was God. This was so that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us."

Aristides (117-138 AD):
Eusebius, in his "Church History," makes reference to Aristides and his Apology (ca.325 CE),
"Aristides also, a believer earnestly devoted to our religion, left, like Quadratus, an apology for the faith, addressed to Hadrian. His work, too, has been preserved even to the present day by a great many persons." (Hist. Eccl. 4.3.3)

"The Christians trace the beginning of their religion to Jesus the Messiah. He is called the Son of the Most High God. It is said that God came down from heaven. He assumed flesh and clothed Himself with it from a Hebrew virgin."

Justin Martyr (c.100-160 AD): Most likely second generation disciple of an Apostle.
"The Word...He is Divine."
ibid: "The Father of the universe has a Son. And He, being the First-Begotten Word of God, is even God."
ibid: "For Christ is King, Priest, God, Lord, Angel, and Man."
ibid: "He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ."
ibid: "David predicted that He would be born from the womb before the sun and moon, according to the Father's will. He made Him known, being Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped."
ibid: "The Son ministered to the will of the Father. Yet, nevertheless, He is God, in that He is the First-Begotten of all creatures."
ibid: "If you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the Only, Unbegottten, Unuttterable God."

This is a sample of the many Early Church Fathers that believed in the deity of Jesus. Jesus being God or belief in the Trinity is common thread throughout the ECF writings. These were the apologist that defended, taught and preserved Christianity. Its hypocritical to state that one believes that the Bible is inerrant but not to believe the writing of the one's that were entrusted with the chain of custody. These are people who were closest and local to the events described in the Gospels.
 
Greetings again Towerwatchman,

We know that Moses died and was buried, and yet he appeared in glory on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus. How do you explain the word "glory" wrt Moses,
Again you are reading into Scripture what it does not say. Nowhere does it state that Moses appeared in glory, he just appeared.
and do the "Spirits" of the departed look like the individual or are they like ghosts?
From scripture it seems there is some resemblance of the departed. As to ghosts that's Hollywood.
I do not believe in conscious immortal souls and immaterial spirits.
Strong defines soul as the following:

5590 ψυχή [psuche /psoo·khay/] n f. From 5594; TDNT 9:608; TDNTA 1342; GK 6034; 105 occurrences; AV translates as “soul” 58 times, “life” 40 times, “mind” three times, “heart” once, “heartily + 1537” once, and not translated twice. 1 breath. 1a the breath of life. 1a1 the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing. 1a1a of animals. 1a12 of men. 1b life. 1c that in which there is life. 1c1 a living being, a living soul. 2 the soul. 2a the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.). 2b the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life. 2c the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body).

Here is just a sample of what the Bible states.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Soul = psuche, used to designate the part of a man that continues after his body is dead.

Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Soul = psuche. Soul cannot be “physical living beings”. Note the text. “I saw under the altar the living souls of those who had been slain for the word of God”. Also they are conscious evident by their ability to communicate after being killed.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
If man does not have a soul or spirit what did Jesus receive when Stephen died?

Take note of what Jesus said to the Sadducees,= they held the belief that the soul is not immortal. Jesus is saying that the patriarchs are alive at that present moment, even though their bodies are not. Notice the ending “all live to Him.” Live is present not future tense indicating that they are living.
Lu 20:37-38 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”.

Php 1:23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you
How can Paul depart from the body and be with Christ? Notice vs 24, the soul is separate from the flesh.

2 Co 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
How can you be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

When he was a child he learnt wisdom Luke 2:40,52.
Throughout the Gospels we see Jesus acting as God would and as a human would. As God He commanded the sea to be still (Mark 4:35-41) and forgave sins (Luke 7:48). As a man He was born naturally from a woman (Matt. 1:23-25; Luke 2:6-7), He was hungry and ate food (Matt. 4:2; Luke 24:42-43) and He slept (Mark 4:38).

Trins believe that Jesus is 100% deity and 100% humanity. Jesus did not lay aside any attribute but laid aside the use of any attribute while on earth. At His discretion Jesus exercised His attributes as God. And in His humanity He did not exercise His attribute. This means He had to grow in wisdom and knowledge. As God, Jesus is omniscient, as a man Jesus has limited knowledge, and somehow neither nature was limited. This is a far as I can go. To be able to fully explain how this works requires me to know the depth and width of God.

My fellowship and beliefs preceded the JWs and we disagree on many aspects especially as we believe that Jesus will return and establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and will convert a significant remnant of the nation of Israel and submit and educate the nations. The JW worldview is the complete destruction of the nations, and the preservation of 144,000 in heaven and many more JWs on the earth.
Those are minor issues. The corner stone of the JW is the denial of the deity of Jesus.
 
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