God's Sovereignty

5wize

Well-known member
Actually he is.

He's using language we understand to describe ideas that are beyond our understanding.

He even told the disciples that kings and prophets had longed to hear the things they were hearing, but could not.

So, things that even the disciples were having a problem with, those who came before them had an even greater problem with understanding.

Jesus said that the day would come when God's Spirit would indwell us, and teach us everything we need to know in order to make it to heaven. At which point, everything that happened, God would explain to us.

1 Corinthians 13:12

1Co 13:12 WEB For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.

According to Hebrews 4:13, we're stark naked before God. So, God will make known to us, everything we need to know, and then he will spend our eternity showing us the rest.
What do we do for eternity? I think I would rather rest.

Language that doesn't project the ideas of God in His own creation is a incongruence and more proof that the Christian message is not reflecting God's reality.
 
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treeplanter

Well-known member
I'm glad I'm not in your universe.
You'd have assassinated me decades ago.
You can't even handle a few years, and you're running off at the mouth about how cowardly I am.

No. I'm grateful that I'm in YHVH's domain. He's a far more gracious, generous, compassionate, just and righteous God than you could ever be.
You are a liar, Steve!

I don't kill people that disagree with me - it's God that does that!

I'm the one who says that it is evil and immoral to kill people for the 'crime' of disagreement, remember?
That is precisely why I say that God is a thug who is utterly unworthy of devotion
 

SteveB

Well-known member
What do we do for eternity? I think I would rather rest.
There will be a rest.
But we'll also create an entirely new and different civilization, upon which we can explore beyond our wildest imagination.
It'll be a civilization that is established on righteousness and justice.

We read in Isaiah chapter 32, the fruit of righteousness is peace.
In psalms, we read that the foundation of the throne of God is righteousness and justice.
In Peter's letter, we read that we will dwell in a world where there is only righteousness.

Throughout the new testament, we read that the life of a Jesus follower, after the final resurrection we will no longer be burdened by sin, and its consequences.
Fully freed from all sin.

We will live in a paradise designed explicitly with our humanity in mind.

One passage says that we will reign with Jesus. Another says that we will be a Kingdom of priests to God.

In Ephesians, we read that God will take an eternity unraveling his plan and purposes to us.

In Revelation 22, we read that God will dwell among us.

There is a beauty that is described which takes our breath away and we get to enjoy it for all eternity.

Language that doesn't project the ideas of God in His own creation is a incongruence and more proof that the Christian message is not reflecting God's reality.
Being beyond our ability to understand doesn't mean that the language doesn't exist. It means that you are presently unacquainted with it.

It's all contained in the bible, and affirmed by God's Spirit.

Jesus repeatedly used the phrase,

The Kingdom of God is like....
The Kingdom of Heaven is like......

So, read the gospels.
 

5wize

Well-known member
There will be a rest.
But we'll also create an entirely new and different civilization, upon which we can explore beyond our wildest imagination.
It'll be a civilization that is established on righteousness and justice.
Why did that can get kicked down the road to a kingdom none of us can see or experience or test these premises on?
We read in Isaiah chapter 32, the fruit of righteousness is peace.
In psalms, we read that the foundation of the throne of God is righteousness and justice.
In Peter's letter, we read that we will dwell in a world where there is only righteousness.

Throughout the new testament, we read that the life of a Jesus follower, after the final resurrection we will no longer be burdened by sin, and its consequences.
Fully freed from all sin.

We will live in a paradise designed explicitly with our humanity in mind.

One passage says that we will reign with Jesus. Another says that we will be a Kingdom of priests to God.
For what purpose? Why do those accounts differ? Do you see the problem that the ancient Hebrews created when the world did not comport to their false sense of themselves as a chosen by God? In order to compensate for the error, instead of re-thinking their place in the world, they simply created a different one where they could continue the delusion safely tucked away from earthly veracity. Convenient don't you think?
In Ephesians, we read that God will take an eternity unraveling his plan and purposes to us.

In Revelation 22, we read that God will dwell among us.

There is a beauty that is described which takes our breath away and we get to enjoy it for all eternity.


Being beyond our ability to understand doesn't mean that the language doesn't exist. It means that you are presently unacquainted with it.

