Gog-Magog: Pre or Post Millennial

Truth7t7

Active member
They lived and reigned after a first resurrection, that is a physical, incorruptible, and permanent body was given to these souls.
There Will Be One Future Resurrection Of "All" On The Last Day

(First Resurrection) Eternal Life

(Second Resurrection) Eternal Damnation

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
;they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Timtofly

Member
There Will Be One Future Resurrection Of "All" On The Last Day

(First Resurrection) Eternal Life

(Second Resurrection) Eternal Damnation

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
;they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
And you just denied the Resurrection of Revelation 20:4

Why deny there is a physical resurrection for those beheaded during Satan's 42 months who will live on earth for 1000 years, like God says in Revelation 20?

You deny that the Cross was the Last Day Resurrection. Jesus gave those words prior to dying on the Cross and the Last Day Resurrection for those in Abraham's bosom. The Cross was their last day in death.

They and the whole NT church are now in Paradise in physical incorruptible bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:1-9

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

We are either in sheol or in our permanent incorruptible body in Paradise. There is no middle ground resting place of the soul.

If you claim they are dead souls, you deny the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are alive in Christ and after this temporal bodies dies, we are no longer dead, but alive in Christ just like Christ is alive in Paradise.

This life is the only death those in Christ experience. This physical body is a dead body. It is given to the soul at birth with Adam's dead, sinful flesh and blood.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
And you just denied the Resurrection of Revelation 20:4

Why deny there is a physical resurrection for those beheaded during Satan's 42 months who will live on earth for 1000 years, like God says in Revelation 20?

You deny that the Cross was the Last Day Resurrection. Jesus gave those words prior to dying on the Cross and the Last Day Resurrection for those in Abraham's bosom. The Cross was their last day in death.

They and the whole NT church are now in Paradise in physical incorruptible bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:1-9

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

We are either in sheol or in our permanent incorruptible body in Paradise. There is no middle ground resting place of the soul.

If you claim they are dead souls, you deny the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are alive in Christ and after this temporal bodies dies, we are no longer dead, but alive in Christ just like Christ is alive in Paradise.

This life is the only death those in Christ experience. This physical body is a dead body. It is given to the soul at birth with Adam's dead, sinful flesh and blood.
We Will "Strongly Disagree" :)

1.) The Cross wasnt (The Last Day) resurrection, it will be a future event at the last trump, second coming, end of this world in final judgement.

2.) The beheaded tribulation saints will be resurrected at the future resurrection of "All" at the second coming and final judgement on the last day John 12:48, immediately after the tribulation, when the books are opened Dan 12:1-2, Rev 20:11-15

3.) The old testament saints and church are not in physical incorruptible bodies as you claim, they are waiting upon the last trump 1 Cor 15:52-54, at the last day resurrection of all, at the time of Final judgement, when the book of life is opened Daniel 12:1-2, John 5:28-29 same event.

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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JDS

Well-known member
The AOD thread has somewhat devolved into a debate on the timing of Ezekiel 38-39. It certainly deserves its own thread, which I am now posting. It is a very complicated prophecy, which makes it difficult to have a thorough discussion of all the elements involved in a forum such as this. That said I hope that something fruitful will emerge from the interactions!

I will restate my position on the subject to get things started. It is my assertion that Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20 are describing the same event, which occurs immediately after the one thousand year Millennial Kingdom. The Day of Christ, which includes the rapture, the Great Tribulation, and the Second Coming, results in the destruction of the Man of Sin. I further assert that the Day of the LORD IS Gog-Magog and it results in the destruction of Satan. I interpret the book of Joel to be primarily a description of Gog-Magog from the Lord’s perspective of Israel at the end of the MK and Ezekiel 38-39 to be a description of the Lord’s perspective of Satan after his release from the abyss at the end of the MK. It is my assertion that any attempt to make Ezekiel 38-39 a premillennial event requires extreme manipulation of the text of Ezekiel to make it even remotely plausible and it ignores a multitude of timing indicators that plainly describe a millennial setting. I personally think that the only logical way to approach it would be to take it almost verse by verse, which is how I researched it over a period of many months a few years ago.

