God's Foreknowledge

Bald denial.

yours
Bald denial.

yours
Bald denial.

yours
Bald denial.
yours
Irrelevant.

"2 Peter does not say how it was given".
It still says it was given.

no it says obtained not given

why must you alter scripture to support your theology?


Nope.
Words have meaning.

then heed them obtain and given have not the same meaning
Bald denial.

yours
So you reject Rom. 3:10-20, and Isa. 64:6.
Good to know.

Nope Acts 16:30 still speaks of what the jailor must do

Acts 16:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

PS neither reference you give mentions any inability to believe
 
yours

yours

yours

yours

fltom: The king of "I know you are but what am I?"
Grow up, tom.

no it says obtained not given

Somebody please explain to Tom what "synonyms" are.
Funny, he knows what synonyms are when he thinks it helps him, but when it doesn't he wants "exact words".
Double standards much?

why must you alter scripture to support your theology?

I don't (since you asked).
You're the only one who "alters scripture".

then heed them obtain and given have not the same meaning

Then you deny synonyms.

Acts 16:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

PS neither reference you give mentions any inability to believe

That's because you refuse to read them.
For the lurkers:
Isa. 64:6
Rom. 3:10-20
John 6:44
1 Cor. 2:14
Rom. 8:6-8
Rom. 6:16-18
John 8:32
Eph. 2:1
Col. 2:13
 
fltom: The king of "I know you are but what am I?"
Grow up, tom.

follow your own advise and domore than claim denial
Somebody please explain to Tom what "synonyms" are.
Funny, he knows what synonyms are when he thinks it helps him, but when it doesn't he wants "exact words".
Double standards much?

you are altering the meaning of words

the verse simply does not say how obtained so you are just reading your theology into the verse

I don't (since you asked).
You're the only one who "alters scripture".

i am not the one who atered obtained to given
Then you deny synonyms.

still assuming your view
That's because you refuse to read them.
For the lurkers:
Isa. 64:6
Rom. 3:10-20
John 6:44
1 Cor. 2:14
Rom. 8:6-8
Rom. 6:16-18
John 8:32
Eph. 2:1
Col. 2:13
None of those verses support your view

col 2:13 refutes you

Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

one must have their sins remitted before being made alive

and that requites repentance and faith

You had run from that verse when discussed previously

eph 2 in context does as well

Ephesians 2:1–8 (KJV 1900) — 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

being made alive is salvation and it is through faith as verse 8 notes

Neither Rom 3 or Isa 64 mention any capability to believe

john 6:44 is followed by

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

showing what is needed is relevation then men can believed as confirmed John 20:31; 17:20 Rom 10:10-17

rom 8:6-8 speaks of obeying the law not the ability to believe

rom 6;16-18 speaks of being a slave to sin not rthe inability to confess you are a slave and accept grace from God

1cor 2:14 speaks of that which is hid in the mind of God

without the spirit no one can know it

it is a stretch to say having been revealed by the spirit and preached by the apostles one cannot know it

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

you rob the word of God of its power and make the gospel powerless
 
follow your own advise and domore than claim denial

Please learn how to spell.

you are altering the meaning of words

Bald denial.

i am not the one who atered obtained to given

Please learn how to spell.

col 2:13 refutes you

I respectfully disagree.

Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

one must have their sins remitted before being made alive

That doesn't refute my view.
Try again.

and that requites repentance and faith

Please learn how to spell.

Ephesians 2:1–8 (KJV 1900) — 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Thanks for proving that regeneration precedes faith!

being made alive is salvation and it is through faith as verse 8 notes

"Through" faith, not "because of" faith.
Learn the meaning of words.

Neither Rom 3 or Isa 64 mention any capability to believe

You're finally beginning to understand!
Those who are dead in sin have no "capability to believe"!

john 6:44 is followed by

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So you're quoting v.45 to deny v.44
You're changing, "NO MAN can come to me", to "EVERYONE can come to me, all they have to do is..."

No, v.45 is explaining HOW God draws His elect to Himself.
It is not teaching how "we get ourselves drawn".

Does a carriage "get itself drawn"?
Does air "get itself drawn"?
Does a sword "get itself drawn"?
Does a pistol "get itself drawn"?
Does a card "get itself drawn"?

No, there has to be a "draw-er", someone who DOES the drawing.

Words have meaning, Tom...

showing what is needed is relevation then men can believed as confirmed John 20:31; 17:20 Rom 10:10-17

Please learn how to spell.

Also try to learn some grammar. "can believed"? Seriously?!

rom 8:6-8 speaks of obeying the law not the ability to believe

Bald denial.

rom 6;16-18 speaks of being a slave to sin not rthe inability to confess you are a slave and accept grace from God

Bald denial.