It's all contained in the bible, and affirmed by God's Spirit.

Jesus repeatedly used the phrase,

The Kingdom of God is like....
The Kingdom of Heaven is like......

So, read the gospels.
Read em plenty and am re-reading them now. Noticing how wrong most of what Paul said actually is. Paul did not get Jesus at all. It's as if he had his own Jesus-free church building agenda and just used Jesus's name like a bank puts their name on a ballpark.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
And when I die, and you no longer have to engage me to justify your hate and ignorance.....
God will still be in control.
Jam tomorrow! The promise of every false religion through the ages.

Sure, God has given this child cancer, but at some unspecified time in the future in a way we can never verify, God will sort it all out.

Heaven forbid God should do something today to cure the cancer.

What you're not aware of, is what God does do for the child.
So are you saying we should rejoice when God gives a child cancer? Seriously?

Not sure if you actually care, but there is another perspective. One which is far more accurate.
Let us see what pearls of wisdom this Christian has to offer:

In this post I’ll offer steps to find peace during the pandemic.
Look Away

So the perspective you advocate for dealing with childhood cancer is to look away? Wow.

You know what? This explains a lot of how Christians rationalise the horrors they see in the world with an all loving God. They just "look away". Pretend it is not so.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
In short, sovereignty means in complete charge, while allowing others the freedom to live as they please. God, as sovereign, using the choices we make, accomplishes everything he seeks to accomplish, as outlined in the bible.
The Free Will argument fails. No one used their 'free will' to get cancer or Covid. No one used their 'free will' to have a child ripped from their arms in a flood. No one chooses to starve to death with 'free will'.

God is omnipotent or is he not - using the word 'sovereign' does not mask this. And if God is omnipotent then he chooses to give people cancer and Covid. He chooses to watch floods rip babies from their mother's arms. He chooses to make the crops fail and watch people starve.

I may have 'free will' but the consequences of my choices are entirely God's. If God chooses to burn me in a lake of fire forever that is not my free will - that is God's choice of an appropriate punishment for me using my free will.

Its all on God and you cannot wish that away with 'sovereignty.'
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Why did that can get kicked down the road to a kingdom none of us can see or experience or test these premises on?
God said he'll give us a heart to know him. Jer. 24:7.
Jesus said that we can know for ourselves whether he's talking for God, or on his own authority, by doing what he said.
He further said that God will come make his home with us, if we keep his teachings.
By doing what Jesus said, we will be introduced into God's Kingdom, and know far more than any other way.

For what purpose? Why do those accounts differ? Do you see the problem that the ancient Hebrews created when the world did not comport to their false sense of themselves as a chosen by God? In order to compensate for the error, instead of re-thinking their place in the world, they simply created a different one where they could continue the delusion safely tucked away from earthly veracity. Convenient don't you think?

You're entitled to believe whatever you want. History documents a very different picture than the one which you find convenient.
I think a question you're going to need to answer is--- if they're self-described favorites of God, why, in a world opposed to God, is this tiny little nation still in existence? How did a people, survive 1835 years in exile, and then return to the land of their ancestors, while Muslims, who number over 1.2 billion, surround them, and haven't been able to annihilate them?
Have you ever actually looked at a map of the middle east?
You should. Look at the difference between the size/scale of Israel, and the rest of the ISlamic world. And yet, Israel is a thriving, prominent democratic society, in the middle of a world of terrorism, hated by all their neighbors. And for the first time in history, Israel now has peace treaties with numerous enemy nations. Something the bible actually talks about.


Read em plenty and am re-reading them now. Noticing how wrong most of what Paul said actually is. Paul did not get Jesus at all. It's as if he had his own Jesus-free church building agenda and just used Jesus's name like a bank puts their name on a ballpark.
Curious..... how many times have you read through them?
Because I've been reading the bible for 43+ years now, and have read through it, at least a dozen, plus times, and it's pretty clear to me that Paul "got" Jesus perfectly.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The Free Will argument fails. No one used their 'free will' to get cancer or Covid. No one used their 'free will' to have a child ripped from their arms in a flood. No one chooses to starve to death with 'free will'.
You abdicated your free will when you sinned the first time, and continued to sin.
Covid is man's fault. The first 3-4 months of Covid, all I heard in the news is that it was created by Chinese scientists, in a lab in Wuhan China. There have been plenty of conspiracies about it ever since. One of which that ran the circuit was that the Democrats paid for it, to destroy Trump's economic growth, so they could capture the presidency.
So, if you're looking to blame someone, blame Biden, and his cohorts. The democrats were so desperate to ruin trump, they destroyed the country in the process. I recall when Bill Maher said he'd be willing to destroy the economy to ruin Trump. Well, apparently he was heard.