Anyway, it’s getting late and I will have more to say tomorrow.
Arkycharlie, I have just scanned through some of the comments and I can appreciate your desire to put things together. Ezekiel is not an easy prophet to understand but most of his prophecies seem to concern the nations that originated from the firstborn son of Noah, Japheth. I am not an expert on prophecy but I am interested in end time events. All but one of the sons of Japheth is mentioned in this prophecy if I remember my study clearly. This is one of the things that has led me to think we could be getting a good deal of information of the time after the millennium when Satan is loosed for a little season. Most of these nations have not had a prominent role in bible prophecy til this time.

Genesis 10:2

The sons of Japheth;
Gomer, and Eze 38:6
Magog, and (Gog is his land) - Eze 38:2 - 39;6
Madai, and
Javan, and Isaiah 66:19- Ezekiel 27:13 - Ezekiel 27:19
Tubal, and Ezekiel 27:13 - Ezekiel 32:26 - Ezekiel 38:2-3 - Ezekiel 39:1
Meshech, and - Ezekiel 27:13 - 32:26 - 38-2-3 - 39:1
Tiras.

As you can see these peoples show up in Ezekiel but nowhere else prophetically. It might mean something and it might not. I know Daniel prophesied from his time all during the times of the gentiles and he was contemporary with Ezekiel.

The one problem with some of these nations going into the millennial kingdom is the judgement of the nations in Matt 25 just after the great tribulation. The basis for them entering in is how they treated the Jews during that time.

Well, I am rambling somewhat. Do you have any thoughts on anything I have said?
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
Arkycharlie, I have just scanned through some of the comments and I can appreciate your desire to put things together. Ezekiel is not an easy prophet to understand but most of his prophecies seem to concern the nations that originated from the firstborn son of Noah, Japheth. I am not an expert on prophecy but I am interested in end time events. All but one of the sons of Japheth is mentioned in this prophecy if I remember my study clearly. This is one of the things that has led me to think we could be getting a good deal of information of the time after the millennium when Satan is loosed for a little season. Most of these nations have not had a prominent role in bible prophecy til this time.

Genesis 10:2

The sons of Japheth;
Gomer, and Eze 38:6
Magog, and (Gog is his land) - Eze 38:2 - 39;6
Madai, and
Javan, and Isaiah 66:19- Ezekiel 27:13 - Ezekiel 27:19
Tubal, and Ezekiel 27:13 - Ezekiel 32:26 - Ezekiel 38:2-3 - Ezekiel 39:1
Meshech, and - Ezekiel 27:13 - 32:26 - 38-2-3 - 39:1
Tiras.

As you can see these peoples show up in Ezekiel but nowhere else prophetically. It might mean something and it might not. I know Daniel prophesied from his time all during the times of the gentiles and he was contemporary with Ezekiel.

The one problem with some of these nations going into the millennial kingdom is the judgement of the nations in Matt 25 just after the great tribulation. The basis for them entering in is how they treated the Jews during that time.

Well, I am rambling somewhat. Do you have any thoughts on anything I have said?
JDS, you've made some interesting observations. It's late and I want to give you a detailed response so it will have to wait until tomorrow. I definitely have some comments to offer. Thanks!
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Arkycharlie, I have just scanned through some of the comments and I can appreciate your desire to put things together. Ezekiel is not an easy prophet to understand but most of his prophecies seem to concern the nations that originated from the firstborn son of Noah, Japheth. I am not an expert on prophecy but I am interested in end time events. All but one of the sons of Japheth is mentioned in this prophecy if I remember my study clearly. This is one of the things that has led me to think we could be getting a good deal of information of the time after the millennium when Satan is loosed for a little season. Most of these nations have not had a prominent role in bible prophecy til this time.

Genesis 10:2

The sons of Japheth;
Gomer, and Eze 38:6
Magog, and (Gog is his land) - Eze 38:2 - 39;6
Madai, and
Javan, and Isaiah 66:19- Ezekiel 27:13 - Ezekiel 27:19
Tubal, and Ezekiel 27:13 - Ezekiel 32:26 - Ezekiel 38:2-3 - Ezekiel 39:1
Meshech, and - Ezekiel 27:13 - 32:26 - 38-2-3 - 39:1
Tiras.

As you can see these peoples show up in Ezekiel but nowhere else prophetically. It might mean something and it might not. I know Daniel prophesied from his time all during the times of the gentiles and he was contemporary with Ezekiel.

The one problem with some of these nations going into the millennial kingdom is the judgement of the nations in Matt 25 just after the great tribulation. The basis for them entering in is how they treated the Jews during that time.

