Has the Church Replaced Israel ?

Newbirth

Active member
We see that in Tanakh there are verses depicting walls of cities reaching to the heavens, Genesis 11:4, Jeremiah 51:53, Deut 9:1; and animals reaching the heavens/making their nests in the heavens, Obadiah 1:4, Proverbs 30:19; and clouds and thunder in the heavens, Psalm 77:17, Psalm 147:8, 1 Kings 18:45; and of course Mount Sinai with fire reaching the heavens, Deut 4:11.

Genesis 11:4
Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth."

Jeremiah 51:53
Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, And though she should fortify the height of her strength, Yet from Me shall spoilers come unto her, saith the LORD.

Deut 9:1
Hear, Israel: You are now about to cross the Jordan to go in and dispossess nations greater and stronger than you, with large cities that have walls up to the sky.

Obadiah 1:4
Though you soar like the eagle and make your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down," declares the LORD.

Proverbs 30:19
the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a young woman.

Psalm 77:17
The clouds poured down water, the heavens resounded with thunder; your arrows flashed back and forth.

Psalm 147:8
He covers the sky with clouds; he supplies the earth with rain and makes grass grow on the hills.

1 Kings 18:45
Meanwhile, the sky grew black with clouds, the wind rose, a heavy rain started falling and Ahab rode off to Jezreel.

Deut 4:11
You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness.

You prove my point. The heavens are above, and these verses prove my point. The mountains reach the heavens.

Did you figure out what shamayim means?
you are just exposing your ignorance of the scripture sir...the verses are simply referring to up/ high up and very high up. The mountain reaches high up. They do not touch the firmament...do you know what firmament means?
shamayim does not mean firmament.
Deut 4:9,12, shows at the revelation at Sinai, God said He has no physical form and to teach that to our children.
again your ignorance is impeccable...12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
Just because you hear a voice and see no form does not me the one speaking has no form...If I speak to you over the phone and you hear me but cannot see me does that mean I have no form? The wind has no form yet it occupies space therefore it is physical. Your argument is based on ignorance.
We also see Isaiah says the same on Isaiah 40:18,25;46:5, where demut for likeness is used. Damah is the root for physical likeness or comparison, blood, and adam/man a gradational variant.
that is because no one has seen God full shape...It does not mean that God cannot be seen...
Exodus 33:23
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
You'd have to explain who created your physical god.
I never said anyone created God. You have to explain how Moses can see God's back parts since you believe that God cannot be seen.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
passed on what? you are confused...God made a man from the dust of the earth and made a woman from the man. What she passes she got from the man in the first place?
So, for you're argument Eve is defiled and passes this down regardless. Either from Adam or through her own sin. The same happens with Mary to Jesus. There's no escaping this.
Eve was taken from Adam before he sinned sir. Adam passes on sin. Eve was deceived but Adam was deliberate and disobeyed God's command. When confronted he blamed God.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Adam passed on his defiled seed both X and Y to his children. You don't know how chromosomes work...
They both sinned. If Adam genetically changed as a result of sin, then so did any genetic material given to Eve. Mary passes on defiled "X" to Jesus. Check mate.
You implied that Egypt was destroyed. These are your words...Egypt wasn't in the wilderness with Israel, but they did get wiped out at the Red Sea. No one was left to write anything.
Yes, during Israel's travels in the desert there were no other nations traveling with them to record things. The Egyptian Army was destroyed at the Red Sea. Quite different than Jesus' circumstances within Rome occupied land.

are you saying that God hates liars is false?
Read what I said.
Look at the NT
Nothing there. Show me some proof.
but it does not say they were not healed...that is a lie
I never said they were healed and neither does the NT. It does say Thomas saw his wounds after the resurrection.
Females carry their father's and mother's X but pass on the mother's X
And the mother's carry genetic defects from both parents. Check mate.
It's a ritual...God commanding a ritual does not make it more than a ritual.
A commandment still.
1 Sam 16:
10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The Lord hath not chosen these.

