Happy Anniversary Vatican II

1Thess521

1Thess521

Well-known member
Today marks 60 years since the opening of the Second Vatican Council — a seismic event in the history of the Church.

how did that work out for you?


by 1975 a staggering 100,000 clerics worldwide had left the priesthood.
In the United States alone, the number of seminarians plummeted 90% — from 49,000 in 1965 to a mere 4,700 by 2002.

In 1965, there were 180,000 U.S. nuns. By 2002 there were only 75,000 left. By 2021 that number had fallen to a meager 40,000.

In spite of the Council's desire for the laity's "full and active participation" in sacred liturgy, Mass attendance dropped by nearly half between 1955 and 2014.

Of those Catholics who remain, 7 in 10 don't believe Christ is really present in the Eucharist.

In 1970 there were approximately 425,000 Catholic marriages. By 2021 there were only 100,000. One million infants were baptized Catholic in 1970. By 2021, fewer than a half million received baptism.



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Lethal Tsunami

Rocking the 'boat'
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1Thess521 said:
Today marks 60 years since the opening of the Second Vatican Council — a seismic event in the history of the Church.

how did that work out for you?


by 1975 a staggering 100,000 clerics worldwide had left the priesthood.
In the United States alone, the number of seminarians plummeted 90% — from 49,000 in 1965 to a mere 4,700 by 2002.

In 1965, there were 180,000 U.S. nuns. By 2002 there were only 75,000 left. By 2021 that number had fallen to a meager 40,000.

In spite of the Council's desire for the laity's "full and active participation" in sacred liturgy, Mass attendance dropped by nearly half between 1955 and 2014.

Of those Catholics who remain, 7 in 10 don't believe Christ is really present in the Eucharist.

In 1970 there were approximately 425,000 Catholic marriages. By 2021 there were only 100,000. One million infants were baptized Catholic in 1970. By 2021, fewer than a half million received baptism.
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Mt 7:13-14
 
1Thess521 said:
In spite of the Council's desire for the laity's "full and active participation" in sacred liturgy, Mass attendance dropped by nearly half between 1955 and 2014.
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Numbers of people showing up to mass is not the measure of full and active participation. It is what those that do show up to mass do at mass. Before Vatican II it was common for people to go to mass and spend the hour in private prayer, praying the rosary, or other forms of private devotion. It was difficult to hear the priest much of the time, except for the homily, which was a short afterthought much of the time. One of the reforms of Vatican II was to bring the laity into the celebration with more active responses. When we attend mass now in most places the people really are engaged in the mass. They participate more than before.

Mass attendance in the US may be falling (as is a general turn away from all religion), but mass attendance is growing in Africa. That may be a consequence of prosperity. It happened to the ancient Jews as well. When things were going well, the Jews fell away from worshipping the Lord and turned to other gods. But when they were exiled in Babylon, they repented and remembered the Lord. It is likely that if Vatican II had not happened, the decline in US mass attendance would have been even worse. By the way, Vatican II was just a continuation of some reforms that started years before the council was called. And it has been vastly misrepresented, even by some well-meaning Catholics and clergy who imagined that the council furthered their private agendas.

There are several good books on the real content of Vatican II, but even better is to go directly to the source. The main output of Vatican II was four documents:

Sacrosanctum Concilium - (about the Sacred Liturgy)
Gaudium et Spes - (how the Church engages the modern world)
Lumen Gentium - (on the Church)
Dei Verbum - (on the Word of God)
 
1Thess521 said:
Today marks 60 years since the opening of the Second Vatican Council — a seismic event in the history of the Church.

how did that work out for you?


by 1975 a staggering 100,000 clerics worldwide had left the priesthood.
In the United States alone, the number of seminarians plummeted 90% — from 49,000 in 1965 to a mere 4,700 by 2002.

In 1965, there were 180,000 U.S. nuns. By 2002 there were only 75,000 left. By 2021 that number had fallen to a meager 40,000.

In spite of the Council's desire for the laity's "full and active participation" in sacred liturgy, Mass attendance dropped by nearly half between 1955 and 2014.

Of those Catholics who remain, 7 in 10 don't believe Christ is really present in the Eucharist.

In 1970 there were approximately 425,000 Catholic marriages. By 2021 there were only 100,000. One million infants were baptized Catholic in 1970. By 2021, fewer than a half million received baptism.
Click to expand...
I think that the sample was too narrow. Pre-/post-V2 comparisons are made, with the deduction that V2 was A Bad Thing. But what happened in other religions? Did their numbers change similarly – that is, was it a societal phenomenon, or just limited to the RCC? And what was happening pre-V2?
Did V2 initiate a trend, or accelerate it, or decelerate it, or have no effect at all?

Also, using two data points can only determine a straight line. It is not good for determining trends.

E.g., if Sample 1 at Year 0 is 100, and Sample 2 at Year 1 is 110, and Sample 3 at Year 2 is 10, and Sample 4 at Year 3 is 50, to say that the difference between Year 0 and Year 3 is -50 is misleading, insofar as the trend between Years 2 and 3 is actually upward.

The article may be correct, but with so few data points it is unreliable.

As Mark Twain is accused of saying, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
 
1Thess521 said:
Today marks 60 years since the opening of the Second Vatican Council — a seismic event in the history of the Church.

how did that work out for you?


by 1975 a staggering 100,000 clerics worldwide had left the priesthood.
In the United States alone, the number of seminarians plummeted 90% — from 49,000 in 1965 to a mere 4,700 by 2002.

In 1965, there were 180,000 U.S. nuns. By 2002 there were only 75,000 left. By 2021 that number had fallen to a meager 40,000.

In spite of the Council's desire for the laity's "full and active participation" in sacred liturgy, Mass attendance dropped by nearly half between 1955 and 2014.