Well, I am rambling somewhat. Do you have any thoughts on anything I have said?
Will You Pretend As If The Scripture Below is Non-Existent? :)

The Fact Is, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving The Heavens And Earth By Fire.

Many desire to see Jesus Christ return, and start a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, many dont want to acknowledge the fire at the Lords Appearance, Revealing, because their Millennial Kingdom on this Earth is (Gone)

The Lord Jesus Christ Appears, Reveals, In (FIRE)

There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)

Nahum 1:5KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Bodies Consumed By The Lords Fire In Final Judgement

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

The Heavens And Earth Are (Dissolved)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 
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Arkycharlie

Active member
JDS, you've made some interesting observations. It's late and I want to give you a detailed response so it will have to wait until tomorrow. I definitely have some comments to offer. Thanks!
OK, I’m back. You wrote: “All but one of the sons of Japheth is mentioned in this prophecy if I remember my study clearly.”

Actually, three of the sons of Japeth are not mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39. They are the three that I’ve highlighted: The sons of Japheth were Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech and Tiras” (Genesis 10:2)

I have maintained for many years that an accurate understanding of eschatology starts with accurate presuppositions. If I presume that Ezekiel’s Gog-Magog prophecy is a premillennial event, then I will tend to gloss over passages that would appear to conflict with that presupposition. And this is rampant among premillennialists these days. There’s also an issue with translators of the OT in our modern English Bibles that can lead students of Scripture astray and that is the issue of whether to translate or transliterate words in the Hebrew text. And the opening verses of Ezekiel 38 are a prime example, as I will illustrate.

Ezekiel 38:
1 The word of the LORD came to me saying: 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal and prophesy against him.​

Look at the Hebrew text of these verses:

Ezk38_1.jpg
Notice first that the sign of the definite article is prefixed to Magog, not land. Magog is a compound word composed of Gog with the letter Mem prefixed. “Mem” is one of four inseparable prepositions and means “from”. So technically, the phrase reads “Gog, land of the “from Gog”.

Likewise, Meshech and Tubal can be translated and their meanings reinforce a postmillennial fulfillment. Meshek means “draw” as in draw a bow or to be drawn. Tubal can be transliterated as a proper name or translated meaning “decadence” but by far the most usage is habitation or simply the earth. Putting it all together, I suggest that an accurate reading of the text is “Gog, land of the from Gog, chief prince of those drawn from the earth. Gog, of course, is a pseudonym for Satan. This correlates with Revelation 20:

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,​

Notice that in the Greek text, it reads “the Gog” and “the Magog”.

Re20_8.png

I will await your reaction to this and see if you have any interest in proceeding further with the study.
 

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JDS

Well-known member
OK, I’m back.
As I said I am interested in the prophetic word of God but I am not interested in a Hebrew or Greek study more than checking basis words and those things I find helpful. I have an English Bible and the indwelling Holy Spirt as my teacher. He can teach in English with no trouble. There is a method he gives us for that and I find it works great if you have a God approved translation. The words are of extreme importance and you can pick your topic to discuss and you will find that people who take heretical views like, what’s his name, truth7t7, do not believe the words.

I tend to agree with you that a portion of the prophecy of Ezekiel must be dealing post mil.
 

JDS

Well-known member
Will You Pretend As If The Scripture Below is Non-Existent?
You don’t think we who disagree with you are too dumb to pick out a word like “fire” and do a word search and then choose from the results those verses that support a doctrine to develop that we like from that method of handling the word of God, do you?

The fact is there are very few people dumb enough to do that. It seems like you have found your niche.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
You don’t think we who disagree with you are too dumb to pick out a word like “fire” and do a word search and then choose from the results those verses that support a doctrine to develop that we like from that method of handling the word of God, do you?

The fact is there are very few people dumb enough to do that. It seems like you have found your niche.
A Developed Doctrine, Big Smiles! :)

You Deny The Lord's Return In Fire And Final Judgement, Before Your Eyes

The Fact Is, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving The Heavens And Earth By Fire.

Many desire to see Jesus Christ return, and start a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, many dont want to acknowledge the fire at the Lords Appearance, Revealing, because their Millennial Kingdom on this Earth is (Gone)

The Lord Jesus Christ Appears, Reveals, In (FIRE)

There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)

Nahum 1:5KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Bodies Consumed By The Lords Fire In Final Judgement

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

The Heavens And Earth Are (Dissolved)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The AOD thread has somewhat devolved into a debate on the timing of Ezekiel 38-39. It certainly deserves its own thread, which I am now posting. It is a very complicated prophecy, which makes it difficult to have a thorough discussion of all the elements involved in a forum such as this. That said I hope that something fruitful will emerge from the interactions!

