Good News for Non-Christians

The Pixie

Well-known member
On another thread, a certain poster assured me that God wants to rescue me from Hell. This is great news! I certainly do not want to go to hell, so I am very happy for God to rescue me, and, if he exists, God is all powerful so literally nothing can stop him right?

It then got a bit weird, as said poster came up with all sorts of objections, none of which actually made sense, given I had already said I wanted to be rescued:
Correct. He's powerful enough to choose not to overpower our free will.
Correct. He does not want to interfere with your choice to reject Him.
Then quit whining about hell and tell Him you accept His rescue from it.
Your current rejection of Him and His rescue.
A lifeguard cannot rescue a drowning victim when the victim won't grab hold because he is flailing his arms while whining about how the lifeguard does not exist.
Can, but won't. He's powerful enough not to interfere in your free will to reject Him.
He will not rescue you without your permission. You can't give your permission to someone you don't think is offering it.
"Lifeguard, if you (glub, glub) exist, then (glub, glub) I fully give permission (glub, glub, glub) for you to, (cough, sputter) to ............. GLUB, GLUB, glub ................. glub ....................................................... gl..................................."
.......... that you will reject His rescue.

I want to be rescue - if it turns out I was wrong and Christianity is true. God wants to rescue me, he knows I want to be rescued from Hell. God is perfectly capable of rescuing me. As far as I can tell, I am in the clear.

The only problem is that this poster hates the idea of non-Christians avoiding suffering in Hell. Kind of odd, when Jesus second greatest command to that poster is to love us all.



So why the thread? I think this discussion has made clear the great dichotomy between a loving God who wants to save us all and the requirement that we have to join a religion to avoid going to Hell.

However, if we consider the religion to be the invention of man, it does make sense. The leaders of the religion want their money, their power and their prestige. It is very much to their benefit to say that you need to join their church to get to heaven.

Indeed, this goes further to explain all those numerous sects that characterise Christianity. It is not so much about how different people interpret scripture, it is about the leaders of each sect wanting to extend his power or at least cling to what he already has. The excesses of the Catholic church in previous centuries are only matched by the extravagances of the modern televangelists. All of it is antithetical to the lifestyle Jesus led, which further leads me to conclude all these people are in it for their own personal gain.

I appreciate this is not the case for people at CARM, but it does make me wonder why Christians follow these guys.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
On another thread, a certain poster assured me that God wants to rescue me from Hell.

"God who wants to save us all "
Who told you that God's greatest motivation is to save you?

Romans 9
"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—"

It seem that when He sends people to Hell. His Glory will be shown to those He saved
 
Last edited:

CrowCross

Well-known member
On another thread, a certain poster assured me that God wants to rescue me from Hell. This is great news! I certainly do not want to go to hell, so I am very happy for God to rescue me, and, if he exists, God is all powerful so literally nothing can stop him right?

It then got a bit weird, as said poster came up with all sorts of objections, none of which actually made sense, given I had already said I wanted to be rescued:
Correct. He's powerful enough to choose not to overpower our free will.
Correct. He does not want to interfere with your choice to reject Him.
Then quit whining about hell and tell Him you accept His rescue from it.
Your current rejection of Him and His rescue.
A lifeguard cannot rescue a drowning victim when the victim won't grab hold because he is flailing his arms while whining about how the lifeguard does not exist.
Can, but won't. He's powerful enough not to interfere in your free will to reject Him.
He will not rescue you without your permission. You can't give your permission to someone you don't think is offering it.
"Lifeguard, if you (glub, glub) exist, then (glub, glub) I fully give permission (glub, glub, glub) for you to, (cough, sputter) to ............. GLUB, GLUB, glub ................. glub ....................................................... gl..................................."
.......... that you will reject His rescue.

I want to be rescue - if it turns out I was wrong and Christianity is true. God wants to rescue me, he knows I want to be rescued from Hell. God is perfectly capable of rescuing me. As far as I can tell, I am in the clear.

The only problem is that this poster hates the idea of non-Christians avoiding suffering in Hell. Kind of odd, when Jesus second greatest command to that poster is to love us all.



So why the thread? I think this discussion has made clear the great dichotomy between a loving God who wants to save us all and the requirement that we have to join a religion to avoid going to Hell.

