Grace in Action

[JDS]

It's absolutely true. Being an IFB you are under the direct influence of Dispy teachings stemming from DTS and other places, but you're going to seed now. It is an inherent hand-me-down ideology among IFB's, and you are thoroughly indoctrinated by its influence in your circles and can see nothing else clearly.

I'm fully aware of IFB teachings, methods &c having come out of one of its groups years ago.

You are wanting to make this about me and you refuse to say whether you believe the words I quoted from the scriptures. If I have twisted them or been dishonest with them, I need to know. So far, no one has written one word about the quotes of the 4 gospel writers and given us their assessment of them.

I am trying to help you fellows. You must believe the words.

 

[JDS]

Strawman again what I posted has nothing to do with calvinism and the Arminians will agree with my last post. You are heterodox not us.

What do you believe about the presentation I have made. I don't know anything about heterodox. I am wondering what you believe about the quotes I presented and the reasoning I gave based on what was said. Does believing the words make one heterodox?

We are getting completely away from the subject and you fellows are waging a war against me without a cause. I am simply believing what I read and asking if you believe it.

 

[guest1]

What do you believe about the presentation I have made. I don't know anything about heterodox. I am wondering what you believe about the quotes I presented and the reasoning I gave based on what was said. Does believing the words make one heterodox?

We are getting completely away from the subject and you fellows are waging a war against me without a cause. I am simply believing what I read and asking if you believe it.

Look you are the one coming in here trying to “ correct” us and we did not ask or imply we were seeking that from you. You are the one fixed on this tangent.

 

[preacher4truth]

You are wanting to make this about me and you refuse to say whether you believe the words I quoted from the scriptures. If I have twisted them or been dishonest with them, I need to know. So far, no one has written one word about the quotes of the 4 gospel writers and given us their assessment of them.

Because it is about you as it always is with IFB's. It is about you, your sect, and your take on Scripture via a dispy lens.

I am trying to help you fellows.

That is the smug attitude I've witnessed among fundies for years.

You must believe the words.

I believe Scripture, however, I don't believe your words.

 

[JDS]

Oh, end with the disingenuous pretense, OK?

Your question isn't concerning whether or not I believe them, it's whether or not I believe your take on them, making your point of view on Scripture truth (in your world/subjective) instead of Scripture itself (God's revelation/objective).

So in a nutshell, you're asking do I believe you, not Scripture. Answer? No, I do not believe in your words.

Carry on.

Please trust me. I am wondering if you believe the words of these gospel writers, all of whom reported that after 3.5 years of ministering the gospel of the kingdom of God with Jesus Christ they did not understand anything about his dying in Jerusalem. I will provide the quotes to you again because you obviously have not read them. But first, here is a report from the mouths of two of those who ministered in those 3.5 years. This is right out of their mouths. Watch this.

Lk 24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

It is obvious from this conversation that these disciples did not have a clue that his redeeming Israel meant that he had to die and rise again from the dead. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

These men were like you and me. They must be taught of God.

Here are the quote again.

Matthew
16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mark
9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Luke
18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

John
20:8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

I am trying to help.

 

[JDS]

Look you are the one coming in here trying to “ correct” us and we did not ask or imply we were seeking that from you. You are the one fixed on this tangent.

I am bringing pressure against the Calvinistic system and you are at a crossroad. Which way will you go?

 

[rhomphaeam]

I am a man civic and the reason I am addressing you is because you seem to be a respected spokesman for the Calvinists on the board. I can't talk to two of these fellows and I have put them on my ignore list because one of them uses language that a simple person like myself cannot understand and I don't have time to try to figure out his meaning and the other guy has not repented of the lie he told and then informed me that he was not going to read my posts. What kind of conversation would be possible with him.

I am a Baptist. I fellowship with non-denominational Baptists (independents). I am dispensational because God is dispensational, and that is the only reason I hold that view. Pre trib, pre mil. I believe every word of my Bible but I might not believe every word of yours. I believe what Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John said about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in their record of his earthly life. I have quoted what they said at the end of his ministry and just before he died and rose again and you have left me with the impression you do not believe them. You have liked what others who definitely do not believe what they have said about it in their comments.