I will restate my position on the subject to get things started. It is my assertion that Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20 are describing the same event, which occurs immediately after the one thousand year Millennial Kingdom.

It's possible.
Not so clear as to be without questions.
the circles I operate in say that it's part of the battle of Armageddon, or a battle before it.
I think mostly because all the key players are coming together right now.
Persia, Gomer, Togarmah, Meshech, Tubal, etc.....
According to Josephus, Gomer is Germany, or the Germanic peoples.
Several years ago Germany signed a business treaty with Iran.

Turkey also signed a treaty with Iran a number of years back.

Togarmah is north-eastern Turkey.
Meshech, is from middle Turkey, Tubal are the Georgian peoples. I.e., Russia.
Anyone old enough, knows Persia is Iran.

Iran's ties to Syria, and Russia have long been known.



The Day of Christ, which includes the rapture, the Great Tribulation, and the Second Coming, results in the destruction of the Man of Sin. I further assert that the Day of the LORD IS Gog-Magog and it results in the destruction of Satan. I interpret the book of Joel to be primarily a description of Gog-Magog from the Lord’s perspective of Israel at the end of the MK and Ezekiel 38-39 to be a description of the Lord’s perspective of Satan after his release from the abyss at the end of the MK. It is my assertion that any attempt to make Ezekiel 38-39 a premillennial event requires extreme manipulation of the text of Ezekiel to make it even remotely plausible and it ignores a multitude of timing indicators that plainly describe a millennial setting. I personally think that the only logical way to approach it would be to take it almost verse by verse, which is how I researched it over a period of many months a few years ago.

Anyway, it’s getting late and I will have more to say tomorrow.

Ok.... let's do this....

Are you willing to bet your life on these beliefs?
Jesus said that the day will come as snare to all who dwell on the face of the earth, and that we should pray always that we may be accounted worthy to escape the things coming on the earth, and to stand before the Son of Man. Luke 21.

At the end of Ezek 38, it says that God will be glorified, and the nations will KNOW that He is God.
If this is at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, why would there be any question that YHVH is God?
He's been on the Throne in Jerusalem for 1000 years?

23 Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.” ’

This alone seems to boot your idea of post-millennium war out the door.

Then we have this in 39.

5 You shall fall on the open field; for I have spoken,” says the Lord GOD. 6 “And I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in security in the coastlands. Then they shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. 8 Surely it is coming, and it shall be done,” says the Lord GOD. “This is the day of which I have spoken.

So, it raises a question on your ideas of the timing of the event.
Why would the nations need to know that YHVH is God, AFTER his having been on the Throne, in Jerusalem? It seems to me that they'd just had 1000 years of experiencing, firsthand, YHVH's graciousness, provision, justice and righteousness.


The curious thing about Ezekiel 39 is that there will be a 7 month period of time when people will work to clean up debris from the war.

9 “Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years. 10 They will not take wood from the field nor cut down any from the forests, because they will make fires with the weapons; and they will plunder those who plundered them, and pillage those who pillaged them,” says the Lord GOD.

11 “It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog. 12 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified,” says the Lord GOD. 14 “They will set apart men regularly employed, with the help of a search party, to pass through the land and bury those bodies remaining on the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search. 15 The search party will pass through the land; and when anyone sees a man’s bone, he shall set up a marker by it, till the buriers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. 16 The name of the city will also be Hamonah. Thus they shall cleanse the land.” ’

I find it curious that such an event would take place following the final battle in Revelation 20, and before the Great White Throne Judgment.
I'll be the first to admit that there's no clock assigned to this period, so it seems like it's a really quick event.
The closest idea we have to time here is that Satan is released, and goes around the world to gather the nations to come up against Jerusalem.
The next statement seems that God makes a quick end of them. A really quick end.
That said, he rains fire on them.
there's no talk of hailstones, or animals eating their carcasses.


Furthermore, Israel is restored to the land. It's theirs.