11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.
Here Jesse has eight sons...
1 Chr 2:
13 And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third,

14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth,

15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh:
Here Jesse has only seven
that is conflicting, If you reject the NT on that evidence then you must reject David's lineage also.
Sorry, stop diverting and solve your dilemma.
You already stated that the women lineage is not recorded..
So you agree.
help me? with what? You are claiming that there are magic verses in the bible.
Show where God gave His Y chromosome to Jesus. Are you a Mormon?
You already saw them, if you have a problem then you should gave a problem with David. Please show David's mother lineage...
No, I've asked you to prove Jesus' lineage. Can you prove Mary's lineage and Joseph's,
You are claiming that Lot bowed down to men who represented God...High priest represents God therefore you should bow down to your high priests.
Show me precedent for it.
I point you to the scriptures which you apparently don't read.
I've shown you Matt and Luke and 1 Chronicles 1-3, which you seem to not be able to use to defend your opinions on Jesus.
when you defend David being both the seven and eight son of Jesse
Sure. My question was in the queue first. Then I'll answer.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
you are just exposing your ignorance of the scripture sir...the verses are simply referring to up/ high up and very high up. The mountain reaches high up. They do not touch the firmament...do you know what firmament means?
The mountains reach shamayim. Your focus was heavens, shamayim. Don't shift goal posts. Define firmament, raqia.
shamayim does not mean firmament.
It means heavens so you lost your original argument.
again your ignorance is impeccable...12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
Just because you hear a voice and see no form does not me the one speaking has no form...If I speak to you over the phone and you hear me but cannot see me does that mean I have no form? The wind has no form yet it occupies space therefore it is physical. Your argument is based on ignorance.
It does mean He has no form when He says to teach what we saw to our children. And Isaiah teaches the same.
that is because no one has seen God full shape...It does not mean that God cannot be seen...
Exodus 33:23
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
God's back is a metaphor for mercy and forgiveness, Isaiah 38:17, Exodus 34:6-7. Panim is used for presence, face, etc., in Exodus 33:14-23. You cannot see God's presence, and you cannot see His back or face.

Please tell me who created your god? Everything has a start. Are you a Mormon?
I never said anyone created God. You have to explain how Moses can see God's back parts since you believe that God cannot be seen.
See above. Do you believe God is physical in any sense? If so, you must answer who created your god.

Are you a Mormon?

Just because you hear a voice and see no form does not me the one speaking has no form...If I speak to you over the phone and you hear me but cannot see me does that mean I have no form? The wind has no form yet it occupies space therefore it is physical. Your argument is based on ignorance.
The wind has form, atoms, which you feel when the wind blows. You're ignorant about form, taking shape, etc. Gases take the shape of whatever contains it. Is this your idea of God?

God said He has no form, I didn't say it. Isaiah said the same.
 