However, if we consider the religion to be the invention of man, it does make sense. The leaders of the religion want their money, their power and their prestige. It is very much to their benefit to say that you need to join their church to get to heaven.

Indeed, this goes further to explain all those numerous sects that characterise Christianity. It is not so much about how different people interpret scripture, it is about the leaders of each sect wanting to extend his power or at least cling to what he already has. The excesses of the Catholic church in previous centuries are only matched by the extravagances of the modern televangelists. All of it is antithetical to the lifestyle Jesus led, which further leads me to conclude all these people are in it for their own personal gain.

I appreciate this is not the case for people at CARM, but it does make me wonder why Christians follow these guys.
On another thread, a certain poster assured me that God wants to rescue me from Hell. This is great news! I certainly do not want to go to hell, so I am very happy for God to rescue me, and, if he exists, God is all powerful so literally nothing can stop him right?

It then got a bit weird, as said poster came up with all sorts of objections, none of which actually made sense, given I had already said I wanted to be rescued:
Correct. He's powerful enough to choose not to overpower our free will.
Correct. He does not want to interfere with your choice to reject Him.
Then quit whining about hell and tell Him you accept His rescue from it.
Your current rejection of Him and His rescue.
A lifeguard cannot rescue a drowning victim when the victim won't grab hold because he is flailing his arms while whining about how the lifeguard does not exist.
Can, but won't. He's powerful enough not to interfere in your free will to reject Him.
He will not rescue you without your permission. You can't give your permission to someone you don't think is offering it.
"Lifeguard, if you (glub, glub) exist, then (glub, glub) I fully give permission (glub, glub, glub) for you to, (cough, sputter) to ............. GLUB, GLUB, glub ................. glub ....................................................... gl..................................."
.......... that you will reject His rescue.

I want to be rescue - if it turns out I was wrong and Christianity is true. God wants to rescue me, he knows I want to be rescued from Hell. God is perfectly capable of rescuing me. As far as I can tell, I am in the clear.

The only problem is that this poster hates the idea of non-Christians avoiding suffering in Hell. Kind of odd, when Jesus second greatest command to that poster is to love us all.



So why the thread? I think this discussion has made clear the great dichotomy between a loving God who wants to save us all and the requirement that we have to join a religion to avoid going to Hell.

However, if we consider the religion to be the invention of man, it does make sense. The leaders of the religion want their money, their power and their prestige. It is very much to their benefit to say that you need to join their church to get to heaven.

Indeed, this goes further to explain all those numerous sects that characterise Christianity. It is not so much about how different people interpret scripture, it is about the leaders of each sect wanting to extend his power or at least cling to what he already has. The excesses of the Catholic church in previous centuries are only matched by the extravagances of the modern televangelists. All of it is antithetical to the lifestyle Jesus led, which further leads me to conclude all these people are in it for their own personal gain.

I appreciate this is not the case for people at CARM, but it does make me wonder why Christians follow these guys.
I think your anti-God problem in this post, or repost is based upon bad information.

From the post,,,A lifeguard cannot rescue a drowning victim when the victim won't grab hold because he is flailing his arms while whining about how the lifeguard does not exist.

That's a bad analogy. Prior to salvation a person isn't "drowning" and all they have to do is grab hold.
It's more like....they have already drowned, They're dead. Past the lifeguard. No hope unless God pulls your dead self from the water and restores life to your dead spirit.

Point 2...The great dichotomy between a loving God who wants to save us all and the requirement that we have to join a religion to avoid going to Hell....is hogwash. God doesn't want to save us all. God only saves the predestined elect. Joining a religion doesn't save anyone.

But you do point out...actually stumbled upon it...the excesses, the power some of the clergy wants to cling on to...which makes me wonder why Christians follow these guys.
 

J regia

Well-known member
"God who wants to save us all "
Who told you that God's greatest motivation is to save you?

Romans 9
"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—"

It seem that when He sends people to Hell. His Glory will be shown to those He saved
And 1Tim 4:9-11 says that unbelievers are saved and don't need to tithe to preacher men selling insurance policies for after-death salvation.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
On another thread, a certain poster assured me that God wants to rescue me from Hell. This is great news! I certainly do not want to go to hell, so I am very happy for God to rescue me, and, if he exists, God is all powerful so literally nothing can stop him right?