While it is indeed possible that the new heavens and new earth has continental arrangement matching today's arrangement, Jerusalem will be a 1500 mile cube.... that's a seriously huge city.....
Considering that God will have a really humongous number of people inhabiting the new earth, if we had a planet identical to our present planet, the Heavenly City would dwarf the planet, and be comparable to a 1 carat diamond, on a wedding band.
 

Synergy

Active member
The AOD thread has somewhat devolved into a debate on the timing of Ezekiel 38-39. It certainly deserves its own thread, which I am now posting. It is a very complicated prophecy, which makes it difficult to have a thorough discussion of all the elements involved in a forum such as this. That said I hope that something fruitful will emerge from the interactions!

I will restate my position on the subject to get things started. It is my assertion that Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20 are describing the same event, which occurs immediately after the one thousand year Millennial Kingdom. The Day of Christ, which includes the rapture, the Great Tribulation, and the Second Coming, results in the destruction of the Man of Sin. I further assert that the Day of the LORD IS Gog-Magog and it results in the destruction of Satan. I interpret the book of Joel to be primarily a description of Gog-Magog from the Lord’s perspective of Israel at the end of the MK and Ezekiel 38-39 to be a description of the Lord’s perspective of Satan after his release from the abyss at the end of the MK. It is my assertion that any attempt to make Ezekiel 38-39 a premillennial event requires extreme manipulation of the text of Ezekiel to make it even remotely plausible and it ignores a multitude of timing indicators that plainly describe a millennial setting. I personally think that the only logical way to approach it would be to take it almost verse by verse, which is how I researched it over a period of many months a few years ago.

Anyway, it’s getting late and I will have more to say tomorrow.
I believe that Gog-Magog in Ez 38-39 is the King of the North at the "time of the end" (Daniel 11:40), which is at the tail end of the Millennial Age.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
I believe that Gog-Magog in Ez 38-39 is the King of the North at the "time of the end" (Daniel 11:40), which is at the tail end of the Millennial Age.
The battle seen in Ezekiel Chapter 39 was fought long ago in (History), against those that inhabited Israel/Jerusalem during the captivity, when the Israelites returned from their 70 Year Captivity in Babylon to Jerusalem, plain, simple, easy to understand.

1.) The (Wooden) tools of warfare below are clearly explained as (Historical) weapons, Shields, Bucklers, Bows, Arrows, Handstaves, Spears

Ezekiel 39:9KJV

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

2.) Gods word (Clearly) explains below, this was a battle when the Israelites returned to Jerusalem after the 70 year Babylonian Captivity, He Left None There In Babylon, (Simple)

Ezekiel 39:22-29KJV

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.
 

JDS

Well-known member
:

2.) Gods word (Clearly) explains below, this was a battle when the Israelites returned to Jerusalem after the 70 year Babylonian Captivity, He Left None There In Babylon, (Simple)
Does it? It can say whatever a careless unbeliever in the meaning of words wants it to say. Let’s look at what it says.
Ezekiel 39:22-29KJV
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.
Read verse 22 again. Would the reader consider today, March 9, 2021, to be “ forward” from the battle described here as you are presenting it to us? The house of Israel means the family of Israel, the physical seed of Abraham through Jacob. The 12 tribes of Jacob. Ask the next 25 Jews you meet if they know that the person Ezekiel is referencing here is the Lord their God because of this battle. The answer you get should go a long way to affirming your doctrine if it is true.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Going forward from that battle, why not ask some heathen about this battle. Ask the next 25 heathen you meet on the street if they know the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity and trespasses. Let’s just prove that God, if he did say these things is, uh, ...pulling our leg.

On another point, I am pretty sure that the battle you are referencing was with Judah, which is two tribes of Israel, and not the whole house. Ten of the tribes were still in dispersion in other parts of the world at that time, and get this, they still are today.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
This is a “now” verse and he is speaking of the whole house of Israel, if we can believe words,.He is nor speaking of Judah only as in the days of the Babylonian captivity.
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
This is an after” verse and tells us God’s purpose was remedial and not penal. It was out of love for Israel.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
This is a “then” verse indicating his purpose had been accomplished for the whole house of Israel. Now, being honest, being aware of the world around you and having all kinds of tools to research the conditions of Israel and the nations, do you think God is describing anything that has been experienced yet?

