Has the Church Replaced Israel ?

brightfame52

Well-known member
Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

No, The Church has always been Israel, but not Israel after the flesh, or the physical nation of Israel See within the physical nation of Israel was always a remnant according to the election of Grace, which is also Israel. Now under the Old Covenant Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ was mostly comprised of saved jewish Christians. They would usually be persecuted by the non christian jews in the nation Matt 5:12


Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets[Believers in Crist] which were before you.

Lk 13:34



O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Now under the New Covenant, Body of Christ Israel the election of Grace has been multiplied by saving and grafting in multitudes into Spiritual Israel, which is still the Body of Christ ! So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
When Paul wrote Rom 11:25-27


For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins

The All Israel that shall be saved is not the physical nation of Israel, but Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ, comprised of Abrahams Spiritual seed of promise, consisting of jews and gentiles. So in this manner, by the calling in of the Gentile Elect, Sheep together with the jew elct sheep, all Israel shall be saved, the Body of Christ !
 

robycop3

Active member
When Paul wrote Rom 11:25-27


For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins

The All Israel that shall be saved is not the physical nation of Israel, but Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ, comprised of Abrahams Spiritual seed of promise, consisting of jews and gentiles. So in this manner, by the calling in of the Gentile Elect, Sheep together with the jew elct sheep, all Israel shall be saved, the Body of Christ !
I believe you should read the Scriptures more closely. God has made promises specific to literal Judah & Israel.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Right, but spiritual Israel does NOT replace literal Israel in God's plan.
I know nothing about any other plans. This thread is about Israel that God promised to save Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

This Israel is the Body of Christ.

Read the op
 

robycop3

Active member
I know nothing about any other plans. This thread is about Israel that God promised to save Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

This Israel is the Body of Christ.

Read the op
I know nothing about any other plans. This thread is about Israel that God promised to save Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

This Israel is the Body of Christ.

Read the op
Please read Ezekiel 37 about the famous vision of the dry bones, etc. that represented the whole House of Israel.

Again, the true Church does NOT replace literal Israel in prophecy.
 

rakovsky

Member
The answer is that the Church "replaced" Israel in some ways but did not replace Israel in other ways.

The Church replaced pre-1st century AD ancient Israel in the sense of being the community with the full relationship with God in the last 2000 years.
The Church did not replace ancient Israel in the sense of being a particular earthly political nation.
 

robycop3

Active member
The answer is that the Church "replaced" Israel in some ways but did not replace Israel in other ways.

The Church replaced pre-1st century AD ancient Israel in the sense of being the community with the full relationship with God in the last 2000 years.
The Church did not replace ancient Israel in the sense of being a particular earthly political nation.
Nor has the Church replaced Israel & Judah in prophecy.
 

rakovsky

Member
Nor has the Church replaced Israel & Judah in prophecy.
The Church replaces Israel in prophecy when the prophecy is talking about Abraham's or Jacob's descendants in a spiritual sense, due to the fact that certainly according to Christianity, the Church are their descendants in a spiritual sense. One reason is that someone can become part of Israel, ie a descendant of Jacob, through conversion. As a result, descent here at least includes spiritual descent. Paul goes into this in Galatians and in Romans, like when he says in Romans 9:
7. Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.” 8. So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

In that case, Paul was talking about the prophecies made about Abraham's descendants, but this also works when it comes to Jacob's descendants, as conversion to Judaism made one belong to Israel.

And then there is the place in Isaiah 44 where it prophecies:
"Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. ... One shall say, I am the LORD'S; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel."
In this passage, God tells Jacob and Israel a prophecy that another shall call himself by the name of Jacob and another will call himself Israel as a surname.
I would want to study this passage more to have a better idea of what it says in Chp. 44. But in any case in Isaiah 49 an identity shift is more clear because God says that you are my Servant Israel, and that it is the Servant's job to gather Israel. This is a traditional task of the Messiah, and these words also distinguish the Servant from Israel. The chapter also talks about the Servant (whom Christians see as Christ) being a light to the nations.

So if the Servant is the Messiah in the prophecy, then it appears that such prophecies may also apply to Christians who are considered Christ's descendants like in the issue of Isaiah 53 where it asks "Who can speak of his offspring, for he was cut off", and then it says that the Servant will "see seed". This contradiction about the Servant's descendants is explained a bit more in Isaiah 54 where it says that the barren woman can have more children than a fertile one. The idea is that the Messiah's spiritual offspring are his offspring.

So this would be an example where the Church, the community of the Messiah and His spiritual offspring, play a role that the prophecy series of Isaiah 49-53 is also identifying as "Israel".
 

Newbirth

Member
Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

No, The Church has always been Israel, but not Israel after the flesh, or the physical nation of Israel See within the physical nation of Israel was always a remnant according to the election of Grace, which is also Israel. Now under the Old Covenant Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ was mostly comprised of saved jewish Christians. They would usually be persecuted by the non christian jews in the nation Matt 5:12


Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets[Believers in Crist] which were before you.

