Gods Sovereignty, what does that mean ?

[Theo1689]

Too long-winded and boring. I can say it a lot simpler and better than that. God is sovereign over all of his creation, but at the same time he is able to grant full libertarian freewill to his creatures without infringing his own sovereignty.

That's nonsense.
That's like saying, "God is able to create a sphere with corners."

It's also nonsensical. We're not as much interested in what YOU think God "is able to" do, but rather what Scripture says God HAS actually done. Otherwise you're simply engaging in self-serving rationalization.

 

[JDS]

If you can't find it in your bible, do a simple google search and you will be overwhelmed by the truth of it all... or maybe you won't because you'll try to explain it all away or some such.

If God wanted us to believe he is sovereign the way Calvinists define it, the scriptures would say it and I would believe it. It is that simple. You are making things up and presenting them to us that doesn't even make sense.

 

[travelah]

If God wanted us to believe he is sovereign the way Calvinists define it, the scriptures would say it and I would believe it. It is that simple. You are making things up and presenting them to us that doesn't even make sense.

I didn't say anything about how Calvinists define sovereignty.

 

[TomFL]

If God wanted us to believe he is sovereign the way Calvinists define it, the scriptures would say it and I would believe it. It is that simple. You are making things up and presenting them to us that doesn't even make sense.

A nice simple statement like I am the Lord and I meticulously determine all things

 

[JDS]

I didn't say anything about how Calvinists define sovereignty.

Well, I am on the Calvinist/Arminian forum and thought it was at least the context of the discussions here. If it is not, then I apologize to you for bringing it up in that context. The Calvinist idea of sovereignty is unlike any other religious group in Christendom, I think. Is yours different?

 

[JDS]

A nice simple statement like I am the Lord and I meticulously determine all things

Yes, like that.

 

[travelah]

Well, I am on the Calvinist/Arminian forum and thought it was at least the context of the discussions here. If it is not, then I apologize to you for bringing it up in that context. The Calvinist idea of sovereignty is unlike any other religious group in Christendom, I think. Is yours different?

I am a classical or reformed Arminian. Calvinists misuse sovereignty although we both have similar definitions.

 

[TomFL]

Yes, like that.

Yet no such statement appears

 

[Chalcedon]

I am a classical or reformed Arminian. Calvinists misuse sovereignty although we both have similar definitions.

And the end result remains the same even though our definitions are slightly different.

 

[travelah]

Yet no such statement appears

You would argue against God's providence in all things?

 

[JDS]

Yet no such statement appears

This is true.

 

[travelah]

And the end result remains the same even though our definitions are slightly different.

As it regards sovereignty, yes although not in the sense that shouting 'Sovereignty!' lends credibility to every argument made.

 

[JDS]

You would argue against God's providence in all things?

Everything but the lake of fire. Souls who go there are completely forsaken and forgotten by God because God is forsaken by them first.

 

[TomFL]

You would argue against God's providence in all things?

No I argue God does not causally determine all things

Many things he permits

 

[travelah]

No I argue God does not causally determine all things

Many things he permits

Agreed ... yet even things permissible fall under Providence.

 

[travelah]

Everything but the lake of fire. Souls who go there are completely forsaken and forgotten by God because God is forsaken by them first.

?? God has certainly ordained the things of eternal damnation. Forgotten by God?

 

[TomFL]

Agreed ... yet even things permissible fall under Providence.

Providence yes determination no

 

[travelah]

Providence yes determination no

Agreed... universal determination is poor doctrine.

 

[TomFL]

Agreed... universal determination is poor doctrine.

Great

 

[JDS]

?? God has certainly ordained the things of eternal damnation. Forgotten by God?

Sovereignty and providence are two different things.

Yes, forgotten of God. The soul who is cast into the lake of fire is put into a place where the omnipresent God has chosen not to be. I know that because there is no light there, and men gnaw there tongues for the pain of the outer darkness. There is no water there. There is no peace there.

Matthew 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Everything that happened to Jesus Christ on the cross will happen to those in that awful place. God forsook him while sin was poured out upon him. He bore the payment for our sins. He was separated from God on that cross. The Spirit departed and God turned his back on him. It did suffer no less than sinners will. Our salvation came at an awful price and our Lord Jesus Christ should be exalted and praised for what he did for us.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead (separated) to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.