Open Heart
Well-known member
ROFL. Like I said, we shall have to agree to disagree agreeablyXenophon was writing about 400 BCE, far older then the books of the Bible books
ROFL. Like I said, we shall have to agree to disagree agreeablyXenophon was writing about 400 BCE, far older then the books of the Bible books
There was no Judea when the Torah laws were first given. And given that Judaism is the religion of Jews today, I would not reduce them to "nothing but relics."
Actually, Jesus learned this from the Rabbis of the time. You need the details in Torah to know how to love God and man.
ROFL. Like I said, we shall have to agree to disagree agreeablyMoses is thought to have lived in the 14-15th century BCE. that's a mellenium before Xenophone.
So, your god was born, created.This is totally wrong. The part of God called the Word, emptied Himself of His deity to become implanted in Mary. She bore Jesus Christ.
Human sacrifices were never required. So, this argument doesn't fly.The Word was not a created being. Because of the sin nature, there was no man that could give his life to reconcile us to God.
That's because a sacrifice wasn't a blank ticket to cover all sins in the future. Just look at how Christians handle Jesus' blood.And the blood of bulls and goats couldn't even come close. It had to be repeated over and over.
Ironically, Paul says Satan hasn't been defeated.Jesus' death for three days reconciled mankind to God, defeating Satan in those who accept His gift to us.
Sorry, but I see you just as much a sinner as everyone else. I've seen it in this forum.You don't believe in Him, so haven't received any of the promises. The freedom from sin results in resting in Christ, and our abiding in Him, and He in us is a Sabbath rest. Not just once a week, but every moment of every day.
This is funny. You've said you don't need to memorize the law. It's automatic. You seem to have contradicted yourself.Yes, I refer back to the law to keep myself pure.
That's really nice. If that makes you happy, that's great.That is why my ex-husband from 20 years ago is still the LAST man I kissed. I don't date. I just study the Word. And with God inside of me, I know what Isaiah 54:5 means first hand, so I wear my wedding rings.
God is eternal having no beginning nor end. Jesus even said, "Before Abraham was, I AM.So, your god was born, created.
Human sacrifices were never required. So, this argument doesn't fly.
That's because a sacrifice wasn't a blank ticket to cover all sins in the future. Just look at how Christians handle Jesus' blood.
Ironically, Paul says Satan hasn't been defeated.
Sorry, but I see you just as much a sinner as everyone else. I've seen it in this forum.
This is funny. You've said you don't need to memorize the law. It's automatic. You seem to have contradicted yourself.
That's really nice. If that makes you happy, that's great.
Yes, referring to God, not himself.God is eternal having no beginning nor end. Jesus even said, "Before Abraham was, I AM.
Who said he was sinless?Not in the Old Testament. There was no one sinless enough, until Jesus.
Maybe because we're told outright that human sacrifices are idolatrous and not needed. Micah 6:6-8.The had to use bulls and goats and lambs, but that was just a temporary fix. Jesus made the ultimate forever sacrifice. It wasn't something taught in the Old Testament, so maybe it just never came up in your schooling.
So, there are sins that require sacrifices and monetary payments combined. I don't recall Jesus making monetary payments for those sins, do you?Jesus blood covered all past sins, and only unintentional sin in the future. I see it being the same as the Old Testament, except His blood covered all past unrighteousness even murder. The whole sin nature was taken away and forgotten. In the Old Covenant nothing could take away the sin nature. That makes the New Covenant unique.
I don't care for the NT so it doesn't matter.It seems John and Paul disagree then. But Paul did write some of his own opinions not inspired by God. Christians don't like to hear me say that. LOL
But either way, you've still sinned.There is a difference between lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness - sins unto death. If you've seen me sin on here, that is either a misunderstanding on your part, or unintentional on mine. So I'm good. My conscience is clear.
Great for you.I verified what I was feeling in my conscience with what was written about marriage and remarriage, and what the Spirit told me was right.
Mazal tov!Thanks. I finally found a husband worth sharing my life with!
Jesus was who spoke in the burning bush, but as the Word of God.Yes, referring to God, not himself.
The New Testament. "he was tempted in all thing, and yet without sin."Who said he was sinless?
Maybe because we're told outright that human sacrifices are idolatrous and not needed. Micah 6:6-8.
His blood was enough.So, there are sins that require sacrifices and monetary payments combined. I don't recall Jesus making monetary payments for those sins, do you?
I don't care for the NT so it doesn't matter.
But either way, you've still sinned.
No, the fire was an angel, Psalm 104:3-4, and God the Father spoke as He did at Sinai. Jesus wasn't born yet.Jesus was who spoke in the burning bush, but as the Word of God.
As you've said, there's also sins of omission, unknowingly. Hebrews 5:7 points to his prayer as a penitent.The New Testament. "he was tempted in all thing, and yet without sin."
They did know. That's why only the idolatrous are said to have offered their children to Moloch, etc.The Old Testament saints didn't know.
