Going to Hell in a nutshell

[Gus Bovona]

There always remains love, even for the worst of us. For instance I do still love the murderer, have no desire to see them harmed or even go to hell. The law is the law though, if you break it, it breaks you.

Man has a basic dignity and respect, it comes from love, the love of God specifically. One reason is that for us humans you are just one step away from being that guy everyone hates.

So, it doesn't matter what human it is. One you fear, one you hate, the Lord requires man to love his fellow man.

I imagine all kinds of men desiring revenge, desiring justice, desiring a reconning, I give them no room to not love. Understand?

I think all that adds up to, "Yes, you can love someone that you fear."

You peppering me with endless socratic questions just won't do.

When you feel like the questions are endless, why don't you just bow out of the conversation? What else are we doing here if not asking and answering questions?

 

[Furion]

I think all that adds up to, "Yes, you can love someone that you fear."

No. You are commanded to love all men, period.

Are you having trouble understanding?

When you feel like the questions are endless, why don't you just bow out of the conversation? What else are we doing here if not asking and answering questions?

You can act like what you do is innocent, sure. Ever learning and never perceiving is an atheist pastime.

 

[Caroljeen]

Caroljeen... We experience this world just like you do externally. We don’t hear the call. We don’t see what or who to seek or move to. We don’t see anybody or anything holding their hand out. We don’t hear the quiet voice. We could just pretend and start moving towards what you describe, but we can do that in the context of any religion and make it our internal reality. They will all resonate to their own degree because they are all human religions created to reflect positive human truths. As a result, we decided to just move towards the positive human truths. Accept realities extended hand... listen to humanity’s voice.

And that is your choice to make.

 

[Caroljeen]

I believe Paul had an internal experience. They can lead to physical manifestations... the placebo effect. I don’t believe in any of the external testimonies. They conflict and lead me to believe they were fabricated to claim witness to an external experience. Yes... I think there is a lie in the Bible.

This doesn't surprise me.

The rules of subjectivity and objectivity and how they are verified are not my rules.

I agree. A external supernatural experience is objective to those who witness it, like the death and resurrection of Jesus or the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2.

But can you answer - I can move towards Islam’s call and make it my internal reality and tell you that I found an external reality waiting for me in it (many obviously have)... Would you believe me.?... would I be able to convince you to move to my claimed external reality like you are pointing me to yours?

What do you mean by an external reality? If that external reality is Jesus, you would

 

[Caroljeen]

Not with me it didn't. I was at the end of my rope and didn't believe in God at all. All my prayers of desperation started with "God, if you exist ........"

Ditto...

 

[Furion]

And another ditto...

 

[Gus Bovona]

No. You are commanded to love all men, period.

Are you having trouble understanding?

Indicate which statement you agree with:

One can truly love whom one fears.
One can't truly love whom one fears.

 

[5wize]

I agree. A external supernatural experience is objective to those who witness it, like the death and resurrection of Jesus or the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2.

Fledgling religions and political dynasties of those times are prone to escalating exaggerations.

What do you mean by an external reality?

Something nobody on earth can deny once led to it.

If that external reality is Jesus, you would

That’s not what those that are led to Islam say.

 

[5wize]

And that is your choice to make.

But God was no longer the other side of that choice once we experienced such silence and neglect. The 2 choices we then faced were either living as though this life mattered to us or deciding nothing in this life mattered to us.

 

[Caroljeen]

So if you got an email from a Nigerian Prince....

It instantly gets deleted.
The IT department where I work sends us fake emails to help us recognize possible attempts to gain access to our database. I haven't been tricked by one for quite awhile.

 

[Caroljeen]

The "things that happened" (assuming they did happen) would be the external reality, not Jesus' being the cause of them.

"My grandfather's spirit told me the move that won me the game."

Winning the game? External.
The grandfather's spirit relating the winning move? Not external.

Acts 9: 3 Now as he was going along and approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. EXTERNAL
4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” EXTERNAL
5 He asked, “Who are you, Lord?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But get up and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one. EXTERNAL
8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; EXTERNAL
so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.

 

[Caroljeen]

It instantly gets deleted. I'm not that gullible.
The IT department where I work sends us fake emails to help us recognize possible attempts to gain access to our database. I haven't been tricked by one for quite awhile.

 

[SteveB]

Not every Christian believes in conscious eternal torment. @treeplanter

the short version:

greg boyd reknew - Google Search

the long version:
https://whchurch.org/sermon/going-to-hell-in-a-nutshell/

Several months ago I ran across a video that simply described the problem.

#HappySunday ?? #Repost @therealchilli ・・・ Hallelujah ?? JESUS is worthy of our praise FOREVER!!! HAPPY SUNDAY YALL ?? #AWord #JesusIsTheOnlyWay #LifeBoat | Tia Patricia | Tia Patricia · Original audio

994 views, 17 likes, 0 comments, 9 shares, Facebook Reels from Tia Patricia: #HappySunday ?? #Repost @therealchilli ・・・ Hallelujah ?? JESUS is worthy of our praise FOREVER!!! HAPPY SUNDAY YALL ??...

www.facebook.com

 

[The Pixie]

It instantly gets deleted.
The IT department where I work sends us fake emails to help us recognize possible attempts to gain access to our database. I haven't been tricked by one for quite awhile.