Lk 13:34



O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Now under the New Covenant, Body of Christ Israel the election of Grace has been multiplied by saving and grafting in multitudes into Spiritual Israel, which is still the Body of Christ ! So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.
In this dispensation, God only recognizes the body of Christ. Isreal does not exist as a nation to God in these times, they have been scattered and shall be led away captive into all nations.
Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Eph 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
In this dispensation, God only recognizes the body of Christ. Isreal does not exist as a nation to God in these times, they have been scattered and shall be led away captive into all nations.
Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Eph 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The Church is Israel , The Israel God promised to save in the Lord Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end
 

Newbirth

Member
When Paul wrote Rom 11:25-27


For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins
I don't see how that ties in with your question. Clearly, there are two distinct groups. Jews and Gentiles. Jews are the children of Israel and Gentiles are the other nations. In this dispensation, God recognizes both as one.
Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Eph 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The All Israel that shall be saved is not the physical nation of Israel, but Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ, comprised of Abrahams Spiritual seed of promise, consisting of jews and gentiles. So in this manner, by the calling in of the Gentile Elect, Sheep together with the jew elct sheep, all Israel shall be saved, the Body of Christ !
Nope there is a remnant to represent Israel...144000 twelve thousand from each tribe, this is clearly stated in Rev 7
 

Newbirth

Member
The Church is Israel , The Israel God promised to save in the Lord Isa 45:17
That does not say the church is Israel, which is your claim. If you are claiming that the church is Israel then show me where it says so.
But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end
Rev 7 shows twelve tribes of Israel each represented by twelve thousand people being saved.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I don't see how that ties in with your question. Clearly, there are two distinct groups. Jews and Gentiles. Jews are the children of Israel and Gentiles are the other nations. In this dispensation, God recognizes both as one.
Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Eph 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


Nope there is a remnant to represent Israel...144000 twelve thousand from each tribe, this is clearly stated in Rev 7
That's the Church !
 

Newbirth

Member
That's the Church !
This is the church...
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
This is Israel
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The Church replaces Israel in prophecy when the prophecy is talking about Abraham's or Jacob's descendants in a spiritual sense, due to the fact that certainly according to Christianity, the Church are their descendants in a spiritual sense. One reason is that someone can become part of Israel, ie a descendant of Jacob, through conversion. As a result, descent here at least includes spiritual descent. Paul goes into this in Galatians and in Romans, like when he says in Romans 9:


In that case, Paul was talking about the prophecies made about Abraham's descendants, but this also works when it comes to Jacob's descendants, as conversion to Judaism made one belong to Israel.

And then there is the place in Isaiah 44 where it prophecies:

In this passage, God tells Jacob and Israel a prophecy that another shall call himself by the name of Jacob and another will call himself Israel as a surname.
I would want to study this passage more to have a better idea of what it says in Chp. 44. But in any case in Isaiah 49 an identity shift is more clear because God says that you are my Servant Israel, and that it is the Servant's job to gather Israel. This is a traditional task of the Messiah, and these words also distinguish the Servant from Israel. The chapter also talks about the Servant (whom Christians see as Christ) being a light to the nations.

So if the Servant is the Messiah in the prophecy, then it appears that such prophecies may also apply to Christians who are considered Christ's descendants like in the issue of Isaiah 53 where it asks "Who can speak of his offspring, for he was cut off", and then it says that the Servant will "see seed". This contradiction about the Servant's descendants is explained a bit more in Isaiah 54 where it says that the barren woman can have more children than a fertile one. The idea is that the Messiah's spiritual offspring are his offspring.

So this would be an example where the Church, the community of the Messiah and His spiritual offspring, play a role that the prophecy series of Isaiah 49-53 is also identifying as "Israel".
I may have to read this a couple more times but I believe it is pretty sound! I know in Isa 49:1-3 Christ is identified as Israel, and so that would make his body the church whom he is one with Israel . Do you see what I am saying?
 

rakovsky

Member
People on the thread should know a simple history of the term "replacement" for Israel vs the Church. What happened was that in the 1970's, a "liberal Christian Zionist" named Roy Eckardt noted that the Biblical view is that the Church replaces Israel as the community with the right relationship with God. This view would mean that if you lived in 1000 BC and wanted the right basic theology, you would go to Israel to find it, but if you want to find it today, you would just go to the Church. He called this "replacement theology."

Eckardt, being a "liberal Christian Zionist", said that this NT idea, "replacement theology" was wrong and he said that instead both communities, the Church and the rabbis who reject the Church, have the right relationship with God. He said that in fact the Church does not replace Israel because both communities are right. So he created the term "replacement theology" to mean the New Testament theology about the Church, but he also disagreed with this idea.

So the result is that today the term "replacement theology" has a bad connotation. But most people don't realize that it was meant to be a negative label for the New Testament idea.
 
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