It didn't even make it to the right place, the altar. He even came up short on monetary payments required.His blood was enough.
That wouldn't make a dent on money owed.Maybe it was the thirty pieces of silver that Judas returned. LOL
No such thing.Your loss...
No false witness on my part. You've already admitted to not keeping the true Sabbath, and worshipping a god our fathers didn't know.Are you and another witness willing to share? Or are you bearing false witness?
No, the fire was an angel, Psalm 104:3-4, and God the Father spoke as He did at Sinai. Jesus wasn't born yet.
As you've said, there's also sins of omission, unknowingly. Hebrews 5:7 points to his prayer as a penitent.
They did know. That's why only the idolatrous are said to have offered their children to Moloch, etc.
No false witness on my part. You've already admitted to not keeping the true Sabbath, and worshipping a god our fathers didn't know.
No, I get it. God doesn't have parts, He isn't physical. The Father spoke the words of creation as Tanakh shows. There wasn't a son involved.You don't get it, though I did explain it. Part of God that is the Word of God BECAME Jesus. That part of Jesus was eternal. The Word became flesh in order to be seen and to also die.
That isn't true. Jesus was born in the future.Jesus is seen throughout the Old Testament as "the Angel of the Lord."
Really? I haven't seen worship of an angel. We do see people bowing to kings, prophets, angels, etc.Note, no created angel of any rank will allow himself to be worshiped. But the "Angel of the Lord" will. Why? Because He is that part of God that became Jesus. He can be SEEN. The Father and the Spirit cannot be seen.
And you haven't convinced me but been corrected.Already gone over this with you.
Again, God said flat out child sacrifices were idolatrous and never required.Don't you know that Satan cannot create anything, only counterfeit, so that no one will believe in the true. He did a good job with you it seems if his ruse worked. It is the same with the gifts of the Spirit. Satan counterfeits all of them too so people are scared and believe they are "of the devil."
You keep your own idea of the Sabbath, not what has been commanded. The spirit, will, desire, ruach, of the Sabbath is to keep it by resting and showing it is a sign with Israel. You're not there.I keep the true meaning of the Sabbath. You don't know the spiritual aspect of the Sabbath, and therefore don't keep God inside of you. You are still just a man with a sin nature, trying your best to keep the letter of the law; but that won't make you truly righteous, and far from holy.
Your response is vacuous. Even Jesus acknowledges he isn't God. Besides, if you die like a man, then you're a man."He only had one nature" is a theological claim unjustified by anything. Therefore, this response is vacuous.
Rotfl... Moses doesn't call anyone YHWH in these passages as he wasn't around.DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
I didn't say Abraham addressed anyone as YHWH. I told you that Moses called him YHWH. Try reading what I wrote next time.What we do see are the angels acting and speaking in YHWH's name. Emissaries, as these men were, have the authority to do that. That's why Abraham doesn't call any of the men YHWH.
Then God's son didn't die and no sacrifice occurred. Figures.DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
One of Jesus' natures died, but his God nature, the nature that is naturally being referred to when one says "a sacrifice of God", didn't die.
None. Let me ask you something. Does a son share the same nature as his father?
Yes, so the men went away. Abraham was left standing before the LORD as we all do when we pray.DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Really?
Then YHWH said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.” So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before YHWH. Genesis 18:20-22
Even with your answer, there are other cities as part of the Sodom and Gomorrah region. We aren't told where the other man went.DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
You do realize the topography of the region? Abraham and the men, YHWH and the two angels who are to visit Lot, were in the hill country while Sodom and Gomorrah were in the valley. Coming down relates to traveling down into the valley. Even this excuse fails to take into the consideration what Moses wrote. Do you even care what Scripture says?
Meaningful?
Where do you get God can take up another nature, which in effect changes His original perfect nature?DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
of our position when allegedly pointing out contradictions, how can anyone take you seriously? We did not say God ceased to be God. We didn't say God as God died—which is what (1) is referring to. So, that he died as man doesn't imply that God's divine nature died. So, no contradiction. (2) distinguishes God's nature from man's nature. It doesn't imply God can't take up a secondary nature. So, no contradiction. Need I go on?
Which is false because there is no real union in this Hypostasic idea.Have you ever interacted with the concept of the Hypostatic union? In Christianity, Jesus had two distinct natures: God and man. As God, he was always God and cannot die. In time, Jesus took up a secondary nature as man.
So, what's interesting is that you've admitted that God's nature can't die, i.e, bleed, etc. by implication. So, neither did His nature walk on earth then.DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
As man, Jesus was not God because he was man. As God, Jesus was God. By one nature, Jesus is God; by the other nature, Jesus was man, not God. We are not talking about some blending of the two natures.
Of course it is. And the NT contradicts itself below.DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
One person with two natures. This may be weird to some; it might make no sense, but there is nothing illogical about this.
This is the funny thing about your theology. You flat out point out that Jesus isn't God in these passages, ie., he's limited, etc.DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
And, this is exactly what Paul teaches in Philipians 2:6-7: "who, though he was in form God, did not count equality with God a thing to be held onto, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."