Of those Catholics who remain, 7 in 10 don't believe Christ is really present in the Eucharist.

In 1970 there were approximately 425,000 Catholic marriages. By 2021 there were only 100,000. One million infants were baptized Catholic in 1970. By 2021, fewer than a half million received baptism.



www.churchmilitant.com

Lethal Tsunami

Rocking the 'boat'
www.churchmilitant.com
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It has caused more splits in the RCC and did not take the RCC back to the true, it did not remove its false teachings. It failed to hear the voice of God.
 
RiJoRi said:
I think that the sample was too narrow. Pre-/post-V2 comparisons are made, with the deduction that V2 was A Bad Thing. But what happened in other religions? Did their numbers change similarly – that is, was it a societal phenomenon, or just limited to the RCC? And what was happening pre-V2?
Did V2 initiate a trend, or accelerate it, or decelerate it, or have no effect at all?

Also, using two data points can only determine a straight line. It is not good for determining trends.

E.g., if Sample 1 at Year 0 is 100, and Sample 2 at Year 1 is 110, and Sample 3 at Year 2 is 10, and Sample 4 at Year 3 is 50, to say that the difference between Year 0 and Year 3 is -50 is misleading, insofar as the trend between Years 2 and 3 is actually upward.

The article may be correct, but with so few data points it is unreliable.

As Mark Twain is accused of saying, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
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Those are good questions to ask.
 
1Thess521 said:
Today marks 60 years since the opening of the Second Vatican Council — a seismic event in the history of the Church.

how did that work out for you?


by 1975 a staggering 100,000 clerics worldwide had left the priesthood.
In the United States alone, the number of seminarians plummeted 90% — from 49,000 in 1965 to a mere 4,700 by 2002.

In 1965, there were 180,000 U.S. nuns. By 2002 there were only 75,000 left. By 2021 that number had fallen to a meager 40,000.

In spite of the Council's desire for the laity's "full and active participation" in sacred liturgy, Mass attendance dropped by nearly half between 1955 and 2014.

Of those Catholics who remain, 7 in 10 don't believe Christ is really present in the Eucharist.

In 1970 there were approximately 425,000 Catholic marriages. By 2021 there were only 100,000. One million infants were baptized Catholic in 1970. By 2021, fewer than a half million received baptism.



www.churchmilitant.com

Lethal Tsunami

Rocking the 'boat'
www.churchmilitant.com
Click to expand...
The Pope is still the one who Jesus has given authority to. A Christian will never go wrong by listening to the one that has been given authority by Jesus.
 
dingoling. said:
The Pope is still the one who Jesus has given authority to. A Christian will never go wrong by listening to the one that has been given authority by Jesus.
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Do you want to put that to a test?

or is this when you "clarify" your words and say you meant only certain statements at certain times from the Pope?
 
1Thess521 said:
Do you want to put that to a test?

or is this when you "clarify" your words and say you meant only certain statements at certain times from the Pope?
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You keep missing the point. His authority comes from Jesus. So when the church puts out its official teachings concerning the Christian faith then that is what we are to believe. E.g. the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ.
 
dingoling. said:
You keep missing the point. His authority comes from Jesus. So when the church puts out its official teachings concerning the Christian faith then that is what we are to believe. E.g. the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ.
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You said
"The Pope is still the one who Jesus has given authority to. A Christian will never go wrong by listening to the one that has been given authority by Jesus."

Do want example of where that statement is false?
 
dingoling. said:
You keep missing the point. His authority comes from Jesus. So when the church puts out its official teachings concerning the Christian faith then that is what we are to believe. E.g. the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ.
Click to expand...
No you miss the point, his fruit proves he has no authority from Jesus. He is a wolf.
 
Arch Stanton said:
I'm Catholic!
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Vatican II decreed and implemented teachings previously condemned by the Infallible Teaching Magisterium of the Church.

It created a novel, heretical ecclesiology in which the big tent "Church of Christ" consists of a collection of contradicting schismatic and non-Catholic sects with contradicting doctrines, worship, disciplines, morality and government which are not in union with each other.

Its teaching on ecumenism is overtly heretical in that it teaches that non-Catholic sects themselves are "particular churches" and are a "means of salvation." This doctrine directly contradicts the De fide teaching of the Church that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, called by Pope Pius IX a “most well-known Catholic dogma.”

Vatican II claims that Muslims worship the same god as Christians and that they are part of the "plan of salvation."

Vatican II praised the pagan religions of Hinduism and Buddhism and claims that one can be an atheist through no fault of their own.

Vatican II teaching on religious liberty, contained in Dignitatis Humanae, nearly word for word asserts the very doctrine which was condemned directly by multiple popes in the past.

Vatican II teaching concerning collegiality attempts to alter the monarchical constitution of the Catholic Church, with which she was endowed by the Divine Savior.

The fruits of Vatican II are like the atomic bombs being dropped on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; a near complete destruction of the dogmas, liturgy and disciplines of the Catholic Church.

Now the Novus Ordo sect is being led by a public manifest apostate that has repeatedly denied the Catholic Faith and that there even exists any true religion at all.

He endorses divorce, abortion, adultery, sodomy, LQBTQ/pedophile/transgenderism, humanism, religious indifferentism, pantheism and communism. He is trying to destroy what little remains of Catholicism in his perverted Novus Ordo religion by eliminating the Latin Mass. He is causing a schism within his sect.

Thank God more and more people each day are recognizing that it is impossible for this man to be the pope and at the same time to maintain the Church's teaching on the papacy and the indefectibility and infallibility of the Church.

The seminaries operated by sedevacantist bishops are overflowing with young men being called to the priesthood to offer the true sacrifice of the Mass and to teach and promulgate the traditional Catholic Faith.
 
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