God is omnipotent or is he not - using the word 'sovereign' does not mask this. And if God is omnipotent then he chooses to give people cancer and Covid. He chooses to watch floods rip babies from their mother's arms. He chooses to make the crops fail and watch people starve.

I may have 'free will' but the consequences of my choices are entirely God's. If God chooses to burn me in a lake of fire forever that is not my free will - that is God's choice of an appropriate punishment for me using my free will.

Its all on God and you cannot wish that away with 'sovereignty.'
Have fun with that.
It seem to me that you think sovereign means dictator, who places everything, and everyone under his thumb.

I've got news for you--- Sovereign is not dictator. Not in God's Kingdom. It strikes me that your idea is a small-minded idea, limited to your own opinions, and beliefs.

God's Sovereignty can handle everything, and bring it into line with his long-game goal.

That includes you choosing your own damnation, by refusing Jesus.
And you'll have done so all by your own choices, without anyone forcing you.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
You abdicated your free will when you sinned the first time, and continued to sin.
Covid is man's fault. The first 3-4 months of Covid, all I heard in the news is that it was created by Chinese scientists, in a lab in Wuhan China. There have been plenty of conspiracies about it ever since. One of which that ran the circuit was that the Democrats paid for it, to destroy Trump's economic growth, so they could capture the presidency.
So, if you're looking to blame someone, blame Biden, and his cohorts. The democrats were so desperate to ruin trump, they destroyed the country in the process. I recall when Bill Maher said he'd be willing to destroy the economy to ruin Trump. Well, apparently he was heard.
Do you seriously think "Biden, and his cohorts" are to blame for COVID?

That sounds seriously paranoid and delusional, Steve. Do you have any evidence for this claim?
 

5wize

Well-known member
God said he'll give us a heart to know him. Jer. 24:7.
Jesus said that we can know for ourselves whether he's talking for God, or on his own authority, by doing what he said.
He further said that God will come make his home with us, if we keep his teachings.
By doing what Jesus said, we will be introduced into God's Kingdom, and know far more than any other way.
These are biblical equivocations for why God is hidden. It's the same ideological compensation as a Kingdom to Come to compensate for a world that does not comport to their ideology.
You're entitled to believe whatever you want. History documents a very different picture than the one which you find convenient.
I think a question you're going to need to answer is--- if they're self-described favorites of God, why, in a world opposed to God, is this tiny little nation still in existence? How did a people, survive 1835 years in exile, and then return to the land of their ancestors, while Muslims, who number over 1.2 billion, surround them, and haven't been able to annihilate them?
Have you ever actually looked at a map of the middle east?
You should. Look at the difference between the size/scale of Israel, and the rest of the ISlamic world. And yet, Israel is a thriving, prominent democratic society, in the middle of a world of terrorism, hated by all their neighbors. And for the first time in history, Israel now has peace treaties with numerous enemy nations. Something the bible actually talks about.
That's not a miracle at all. I've studied quite extensively the history of the Levant and the main reason that Israel has survived is that it is not a land based nationalistic ideal. Judaic identity It is an ideological identity that can survive total geographic and cultural dispersement. That's why after the Babylonian exile, many different cultural components came together once again and influenced the many mythologies of the OT and that influence gave you stories of a Jew with an Egyptian name and a flood directly lifted from Babylonian history.
Curious..... how many times have you read through them?
Because I've been reading the bible for 43+ years now, and have read through it, at least a dozen, plus times, and it's pretty clear to me that Paul "got" Jesus perfectly.
I can't count that. Since private middle school... same 43+ years. You don't read for understanding. You read to confirm your bias. You need a Bible commentary written by the better more modern academics. Doesn't matter if you choose Christian based academics, they will tell you Pauline Epistles have great problems with the Jesus of the gospels.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Covid is man's fault.
Nope. God is omnipotent. If God did not want humans to have Covid He could cure it with a thought. Covid is here because God wants it here. There is simply no way out of that if you believe God is all powerful.