1cor 2:14 speaks of that which is hid in the mind of God

Bald denial.

without the spirit no one can know it

Bingo!
You're finally beginning to understand Total Depravity!
Congratulations!

you rob the word of God of its power and make the gospel powerless

EDITED
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You're finally beginning to understand!
Those who are dead in sin have no "capability to believe"!

That is your assumption

Col 2:13 refutes you that is why you run from it

Remission of sin is shown to preceded being made alive

and remission of sin sin requires faith and repentance


So you're quoting v.45 to deny v.44
You're changing, "NO MAN can come to me", to "EVERYONE can come to me, all they have to do is..."

No, v.45 is explaining HOW God draws His elect to Himself.
It is not teaching how "we get ourselves drawn".

Does a carriage "get itself drawn"?
Does air "get itself drawn"?
Does a sword "get itself drawn"?
Does a pistol "get itself drawn"?
Does a card "get itself drawn"?

No, there has to be a "draw-er", someone who DOES the drawing.

Words have meaning, Tom...
So why don't you follow them then

Man is not an inanimate carriage, air, sword, pistol, card

The same Greek word for “drawn” is used in the LXX in Neh 9:30… (esdras 19:30) and that group of Israelites, though drawn by God to the opportunity to obey Him, did not do it.



Nehemiah 9:30 (YLT)

30 `And Thou drawest over them many years, and testifiest against them by Thy Spirit, by the hand of Thy prophets, and they have not given ear, and Thou dost give them into the hand of peoples of the lands,



The Hebrew word for “drawn” used in Neh 9:30 is also used in Hos 11:4-5, which again is showing that Israel was “drawn” by God with love to Himself, but they refused Him. Brian Wagner

you ignore

, in John 6 and 12 where the word is not being used to describe purely physical interactions, but interpersonal interactions between the Spirit of God and the spirit of man.



Jeremiah 31:3–4 (KJV 1900)

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying,

Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:

Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:

Thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,

And shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.



Helko is also used at 4Macc 14:13; 15:11(8) influence




Bingo!
You're finally beginning to understand Total Depravity!
Congratulations!



Bearing false witness is a sin, Tom.
so don't do it

and learn to read

1cor 2:14 speaks of that which is hid in the mind of God



without the spirit no one can know it

it does not speak of the revealed gospel
 
Col 2:13 refutes you that is why you run from it

No, it doesn't "refute" me.
And refusing to waste my time arguing with you is not "running away".
So please lose the childish insults and false accusations.

Remission of sin is shown to preceded being made alive
You continue to conflate regeneration with eternal life.
They are not the same thing.
This is why I have no interest in arguing with you, since you refuse to accept correction, you refuse to "agree to disagree", and then you try to argue the same wrong thing ten million times.

You bring up a verse like Col. 2:13 a hundred times.
I refute you a hundred times.
And then when you continue to bring it up again, and I'm tired of repeating myself, you falsely accuse me of "running away".
What is wrong with you?

So why don't you follow them then

I do.

Man is not an inanimate carriage, air, sword, pistol, card

Corpses are.
And we're spiritually dead, until/unless God regenerates us.
The Bible is FULL of descriptions of the incapacity of man;
Isa. 64:6;
John 6:44
Rom. 8:7-8
1 Cor. 2:14
John 8:34
Rom. 6:16-18
Eph. 2:1
Col. 2:13 <-- the verse you falsely accuse me of "running away" from.

The same Greek word for “drawn”

You don't even UNDERSTAND Greek.
So who do you think you're fooling?

Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω>it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?

"draw a gun"
"with-drawl"
"draw a sword"
"draw blood"
"draw blinds"
"draw interest"
"draw curtains"
"draw a breath"
"draw a cheque"
"the honey drew flies";
“the light drew moths”;
"the enemy drew fire";
"horse-drawn carriage";
"draw the short straw"
"draw on a bank account";
"draw water from a well"
"amount of power drawn";
"draw a card from a deck”
"draw a bow" (archery);
"the college drew students";
"the performance drew cheers";
"draw-er" (you drag/pull it open);
"draw" (winning ticket) for a 50/50 draw;
"the prisoner was drawn and quartered";
“draw on a cigarette" ("take a draw");

The Hebrew word for “drawn” used in Neh 9:30 is also used in Hos 11:4-5, which again is showing that Israel was “drawn” by God with love to Himself, but they refused Him. Brian Wagner

We're not talking about Hebrew words.
We're talking about Greek words, found in the Greek Scriptures.

Helko is also used at 4Macc 14:13; 15:11(8) influence

No, it's not.
Maccabees was written in Hebrew, not Greek.

1cor 2:14 speaks of that which is hid in the mind of God

Wow...
So 1 Cor. 2:7 (which is 7 verses away) is allegedly part of the "context" of v.14, but:
- John 1:13 isn't part of the context of John 1:12 (it's part of the SAME sentence!)
- Heb. 2:10 isn't part of the context of Heb. 2:9?