If you understood Jewish thought, what is being taught was that Jesus was born king according to the gospel, and as such had certain rights associated with this. Kings are associated with God, like God, Zechariah 12:8, and Jesus set this aside to be a servant temporarily. You'll find that the terms elohim, theos, kyrioa, are associated with men, judges, angels, kings, etc., and don't imply divinity.
Moses was God before Pharaoh, Exodus 7:1, as are judges, Exodus 21:6, 22:8-9; Psalm 82:6, angels, Psalm 8:5; Abraham as God, Genesis 23:6; the house of David like God and the angel of YHWH, Zechariah 12:8, etc.So, you choose to ignore Scripture and assert dogma.
Do you accept these cases involve divinity?
The concepts of the Hypostatic union and Jesus having 2 natures are theories put forward by trinitarians to explain the trinity and Jesus' divinity. Jesus himself never expounded those ideas.Have you ever interacted with the concept of the Hypostatic union? In Christianity, Jesus had two distinct natures:
I have a simple question. If you travelled 2000 years back in time and saw Jesus face to face, would you say you have seen God?
Because if John writes "no one has seen God" (1John 4:12) it automatically follows that the Jesus he saw face to face was not God.
I know you'll quote that verse from Philippians again, but Paul also writes that no one has seen or can see God.
- which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen (1Timothy 6:15-16)
Moses also says YHWH appeared to Hagar in Genesis 16. But the text establishes that it was the "angel of the Lord" that spoke to Hagar.When Moses himself says YHWH appeared to Abraham, I believe YHWH appeared before Abraham.
The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert... (Genesis 16:7)
She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.” (Genesis 16:13)
Same thing with Jacob when he wrestles a man/angel but then says he saw "God".
All that's happening is that the angel sent by YHWH is addressed as YHWH for whatever reason. So it's the same thing in Abraham's case. He saw 3 men/angels and God was not among them, because "no one can see God".
The Father spoke the words of creation as Tanakh shows. There wasn't a son involved.
That isn't true. Jesus was born in the future.
Really? I haven't seen worship of an angel. We do see people bowing to kings, prophets, angels, etc.
Again, God said flat out child sacrifices were idolatrous and never required.
You keep your own idea of the Sabbath, not what has been commanded. The spirit, will, desire, ruach, of the Sabbath is to keep it by resting and showing it is a sign with Israel. You're not there.
Even the Tanakh never uses "word" as a person. It's only the Father that created, Deut 32:6.He wasn't called the son in the Old Testament. He was God's Word and was part of God. And through God's Word creation came forth.
God has a mind and can just think the words. Either way, Tanakh is clear the Father created.Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light." God doesn't have a physical mouth, but His words were part of His, just as Jesus as a human was.
No angel has been worshipped. Bowing isn't exclusively worship. I guess David was worshipped when people bowed to him. He should have stopped it?Right, but the Word of God existed then, and the Angel of the Lord could be seen. The Father cannot. The Angel of the Lord allowed them to worship Him, whereas no created angel would, or did that fact get past you. Now you know. LOL
Moses bowed at God's voice, not at the fire angel.2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
No mention of the angel being Jesus. You have an active imagination.Jewijitzu, the Angel of the Lord was that part of God that was put into Mary and produced Jesus. He wasn't a created being, neither the angel, nor part of Jesus. The human Jesus was who God called His Son. Before, the Word was just the tangible part of God. And it was Jesus who proclaimed the New Covenant through His words.
No, even Jesus says God isn't flesh and blood, Mat 16:17.I agree. But God sacrificed HIMSELF. He gave His life through Jesus - the Word.
Actually, God has said He swears, singularly, by Himself. There aren't 3."There are three who bear witness in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Spirit; and these three are one."
Isaac was flesh.This is why the Old Law was of the flesh, just as Abraham's son Ishmael was of his carnal nature. Isaac was the son of promise.
Then he didn't fulfill the commandments regarding sacrifices.This is why Israel was from Isaac's line. And Jesus was through King David's line. It is amazing how God is in the details. And I appreciate your saying that Jesus blood was not on the altar. But Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just Israel. His blood spilled on the earth. See, God is still in the details.
The 7th seventh day is the only true Sabbath.The true Sabbath:
Jesus: Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Even the Tanakh never uses "word" as a person. It's only the Father that created, Deut 32:6.
God has a mind and can just think the words. Either way, Tanakh is clear the Father created.
No angel has been worshipped. Bowing isn't exclusively worship. I guess David was worshipped when people bowed to him. He should have stopped it?
Moses bowed at God's voice, not at the fire angel.
No mention of the angel being Jesus. You have an active imagination.
Exactly, so He had to put part of Himself into Mary to produce a being/human that could die.No, even Jesus says God isn't flesh and blood, Mat 16:17.
Isaac was flesh.
Then he didn't fulfill the commandments regarding sacrifices.
The 7th seventh day is the only true Sabbath.