You cannot unlearn what I have taught you. You probably have never seen these quotes from these four men pointed out. You cannot plead ignorance any longer. If you do not believe these men now, it will be because you have decided through reason and forethought not to accept what they said as being the truth. That is how simple it is.

I am asking you to believe the words.

Unlearning what you have taught is as simple as closing my eyes. You sound as though you are deficient of ordinary means of intelect - to which you fein a poor simple mind. That you may have and that may also represent your folly because being simple does not mean being stupid. I went to a residential school for people with a learning disability for six years. Yet you say my words are too difficult. Save your fake sympathy for those who are vulnerable to it and your false conscience for the devil. You are a Baptist and a man and dispensationalist. He happy with that. And don't presume to appoint any man my leader. Calvinism isn't a shooting club - its a theological framework of belief predicated on the word of God.

 

[guest1]

I am bringing pressure against the Calvinistic system and you are at a crossroad. Which way will you go?

What you are talking about has nothing to do with Calvinism since the Arminians agree with us and not you on this topic . So you might as well say you are “ correcting “ Arminians LOL. Your beliefs are heterodox.

hope this helps !!!

 

[rhomphaeam]

I am bringing pressure against the Calvinistic system and you are at a crossroad. Which way will you go?

The only person you are bringing pressure on is yourself. Stop being the teacher and start being the peer. This isn't a classroom and no one is the teacher other than Christ working in each of us to the extent that we lay hold of the Scripture. So to that claim of my words which you don't even have the courtesy to attribute to me in this OP as you refer I can't talk to two of these fellows - the other fellow being who precisely I don't know? - but at least I know I am one of those fellows. Well here is the rub - you told me that you do not understand my words and I told you I knew that you didn't understand my words. You will just have to accept that if you ever will understand me, even in the smallest semblance of what I have said to you you will need to set aside yourself first - because how I write and minister in the churches is prophetic and not teaching. Get used to it - I am not changing to meet your natural mind. What believers need today is a separation that leads to rejecting heterodoxy that sows confusion and embracing the cross unto death daily otherwise we are never going to be free from simple minds - when in truth simple means lying minds.

 

[preacher4truth]

The only person you are bringing pressure on is yourself. Stop being the teacher and start being the peer. This isn't a classroom and no one is the teacher other than Christ working in each of us to the extent that we lay hold of the Scripture. So to that claim of my words which you don't even have the courtesy to attribute to me in this OP as you refer I can't talk to two of these fellows - the other fellow being who precisely I don't know? - but at least I know I am one of those fellows. Well here is the rub - you told me that you do not understand my words and I told you I knew that you didn't understand my words. You will just have to accept that if you ever will understand me, even in the smallest semblance of what I have said to you you will need to set aside yourself first - because how I write and minister in the churches is prophetic and not teaching. Get used to it - I am not changing to meet your natural mind. What believers need today is a separation that leads to rejecting heterodoxy that sows confusion and embracing the cross unto death daily otherwise we are never going to be free from simple minds - when in truth simple means lying minds.

It's funny really. This polemic of his is all about "us" (Calvinists) and he has even claimed it to be so, yet when we show his errors by certain responses he gets bent and says; "You're making this about me!"

Um. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JDS]

What you are talking about has nothing to do with Calvinism since the Arminians agree with us and not you on this topic . So you might as well say you are “ correcting “ Arminians LOL. Your beliefs are heterodox.

hope this helps !!!

You are making no sense, civic. The answer to the question about the quotes I gave is the same for every person. Do you think Noah was saved from his sin by believing the gospel of the kingdom, the gospel that was preached to Israel by the Lord Jesus Christ and John the Baptist and 82 disciples, who were surprised, sad, and defeated at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, not understanding anything about his resurrection.
This is not about sectarianism. This is about what happened. You can believe the words.

 

[JDS]

It's funny really. This polemic of his is all about "us" (Calvinists) and he has even claimed it to be so, yet when we show his errors by certain responses he gets bent and says; "You're making this about me!"