Double standards much?

it does not speak of the revealed gospel

Bald denial.
 
No, it doesn't "refute" me.
And refusing to waste my time arguing with you is not "running away".
So please lose the childish insults and false accusations.
Yes it does

The verse puts remission of sin before being made alive

can you deny faith is required for remission of sin

at this point you run away



You continue to conflate regeneration with eternal life.
They are not the same thing.
This is why I have no interest in arguing with you, since you refuse to accept correction, you refuse to "agree to disagree", and then you try to argue the same wrong thing ten million times.
You simply refuse to accept correction

regeneration is the impartation of life which is of eternal duration

Although the word regeneration is used only twice in the Bible (Titus 3:5, where it refers to the new birth, and Mt 19:28 where it refers to the millennial kingdom), the concept of being born again is found in other passages, notably John 3. Technically, it is God’s act of begetting eternal life in the one who believes in Christ.
A survey of bible doctrine

(6) spiritual or eternal life, a state of regeneration or renewal in holiness and fellowship with God (John 3:15–16, 36; 5:24; 6:47); (7) the life that is in Christ and God—divine life itself (John 1:4; 1 John 1:1–2; 5:11).[2]

Evangelical dictionary of theology

c) Eternal life, which begins not after death, but immediately upon the regeneration of the sinner, as all life has its beginning in birth. John 3:14, 15, 1 John 4:9.[3]

An aid to the Heidelberg Cathecism

Calvinist source


Regeneration

It is the act of God whereby He renews the spiritual condition of a sinner. It is a spiritual change brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit so that the person then possesses new life–eternal life

CARM

1John 5:1 regeneration before faith | Page 117 | CARM Forums



forums.carm.org/threads/1john-5-1-regeneration-before-faith.10096/page-117

another Calvinist source

Regeneration is the divine action by which God renews the fallen creation so that it reflects his character.

For human beings, regeneration is the answer to the corruption of moral character caused by sin. It is essential for participation in the kingdom of God (John 3:3). At conversion, God grants the believer new life and a new identity in Christ. This event is so powerful that John refers to it as a new birth, a birth “from above” (John 3:3), while Paul refers to it as a “new creation” (2 Cor 5:17). In either case, the change is brought about by the Holy Spirit, who comes to indwell the believer. Those born of the Spirit receive not an extension of mortal life but eternal life, a life which has the quality of God’s own. Lexham survey of theology



REGENERATION

The term regeneration comes from a Greek word meaning “rebirth” or “new genesis.” The term signifies the renewal of the fallen creation through the redemptive work of Christ. The actual term “regeneration” is found only twice in Scripture, once for the renewal of all things (Mt 19:28; cf. Ac 3:21, “restoration of all things”) and once for the present inner spiritual renewal of believers. The same concept of renewal is expressed in the language of a new heart (e.g., Eze 36:26f), of a new birth (e.g., Jn 3:3, 7), of new persons through union with Christ in death and resurrection (e.g., Ro 6:4–8), and a new creation including persons (e.g., 2 Co 5:17) and the heavens and earth (e.g., Re 21:1). All of these concepts of renewal belong to the one great action of God in bringing eternal life and incorruptibility to fallen creation.

NASB Topical index


[1] Charles Caldwell Ryrie, A Survey of Bible Doctrine (Chicago: Moody Press, 1972).
[2] Walter A. Elwell, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology: Second Edition (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2001), 394.
[3] Otto Thelemann, An Aid to the Heidelberg Catechism, trans. M. Peters (Reading, PA: James I. Good, D. D, Publisher, 1896), 154.






You bring up a verse like Col. 2:13 a hundred times.
I refute you a hundred times.
And then when you continue to bring it up again, and I'm tired of repeating myself, you falsely accuse me of "running away".
What is wrong with you?


LOL
You can't refute an argument by running away from it

Can you have remission of sin without faith?

Readers watch him stumble or run
 
The verse puts remission of sin before being made alive

No, it doesn't.

can you deny faith is required for remission of sin

SHOW US how Col. 2:13 allegedly shows "faith is required for remission of sin".
That is your ASSUMPTION.
You are projecting your false theology onto the text.

at this point you run away

Wrong.
There's nothing to "run away" FROM.
Because you haven't demonstrated anything.

All you do is harass me and try to force me to argue with you, bully.

You simply refuse to accept correction

No, you refuse to.
That's why we need to "agree to disagree".
But no, you would rather waste my time by being a broken record.

regeneration is the impartation of life which is of eternal duration

So you admit that they are not the same thing.
So why are you trying to force me to argue with you when you agree with me?

Although the word regeneration is used only twice in the Bible (Titus 3:5, where it refers to the new birth, and Mt 19:28 where it refers to the millennial kingdom), the concept of being born again is found in other passages, notably John 3. Technically, it is God’s act of begetting eternal life in the one who believes in Christ.
A survey of bible doctrine

100% agreement.
They are different.