Cancer, Covid, Multiple-Sclerosis, Malaria, Ebola, and all of the plagues that cause untold suffering are here because God allows them to be - or God created them.

Chinese scientists are not more powerful than God are they?
The first 3-4 months of Covid, all I heard in the news is that it was created by Chinese scientists, in a lab in Wuhan China. There have been plenty of conspiracies about it ever since. One of which that ran the circuit was that the Democrats paid for it, to destroy Trump's economic growth, so they could capture the presidency.
So, if you're looking to blame someone, blame Biden, and his cohorts. The democrats were so desperate to ruin trump, they destroyed the country in the process. I recall when Bill Maher said he'd be willing to destroy the economy to ruin Trump. Well, apparently he was heard.
Please tell me you do not believe that The Democrats created a virus in a lab and let it loose on the world to stop Trump. That is so mind numbingly insane that it would take you out of any rational debate.
It seem to me that you think sovereign means dictator, who places everything, and everyone under his thumb.
I think omnipotent means omnipotent. If God is all powerful then everything is under his thumb. That's what omnipotent means. And if God is not all powerful then what is more powerful than God?
God's Sovereignty can handle everything, and bring it into line with his long-game goal.
If he is omnipotent then his long game goal involves making billions suffer for centuries. Not a great plan.
That includes you choosing your own damnation, by refusing Jesus. And you'll have done so all by your own choices, without anyone forcing you.
If you could prove any of this is true we could discuss it. Otherwise this is identical to a Muslim telling me I am damned for refusing Mohamad.

You cannot believe in an omnipotent God and then blame anything on man. It is an obvious contradiction and logical error. Either God is in change or not - you cannot have your omnipotence and blame Covid on the Chinese - you gotta pick one :)
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Nope. God is omnipotent. If God did not want humans to have Covid He could cure it with a thought. Covid is here because God wants it here. There is simply no way out of that if you believe God is all powerful.

Cancer, Covid, Multiple-Sclerosis, Malaria, Ebola, and all of the plagues that cause untold suffering are here because God allows them to be - or God created them.

Chinese scientists are not more powerful than God are they?

Please tell me you do not believe that The Democrats created a virus in a lab and let it loose on the world to stop Trump. That is so mind numbingly insane that it would take you out of any rational debate.

I think omnipotent means omnipotent. If God is all powerful then everything is under his thumb. That's what omnipotent means. And if God is not all powerful then what is more powerful than God?

If he is omnipotent then his long game goal involves making billions suffer for centuries. Not a great plan.

If you could prove any of this is true we could discuss it. Otherwise this is identical to a Muslim telling me I am damned for refusing Mohamad.

You cannot believe in an omnipotent God and then blame anything on man. It is an obvious contradiction and logical error. Either God is in change or not - you cannot have your omnipotence and blame Covid on the Chinese - you gotta pick one :)


You ain't seen nothing yet. God is not only in charge of Covid, but also in charge of all the pestilence mentioned in Revelation.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Ah, nice to see a Christian wishing death, destruction, and suffering on others.
It's odd, but though it is quite normal here, in the real world with normal people, some of whom are Christian, it virtually never happens. And when it does, the offender gets blasted by a gale of hilarity. Perhaps they flock to places like this as a refuge from normality.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Ah, nice to see a Christian wishing death, destruction, and suffering on others.
Hallucinating wishes now?
What hallucination? Christianity is an apocalyptic religion that awaits the end times that many Christians actually long for. The reuniting with their precious Jesus with God in heaven. Your just a vessel of it Stiggy whether you directly quote it, long for it, or not.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Why did you?
Taken from the library of ridiculous moves learned from stiggy wiggy... Let's see where is that one, second shelf, about the middle.... here it is....

"Show me where I wished that and after your miserable failure to do that...." (insert issue at hand here)... "you tell me what being a member of an apocalyptic religion actually means to it's participants"
 
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