It then got a bit weird, as said poster came up with all sorts of objections, none of which actually made sense, given I had already said I wanted to be rescued:
Correct. He's powerful enough to choose not to overpower our free will.
Correct. He does not want to interfere with your choice to reject Him.
Then quit whining about hell and tell Him you accept His rescue from it.
Your current rejection of Him and His rescue.
A lifeguard cannot rescue a drowning victim when the victim won't grab hold because he is flailing his arms while whining about how the lifeguard does not exist.
Can, but won't. He's powerful enough not to interfere in your free will to reject Him.
He will not rescue you without your permission. You can't give your permission to someone you don't think is offering it.
"Lifeguard, if you (glub, glub) exist, then (glub, glub) I fully give permission (glub, glub, glub) for you to, (cough, sputter) to ............. GLUB, GLUB, glub ................. glub ....................................................... gl..................................."
.......... that you will reject His rescue.

I want to be rescue - if it turns out I was wrong and Christianity is true. God wants to rescue me, he knows I want to be rescued from Hell. God is perfectly capable of rescuing me. As far as I can tell, I am in the clear.

The only problem is that this poster hates the idea of non-Christians avoiding suffering in Hell. Kind of odd, when Jesus second greatest command to that poster is to love us all.



So why the thread? I think this discussion has made clear the great dichotomy between a loving God who wants to save us all and the requirement that we have to join a religion to avoid going to Hell.

However, if we consider the religion to be the invention of man, it does make sense. The leaders of the religion want their money, their power and their prestige. It is very much to their benefit to say that you need to join their church to get to heaven.

Indeed, this goes further to explain all those numerous sects that characterise Christianity. It is not so much about how different people interpret scripture, it is about the leaders of each sect wanting to extend his power or at least cling to what he already has. The excesses of the Catholic church in previous centuries are only matched by the extravagances of the modern televangelists. All of it is antithetical to the lifestyle Jesus led, which further leads me to conclude all these people are in it for their own personal gain.

I appreciate this is not the case for people at CARM, but it does make me wonder why Christians follow these guys.
God wanting to save you from hell is exactly why Jesus came.

Seriously, read the gospel of John and the letter to the Romans.

John details who Jesus is and Romans details what he came to achieve on our behalf.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
"God who wants to save us all "
Who told you that God's greatest motivation is to save you?
No one and I never said that.

Romans 9
"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—"

It seem that when He sends people to Hell. His Glory will be shown to those He saved
Ah, so your position that God would quite like us not to go to Hell, but he has a bigger priority - glorifying himself. In your view, God tortures billions in Hell for the sake of his own ego.

And you worship and love this guy?
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
I think your anti-God problem in this post, or repost is based upon bad information.

From the post,,,A lifeguard cannot rescue a drowning victim when the victim won't grab hold because he is flailing his arms while whining about how the lifeguard does not exist.

That's a bad analogy. Prior to salvation a person isn't "drowning" and all they have to do is grab hold.
It's more like....they have already drowned, They're dead. Past the lifeguard. No hope unless God pulls your dead self from the water and restores life to your dead spirit.

Point 2...The great dichotomy between a loving God who wants to save us all and the requirement that we have to join a religion to avoid going to Hell....is hogwash. God doesn't want to save us all. God only saves the predestined elect. Joining a religion doesn't save anyone.

But you do point out...actually stumbled upon it...the excesses, the power some of the clergy wants to cling on to...which makes me wonder why Christians follow these guys.
I find I cannot really disagree with any of that.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
No one and I never said that.


Ah, so your position that God would quite like us not to go to Hell, but he has a bigger priority - glorifying himself. In your view, God tortures billions in Hell for the sake of his own ego.

And you worship and love this guy?
There will be no one in hell who does not deserve to be there. No one will be there who can give a good reason, a warranted reason, why they shouldn’t be there. All of the world will know this and will vindicate God in it. There will be no doubting the justice of God at the last day. That is the first thing that has to be said, biblically, that no one will be in hell who doesn’t deserve to be there.

Second, no one will be in hell who is not in a state of rebellion against God. If we have any sense that people are being thrown in hell who are not in rebellion against God but are lovers of God or they are repenting towards God or they are embracing God or they are somehow not in rebellion against God, that is just a foreign concept to the Bible. The only people who will suffer are people who have been opposing God and are at the present moment in hell opposing God, rejecting God.