(6) spiritual or eternal life, a state of regeneration or renewal in holiness and fellowship with God (John 3:15–16, 36; 5:24; 6:47); (7) the life that is in Christ and God—divine life itself (John 1:4; 1 John 1:1–2; 5:11).[2]

Evangelical dictionary of theology

I would disagree with this non-Biblical source.

c) Eternal life, which begins not after death, but immediately upon the regeneration of the sinner, as all life has its beginning in birth. John 3:14, 15, 1 John 4:9.[3]

And this source agrees with me as well.
Eternal life comes immediately AFTER regeneration.


It is the act of God whereby He renews the spiritual condition of a sinner. It is a spiritual change brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit so that the person then possesses new life–eternal life

The Catechism agrees with me as well.

Regeneration, THEN eternal life.
They are different things, happening at different times.

You really should learn what the word, "then" means.


You're quoting a source which PROVES regeneration before faith.
How self-unaware can you be?

Regeneration is the divine action by which God renews the fallen creation so that it reflects his character.

For human beings, regeneration is the answer to the corruption of moral character caused by sin. It is essential for participation in the kingdom of God (John 3:3). At conversion, God grants the believer new life and a new identity in Christ. This event is so powerful that John refers to it as a new birth, a birth “from above” (John 3:3), while Paul refers to it as a “new creation” (2 Cor 5:17). In either case, the change is brought about by the Holy Spirit, who comes to indwell the believer. Those born of the Spirit receive not an extension of mortal life but eternal life, a life which has the quality of God’s own. Lexham survey of theology

Again, the author makes the distinction between "regeneration", and "eternal life", which you not only IGNORE, but you try to make the author contradict himself, since his entire argument is that regneration precedes faith.

REGENERATION

The term regeneration comes from a Greek word meaning “rebirth” or “new genesis.” The term signifies the renewal of the fallen creation through the redemptive work of Christ. The actual term “regeneration” is found only twice in Scripture, once for the renewal of all things (Mt 19:28; cf. Ac 3:21, “restoration of all things”) and once for the present inner spiritual renewal of believers. The same concept of renewal is expressed in the language of a new heart (e.g., Eze 36:26f), of a new birth (e.g., Jn 3:3, 7), of new persons through union with Christ in death and resurrection (e.g., Ro 6:4–8), and a new creation including persons (e.g., 2 Co 5:17) and the heavens and earth (e.g., Re 21:1). All of these concepts of renewal belong to the one great action of God in bringing eternal life and incorruptibility to fallen creation.

You didn't bother to read this article, did you?

It says regeneration "bringing" eternal life, proving that they are not the same thing.

You can't refute an argument by running away from it

You can't win an argument so you have to bully me and try to force me to argue with you. How pathetic is that?

Can you have remission of sin without faith?

Well, you hold the nonsensical position that someone can have faith but not believe, so I guess for you, anything goes.

Readers watch him stumble or run

"When the name-calling begins,
the debate is over".

Tom, why do you try to argue about Christianity, when you can't even act like a Christian?
 
The verse puts remission of sin before being made alive


Theo1689 said
No, it doesn't.

Sure it does

and you agreed

.............................................................




fltom said:

Having forgiven us (χαρισαμενος ἡμιν [charisamenos hēmin]). First aorist middle participle of χαριζομαι [charizomai], common verb from χαρις [charis] (favour, grace). Dative of the person common as in 3:13. The act of forgiving is simultaneous with the quickening, though logically antecedent

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Col 2:13.


Theo stated



Correct. God's act of forgiving precedes the quickening.
But faith does NOT precede the quickening.
................................................................

hello why do you deny your own words

You have a habit of doing so






can you deny faith is required for remission of sin
Theo1689
SHOW US how Col. 2:13 allegedly shows "faith is required for remission of sin".
That is your ASSUMPTION.
You are projecting your false theology onto the text.

Who said col 2:13

scripture as a whole

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

notice the interplay between justification and remission of sin


Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Readers note Theo not only denies his own words but denies the need of faith before one may have his sin remitted


at this point you run away

Wrong.
There's nothing to "run away" FROM.
Because you haven't demonstrated anything.

there is plenty

you ran from your own words to start with

and you denied remission of sin requires faith

and have God granting to unbelievers that which is only granted in Christ

Ephesians 1:7–8 (KJV 1900) — 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

readers observe


PS noting your running is not name calling
 
I'm confused.
Do you get some sort of a prize for spamming the forum by posting the same garbage post 100 times?
Do you really not care that it is completely destroying your credibility?
I'm more confused

do you think constantly denying your own words which had been quoted and linked to is a wise thing to do

and that somehow it impacts you positively being seen denying your own words
 
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