He said above, and you highlighted it, that he would gather them to their own land and leave none in the lands of the heathen. Let’s do a math study. What is the numerical equivalent of “none?” Is it 10, or 100, or a million? Are there any Jews in the land of the heathen today?
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.
Is there anything that would even remotely indicate that Israel is in possession of the Spirit of God and is in intimate fellowship with God now today? Definitely the whole house of Israel is not in her land and the ones who are at the present time do not have the Spirit.

My conclusion of your comments. I think you are a poor reader and cannot follow logic and are hateful toward the words of God and you do not believe them and are not shy about saying so.
 
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Truth7t7

Active member
Does it? It can say whatever a careless unbeliever in the meaning of words wants it to say. Let’s look at what it says.

Read verse 22 again. Would the reader consider today, March 9, 2021, to be “ forward” from the battle described here as you are presenting it to us? The house of Israel means the family of Israel, the physical seed of Abraham through Jacob. The 12 tribes of Jacob. Ask the next 25 Jews you meet if they know that the person Ezekiel is referencing here is the Lord their God because of this battle. The answer you get should go a long way to affirming your doctrine if it is true.

Going forward from that battle, why not ask some heathen about this battle. Ask the next 25 heathen you meet on the street if they know the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity and trespasses. Let’s just prove that God, if he did say these things is, uh, ...pulling our leg.

On another point, I am pretty sure that the battle you are referencing was with Judah, which is two tribes of Israel, and not the whole house. Ten of the tribes were still in dispersion in other parts of the world at that time, and get this, they still are today.

This is a “now” verse and he is speaking of the whole house of Israel, if we can believe words,.He is nor speaking of Judah only as in the days of the Babylonian captivity.

This is an after” verse and tells us God’s purpose was remedial and not penal. It was out of love for Israel.

This is a “then” verse indicating his purpose had been accomplished for the whole house of Israel. Now, being honest, being aware of the world around you and having all kinds of tools to research the conditions of Israel and the nations, do you think God is describing anything that has been experienced yet?

He said above, and you highlighted it, that he would gather them to their own land and leave none in the lands of the heathen. Let’s do a math study. What is the numerical equivalent of “none?” Is it 10, or 100, or a million? Are there any Jews in the land of the heathen today?

Is there anything that would even remotely indicate that Israel is in possession of the Spirit of God and is in intimate fellowship with God now today? Definitely the whole house of Israel is not in her land and the ones who are at the present time do not have the Spirit.

My conclusion of your comments. I think you are a poor reader and cannot follow logic and are hateful toward the words of God and you do not believe them and are not shy about saying so.
You forgot those modern tools of warfare that will burn for 7 years, M-16, Kevlar Vests, Hum-vs, Drones,Tanks?

Pretty easy to forget, when it destroys your belief that it's a future war
:)

The battle seen in Ezekiel Chapter 39 was fought long ago in (History), against those that inhabited Israel/Jerusalem during the captivity, when the Israelites returned from their 70 Year Captivity in Babylon to Jerusalem, plain, simple, easy to understand.

1.) The (Wooden) tools of warfare below are clearly explained as (Historical) weapons, Shields, Bucklers, Bows, Arrows, Handstaves, Spears

Ezekiel 39:9KJV

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Does it? It can say whatever a careless unbeliever in the meaning of words wants it to say. Let’s look at what it says.

Read verse 22 again. Would the reader consider today, March 9, 2021, to be “ forward” from the battle described here as you are presenting it to us? The house of Israel means the family of Israel, the physical seed of Abraham through Jacob. The 12 tribes of Jacob. Ask the next 25 Jews you meet if they know that the person Ezekiel is referencing here is the Lord their God because of this battle. The answer you get should go a long way to affirming your doctrine if it is true.

Going forward from that battle, why not ask some heathen about this battle. Ask the next 25 heathen you meet on the street if they know the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity and trespasses. Let’s just prove that God, if he did say these things is, uh, ...pulling our leg.

On another point, I am pretty sure that the battle you are referencing was with Judah, which is two tribes of Israel, and not the whole house. Ten of the tribes were still in dispersion in other parts of the world at that time, and get this, they still are today.

This is a “now” verse and he is speaking of the whole house of Israel, if we can believe words,.He is nor speaking of Judah only as in the days of the Babylonian captivity.

This is an after” verse and tells us God’s purpose was remedial and not penal. It was out of love for Israel.

This is a “then” verse indicating his purpose had been accomplished for the whole house of Israel. Now, being honest, being aware of the world around you and having all kinds of tools to research the conditions of Israel and the nations, do you think God is describing anything that has been experienced yet?