Good to hear it!

But compare to what you are advising others to do:

Maybe try looking at it like this: Someone is giving you something. Holding out his hand to give you something and instead of taking it, you look at it, analyze it, rationalize it, scrutinize it, and resist his gentle request for you to take it. It's a gift. It's free. He is right in front of you and you refuse the quiet voice of love. Why? Because he didn't package it for you the way you wanted it?​

You are advocating that we blindly believe that e-mail. We should just accept the email for what it is, without looking at it, without analysing.

 

[Caroljeen]

Fledgling religions and political dynasties of those times are prone to escalating exaggerations.

Christianity wasn't a fledgling religion. It wasn't even an offshoot of Judaism. It was the culmination of Judaism in part.
You will have to point the escalating exaggerations of the Christian religion at the time you are speaking of. Politicians are known to exaggerate and outright lie, I don't care about them in this discussion.

Something nobody on earth can deny once led to it.

You're being too vague. I don't know how to respond to that.

That’s not what those that are led to Islam say.

Again, this is a vague answer to what I said to you. What is your point?

 

[Caroljeen]

Good to hear it!

But compare to what you are advising others to do:

Maybe try looking at it like this: Someone is giving you something. Holding out his hand to give you something and instead of taking it, you look at it, analyze it, rationalize it, scrutinize it, and resist his gentle request for you to take it. It's a gift. It's free. He is right in front of you and you refuse the quiet voice of love. Why? Because he didn't package it for you the way you wanted it?​

You are advocating that we blindly believe that e-mail. We should just accept the email for what it is, without looking at it, without analysing.

The Nigerian email is asking for your money in some fashion. That is not what God is proposing through the gospel.

You already know what God is proposing through Christ. There is no hidden agenda trying to rip you off. I'm not even telling you to believe it blindly.

In my case, I didn't believe God existed, but I found myself in a place that I needed help and there was no one I could go to so I prayed. "God, if you exist, ...", and he answered my prayer. Little unexpected things began to happen after that which were not natural. I began to think that perhaps God does exist. It was months before I became a Christian from that first prayer.

The important point is reaching out to God that initiates a move by God to you that is more than just persuasive or drawing you in someway. He becomes more direct once you have reached out to him.

 

[Caroljeen]

And in order to do this, one must first recognize that he exists.

Or at least recognize the possibility that he exists

You make the decision to advance towards a thing that you don't believe is there.

But he might be there...

A bad analogy - I do not stipulate to the assumption that there is a "someone", or a "him".
"Why are you resisting my god's offer?" is the oldest apologetic trick in the book.

I've never "done" apologetics before. Not on a forum with atheists who are skilled at discussing these things. I've shared my faith in God with coworkers if the subject comes up naturally. With family members when I was first saved. It was a shock to them that I had become a Christian.

One must first believe he's there.
Before I owned a car, I never sought after my car keys.

Cart before the horse, and opens the door for confirmation bias.

I don't know why your god insists on "being found", when he can just make his presence known to all.

If you don't want to know if God exists, then simply go on as you always have. He won't forced himself on you.

^That makes two of us.

If "find" were put in inverted commas, I would agree completely.
Confirmation bias.

God's confirmation will not leave you in question as to whom you have found.

 

[Eightcrackers]

God's confirmation will not leave you in question as to whom you have found.

Nor would confirmation bias.
You offer no way to differentiate between a real answer and an imagined one.

 

[The Pixie]

The Nigerian email is asking for your money in some fashion. That is not what God is proposing through the gospel.

No, he only wants us to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind". Which is the bigger commitment?

How much money have you given to your church?

You already know what God is proposing through Christ. There is no hidden agenda trying to rip you off. I'm not even telling you to believe it blindly.

No I do not. I know what Christians tell me god is proposing, but I see no reason to suppose that is true. Why should I believe them?

In my case, I didn't believe God existed, but I found myself in a place that I needed help and there was no one I could go to so I prayed. "God, if you exist, ...", and he answered my prayer. Little unexpected things began to happen after that which were not natural. I began to think that perhaps God does exist. It was months before I became a Christian from that first prayer.

Why pray to the Christian God, rather than the Hindu gods or Allah?

The important point is reaching out to God that initiates a move by God to you that is more than just persuasive or drawing you in someway. He becomes more direct once you have reached out to him.

So like the Nigerian Prince. If I reach out to him...

 

[5wize]

In my case, I didn't believe God existed, but I found myself in a place that I needed help and there was no one I could go to so I prayed. "God, if you exist, ...", and he answered my prayer. Little unexpected things began to happen after that which were not natural. I began to think that perhaps God does exist. It was months before I became a Christian from that first prayer.

I am sincerely glad you found that in your life... but your relief does not entail my depravity and damnation, even though I am far from perfect. That is my only point. When you see me barking like I do, somebody has introduced that lie into the fabric. For many Christians that found your relief, that lie is part of the package.