Um. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have not shown any errors. What in the world are you talking about? You have not addressed a single point that I have made. I think I have read all your comments addressed to me or about what I have said.

Post a link to prove you have addressed errors. I would like to read it again.

I am telling you the truth.

 

[preacher4truth]

You have not shown any errors. What in the world are you talking about? You have not addressed a single point that I have made. I think I have read all your comments addressed to me or about what I have said.

Post a link to prove you have addressed errors. I would like to read it again.

I am telling you the truth.

Go on with yourself, and keep telling us we're all lost.

How many gospels are there champ?

 

[preacher4truth]

Please trust me.

Um. No.

I am wondering if you believe the words of these gospel writers,

Lose the smug asinine attitude. OK? The pretense we don't believe Scripture is nothing short of slander.

all of whom reported that after 3.5 years of ministering the gospel of the kingdom of God with Jesus Christ they did not understand anything about his dying in Jerusalem. I will provide the quotes to you again because you obviously have not read them. But first, here is a report from the mouths of two of those who ministered in those 3.5 years. This is right out of their mouths. Watch this.

Lk 24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

It is obvious from this conversation that these disciples did not have a clue that his redeeming Israel meant that he had to die and rise again from the dead. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

These men were like you and me. They must be taught of God.

Here are the quote again.

Matthew
16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mark
9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Luke
18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

John
20:8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

I am trying to help.

So...what is your point?

Of course they didn't understand, they presupposed what would take place just as dispies like you think all of this is plan B, you also presuppose your beliefs into Scripture.

 

[rhomphaeam]

It's funny really. This polemic of his is all about "us" (Calvinists) and he has even claimed it to be so, yet when we show his errors by certain responses he gets bent and says; "You're making this about me!"

Um. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed. It really is remarkable what length folks go to avoid being normal.

 

[JDS]

Go on with yourself, and keep telling us we're all lost.

How many gospels are there champ?

To know if you are lost is above my ability to know. It seems you are having a difficult time with the quotes of the 4 gospel writters, who were eye witnesses and heard most of what was spoken and reported on it. I would think one could take their words on what happened and even why it happened.

How many gospels? How much good news, glad tiding are there? This kingdom promise to Israel with the Messiah ruling over them, and by extension, the whole world, is one of 4 major themes of the prophetic OT scriptures. This is the good news to Israel. The promised Messiah is here to fulfill the promises and all they need do is repent and receive him and he would establish his kingdom in a short order after he had accomplished all that was written about him. The kingdom was taken off the table in Matt 12. In Matt 13, Jesus partially blinded the eyes of Judah and introduced his plans for the mystery form of the kingdom of heaven and explained it as a growing season which began with an empty field and ended with gathering the harvest into his barn. That is this age we are living in and harvest is near. God will fulfill his kingdom promises to Israel and the world in the age to come.

In this age, we have the gospel of God, which is the good news that God has extended saving grace through Christ to all the nations of the world even in the absence of any OT promises to them that he is bound by his nature to keep and will accept whosoever will come to him in the name of his son, Jesus Christ, whose blood was the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world. This brings us to the gospel of salvation though Christ, who died for us and is risen from the dead, and is coming again.

The gospel of God is the theme of all 13 letters of the apostle Paul, the man chosen of God to be the apostle to the gentiles.

You may not believe what I am telling you and you might go to the grave rejecting the counsel of a man who is willing to tell you the truth while exalting our Lord Jesus Christ, in whom I trust, to be preeminent in my theology.

 

[preacher4truth]

To know if you are lost is above my ability to know.

You've claimed Calvinists lost numerous times.

It seems you are having a difficult time with the quotes of the 4 gospel writters

Unsubstantiated nonsense.

 

[JDS]

Um. No.

Lose the smug asinine attitude. OK? The pretense we don't believe Scripture is nothing short of slander.

So...what is your point?

Of course they didn't understand, they presupposed what would take place just as dispies like you think all of this is plan B, you also presuppose your beliefs into Scripture.