He said above, and you highlighted it, that he would gather them to their own land and leave none in the lands of the heathen. Let’s do a math study. What is the numerical equivalent of “none?” Is it 10, or 100, or a million? Are there any Jews in the land of the heathen today?

Is there anything that would even remotely indicate that Israel is in possession of the Spirit of God and is in intimate fellowship with God now today? Definitely the whole house of Israel is not in her land and the ones who are at the present time do not have the Spirit.

My conclusion of your comments. I think you are a poor reader and cannot follow logic and are hateful toward the words of God and you do not believe them and are not shy about saying so.
Those in the cities of Israel wont need wood from the fields or forest, they will burn weapons of war for seven years?

A Future Event, For All Those Wood Burning Stoves In Israel? :)

Ezekiel 39:9-10KJV
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
 

JDS

Well-known member
You forgot those modern tools of warfare that will burn for 7 years, M-16, Kevlar Vests, Hum-vs, Drones,Tanks?

Pretty easy to forget, when it destroys your belief that it's a future war
:)
I am sorry but I read the whole text and nothing was said about M-16, Kevlar Vests, Hum-Vs, Drones, Tanks. You made that up. The words in the text says God will set on fire and burn the weapons. Then he names them. He says both the shield and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the handstaves, and the Spears. Can you give me a reason I cannot believe those words other than your declaring that they cannot be true.
The difference between you and me is that I can and do believe the very words and you do not. You say you don’t and I believe you about that.

You have superimposed your own experience, time frame of your life, and your own impressions about the God of this Bible onto the text and decided from that standpoint the words are not believable. Since these weapons are in your experience you suppose they must always be here and you cannot envision a future time without them. This is not the way to approach the scriptures. The way to approach the scriptures is
TO BELIEVE THE WORDS!

The battle seen in Ezekiel Chapter 39 was fought long ago in (History), against those that inhabited Israel/Jerusalem during the captivity, when the Israelites returned from their 70 Year Captivity in Babylon to Jerusalem, plain, simple, easy to understand.
I have read Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, post exile prophets, all these lived after Judah returned to her land. They don't say anything about a battle like you are describing. Can you tell us more about that?
1.) The (Wooden) tools of warfare below are clearly explained as (Historical) weapons, Shields, Bucklers, Bows, Arrows, Handstaves, Spears

They are not. They are described as weapons of war that are used after God has chastened Israel and brought her back to her land. You quoted the following verse yourself. Here it is again. Read it.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Do you remember quoting that verse? It has meaning but it has not happened yet. This is March 2021. The prophecy has not come to pass yet. But it will and it will be exactly as the words say it in this prophecy.
Ezekiel 39:9KJV
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years.

Quote me a passage from those books of the scriptures that affirms that was fulfilled when you say it was. When were those 7 years in the historical past? Let a couple of those satellites fall out of the heaven by which all those modern tech weapons get their orders and see what kind of weapons you can use. I am not saying that is the reason for these crude weapons made and operated by hand, the text does not tell me that, but logic says it is a possibility.

No matter, how it happens. It is what God says is in the future after he has gathered the whole house of Israel into their land, with none left in the countries of their enemies. If you do not believe it then your controversy is with God and his prophet.
 

JDS

Well-known member
Those in the cities of Israel wont need wood from the fields or forest, they will burn weapons of war for seven years?

A Future Event, For All Those Wood Burning Stoves In Israel? :)

Ezekiel 39:9-10KJV
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
The text does not say they burn the weapons for firewood, but I suppose they could. The text seems to support your theory though. It is the only time your commentary has come close to agreeing with the text and made any sense. Congratulations. You are on a roll. See how logic works?
 

Truth7t7

Active member
I am sorry but I read the whole text and nothing was said about M-16, Kevlar Vests, Hum-Vs, Drones, Tanks. You made that up. The words in the text says God will set on fire and burn the weapons.
Your claim that the text stated God will burn the weapons is (Dishonest)

The scripture clearly states (They That Dwell In The Cities) shall set on fire and burn the weapons

They shall burn them with fire (Seven Years) and wont have need for wood from the forest.

Yes the weapons of warfare are (Historical) a war fought long ago, Shields, Bucklers, Bows, Arrows, Handstaves, Spears.

Ezekiel 39:9-10KJV
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons,
both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
 
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