What you describe as "torture" is actually is His Holy presence.
Everybody who is in hell would do everything that they could to get rid of Him. They would pay any price if it was possible. The problem is that He is there, and He’s there in His judgment. Those in Hell will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

and if all God ever did was create the universe and did nothing else; He would be worth of worship
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
There will be no one in hell who does not deserve to be there. No one will be there who can give a good reason, a warranted reason, why they shouldn’t be there. All of the world will know this and will vindicate God in it. There will be no doubting the justice of God at the last day. That is the first thing that has to be said, biblically, that no one will be in hell who doesn’t deserve to be there.

Second, no one will be in hell who is not in a state of rebellion against God. If we have any sense that people are being thrown in hell who are not in rebellion against God but are lovers of God or they are repenting towards God or they are embracing God or they are somehow not in rebellion against God, that is just a foreign concept to the Bible. The only people who will suffer are people who have been opposing God and are at the present moment in hell opposing God, rejecting God.


What describe as torture is His presence.
Everybody who is in hell would do everything that they could to get rid of Him. They would pay any price if it was possible. The problem is that He is there, and He’s there in His judgment. Those in Hell will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

and if all God ever did was create the universe and did nothing else; He would be worth of worship
How can I be in a state of rebellion against God if I don't think He exists? To rebel against something, I would have to think it exists.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
There will be no one in hell who does not deserve to be there.
Does that mean only people who have lived bad lives; rapists and murderers, etc.? Or does it mean anyone who does not worship God, i.e., breaking that first command? Or does it mean everyone - most Christians say everyone deserves to go to hell. There is a huge scope in this statement.

No one will be there who can give a good reason, a warranted reason, why they shouldn’t be there. All of the world will know this and will vindicate God in it. There will be no doubting the justice of God at the last day. That is the first thing that has to be said, biblically, that no one will be in hell who doesn’t deserve to be there.

Second, no one will be in hell who is not in a state of rebellion against God. If we have any sense that people are being thrown in hell who are not in rebellion against God but are lovers of God or they are repenting towards God or they are embracing God or they are somehow not in rebellion against God, that is just a foreign concept to the Bible. The only people who will suffer are people who have been opposing God and are at the present moment in hell opposing God, rejecting God.
Right, so what you mean is God will be torturing everyone who fails to worship him. You wrap it up as "deserve", but that is what it comes down to. Anyone failing to worship God "deserves" to get tortured by him.

What you describe as "torture" is actually is His Holy presence.
What I describe as torture is the deliberate causing of pain. God is all-powerful, he could prevent that suffering if he chose to. He chooses to have those billions in hell suffer. So, yeah, I describe it as torture because that is what it is.

Everybody who is in hell would do everything that they could to get rid of Him. They would pay any price if it was possible. The problem is that He is there, and He’s there in His judgment. Those in Hell will know Him as an all-consuming fire.
Right, he is torturing them, and naturally they would do anything to stop that.

and if all God ever did was create the universe and did nothing else; He would be worth of worship
Not sure I could worship a God who tortures billions, even if I thought he existed. Then again, I do not think I could be happy in heaven with God knowing that he was torturing billions of people at the same time.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Does that mean only people who have lived bad lives; rapists and murderers, etc.? Or does it mean anyone who does not worship God, i.e., breaking that first command? Or does it mean everyone - most Christians say everyone deserves to go to hell. There is a huge scope in this statement.


Right, so what you mean is God will be torturing everyone who fails to worship him. You wrap it up as "deserve", but that is what it comes down to. Anyone failing to worship God "deserves" to get tortured by him.


What I describe as torture is the deliberate causing of pain. God is all-powerful, he could prevent that suffering if he chose to. He chooses to have those billions in hell suffer. So, yeah, I describe it as torture because that is what it is.


Right, he is torturing them, and naturally they would do anything to stop that.


Not sure I could worship a God who tortures billions, even if I thought he existed. Then again, I do not think I could be happy in heaven with God knowing that he was torturing billions of people at the same time.
deserved punishment is not torture:
i do understand that no one wants to be justly punished
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
But I honestly don't think it does. If I've made an honest mistake, how can I be without excuse?

How does creation declare a creator?
Simply by you posting on these forums...your anti-God offensive post...or should I say your INTENTIAL anti-God offensive post clearly indicates your disbelief in NOT an honest mistake. You go out of your way to disbelieve.
 
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