It is not an "of course, they didn't understand." Haven't you been following the logic of civic and others. They said there is no difference in OT and NT and what men believe to be saved. That is what they said. They said Noah, Abraham, and these 4 gospel writers all believed the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nobody could believe that, especially brilliant minds like civic, unless they were just blinded by religion and left off reasoning for themselves. They have no comment on the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ when John began calling Israel to repent because Christ was coming.

So, please, do not give me this "of course" stuff.

God did not prophecy of this mystery age in the OT but he did write it in a series of mysteries and kept it hidden in types and similitudes, shadows, nd figures because his call for Israel to repent and be established was real and the mysteries would never have been revealed if they had received Christ and been saved as a nation. They eventually will but in the age to come and every promise to them as a people will be confirmed. This will happen whether you believe it or not.

 

[rhomphaeam]

To know if you are lost is above my ability to know. It seems you are having a difficult time with the quotes of the 4 gospel writters

You said the above to @preacher4truth

And the bellow to @preacher4truth about @civic

That is what they said. They said Noah, Abraham, and these 4 gospel writers all believed the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nobody could believe that, especially brilliant minds like civic, unless they were just blinded by religion and left off reasoning for themselves.

So lets get this clear then. @preacher4truth may not even be a believer but @civic is a brilliant mind but has given it up in favour of a religious dogma called Calvinism.

It's no wonder you have to deceive others and express yourself as having a simple mind. Thats the only cover your going to be able to hide behind. You are divisive and what you should be doing is rightly dividing the word of truth. Of course as a Jew and a Calvinist the good news is that I have been called to divide men by effect of the gospel of Christ. You are making a real mess of it - because you are trying to divide men who agree on a sound doctrine. Divide the dogma not the men. That at least would be rational and reasonable - but to divide men is insolent and false unless you have been called to do it for the sake of the kingdom to come. It's a Jewish hope - not a Gentile ambition.

 

[preacher4truth]

It is not an "of course, they didn't understand."

But it is, as the Scripture says so plainly.

Haven't you been following the logic of civic and others. They said there is no difference in OT and NT and what men believe to be saved. That is what they said. They said Noah, Abraham, and these 4 gospel writers all believed the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Cool! Then they know and believe as I do that salvation has always been by grace, and always had faith in the protoevangelium. In other words, they knew God would save them through Messiah, but they didn't know it as clearly as we do today.

Here is some Scripture you don't believe. Sound familiar?

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look." 1 Peter 1:11-12

Now, if you're asking me to explain this and tell you how they knew all this, then guess what? I can't and it doesn't matter that I cannot. However, I do believe it.

Nobody could believe that, especially brilliant minds like civic, unless they were just blinded by religion and left off reasoning for themselves. They have no comment on the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ when John began calling Israel to repent because Christ was coming.

That isn't the beginning of the Gospel. It began before eternity. Note Revelation 14:6; Titus 1:2 &c.

You are attempting, like a hyper-dispy to make this Gospel brand new at a point in history, only in order to support your dispy error.

So, please, do not give me this "of course" stuff.

Too late, already did. Of course they didn't understand.

Just because they didn't understand doesn't make it any less true. These things are revealed by the Spirit of God to the regenerate; 1 Corinthians 2:14, and that is the teaching in Luke 24 where He opened their eyes, it is an illustration of this truth. You act as if everyone in the OT should have seen and known this, but God doesn't reveal His truth to everyone.

In fact, Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not knowing this, John 3:10. In other words, he should have been able to deduce this from OT Scripture by Spirit illumination.

God did not prophecy of this mystery age in the OT

What mystery age? You're making things up. LOL!!! He spoke directly about the age we are in now. Obviously you don't know your Scripture very well at all.

but he did write it in a series of mysteries and kept it hidden in types and similitudes, shadows, nd figures because his call for Israel to repent and be established was real and the mysteries would never have been revealed if they had received Christ and been saved as a nation. They eventually will but in the age to come and every promise to them as a people will be confirmed.

Blather.

This will happen whether you believe it or not.

More smug slander. You know slander is against Scripture, correct?