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Newbirth

Active member
So, for you're argument Eve is defiled and passes this down regardless. Either from Adam or through her own sin. The same happens with Mary to Jesus. There's no escaping this.
What is your charge of sin to Eve?
They both sinned. If Adam genetically changed as a result of sin, then so did any genetic material given to Eve. Mary passes on defiled "X" to Jesus. Check mate.
You are ignorant sir, Eve was taken out from Adam before he disobeyed God.
Yes, during Israel's travels in the desert there were no other nations traveling with them to record things. The Egyptian Army was destroyed at the Red Sea. Quite different than Jesus' circumstances within Rome occupied land.
You are exposing your willful ignorance...People were aware it has nothing to do with records
Read what I said.
you said what I wrote is false...
Nothing there. Show me some proof.
My proof is the same as your proof words in a book
I never said they were healed and neither does the NT. It does say Thomas saw his wounds after the resurrection.
to any intelligent person that would be a scar
And the mother's carry genetic defects from both parents. Check mate.
sin is not a genetic defect it is defilement by disobedience to God's command
A commandment still.
that is not my argument, I am saying that God commanded a ritual... somehow you are saying that a ritual is more than a ritual
Sorry, stop diverting and solve your dilemma.
I have none you are the one having a problem understanding
So you agree.
It's not that I agree, I find it disturbing that you are claiming that something does not exist yet you are asking me to find it.
Show where God gave His Y chromosome to Jesus. Are you a Mormon?
I don't have to, all I have to do is show that God created Adam. Since Jesus does not carry Adam's Y He gets it from God.
No, I've asked you to prove Jesus' lineage. Can you prove Mary's lineage and Joseph's,
It is in the scripture...that you don't accept it is your problem.
Show me precedent for it.
I don't have to show you anything it is your argument that Lot bowed down to men who represent God, therefore it follows that you should bow down to men who represent God eg your high priests
I've shown you Matt and Luke and 1 Chronicles 1-3, which you seem to not be able to use to defend your opinions on Jesus.
and I have shown you that David is child number seven and child number eight to the same man.
Sure. My question was in the queue first. Then I'll answer.
my answer would be the same as your answer to my question.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
What is your charge of sin to Eve?
She ate of the fruit. She disobeyed.
You are ignorant sir, Eve was taken out from Adam before he disobeyed God.
Doesn't matter. Anything related to him/seed/genetic material is impacted according to you.
You are exposing your willful ignorance...People were aware it has nothing to do with records
People were aware of what?
you said what I wrote is false...
I never said healed from his wounds.
My proof is the same as your proof words in a book
Your lineages don't jive, and Mary was sinful passing this on to Jesus. Its genetic.
to any intelligent person that would be a scar
You don't put fingers into a scar.
sin is not a genetic defect it is defilement by disobedience to God's command
That's what you've been saying. Are you changing your mind?
that is not my argument, I am saying that God commanded a ritual... somehow you are saying that a ritual is more than a ritual
Its a commandment.
I have none you are the one having a problem understanding
Nope, don't divert and provide your proof.
It's not that I agree, I find it disturbing that you are claiming that something does not exist yet you are asking me to find it.
It doesn't, not a legitimate lineage, nor evidence of God giving an Y chromosome to Jesus. I'm still waiting.
I don't have to, all I have to do is show that God created Adam. Since Jesus does not carry Adam's Y He gets it from God.
Show where God gave Jesus the Y. We know Adam was created. Its explicit. Sinful Mary gives Jesus her X. What are you going to do?
It is in the scripture...that you don't accept it is your problem.
Show me.
I don't have to show you anything it is your argument that Lot bowed down to men who represent God, therefore it follows that you should bow down to men who represent God eg your high priests
If the Bible says Lot did, then he did. Show me where we bow to a High Priest? We certainly bow to kings.
and I have shown you that David is child number seven and child number eight to the same man.
Answer my questions and don't dodge.
my answer would be the same as your answer to my question.
I've been asking a while. You're done, I'll give you an answer.

BTW, David's trace to Jesse is in tact. In both cases, no doubt.
 
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Newbirth

Active member
She ate of the fruit. She disobeyed.
disobeyed who?...
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

this is before God made woman

Doesn't matter. Anything related to him/seed/genetic material is impacted according to you.
not according to me according to your misunderstanding
People were aware of what?
try to keep up ...How did Rahab know what God did to the Egyptians?
I never said healed from his wounds.
You have a short memory ...this is about God hates liars... you said ...FALSE...
Your lineages don't jive, and Mary was sinful passing this on to Jesus. Its genetic.
How? Adam passes on his defilement of disobedience to his sons.
You don't put fingers into a scar.
your ignorance has gotten the better of you again...https://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/20-25.htm

That's what you've been saying. Are you changing your mind?
if it is what I have been saying how am I changing my mind by saying what I have been saying?
Its a commandment.
I am not disagreeing... I am saying the commandment is a ritual. Just as circumcision is a ritual.....
Nope, don't divert and provide your proof.
I already did ...Your ignorance and blindness keeps you from accepting
It doesn't, not a legitimate lineage, nor evidence of God giving an Y chromosome to Jesus. I'm still waiting.
It is impossible for the blind deaf and ignorant to see or understand
Show where God gave Jesus the Y. We know Adam was created. Its explicit. Sinful Mary gives Jesus her X. What are you going to do?
I already did...35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Mary is not passing on sin only Adam is

If the Bible says Lot did, then he did. Show me where we bow to a High Priest? We certainly bow to kings.
This is based on your argument sir...You claimed that Lot bowed to regular men who were represented, God. Your high priests are regular men who represent God... Do you bow to them? My question has nothing to do with kings...Just your high priests who represent God.
Answer my questions and don't dodge.
It is not a dodge they both have the same conditions...
I've been asking a while. You're done, I'll give you an answer.
No, you won't
BTW, David's trace to Jesse is in tact. In both cases, no doubt.
but he can't be both the seventh and the eighth sons can he...? Therefore the biblical record has an error...would you agree?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
disobeyed who?...
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

this is before God made woman
And yet she knew when confronted by the serpent. There is no excuse.
You have a short memory ...this is about God hates liars... you said ...FALSE...
I said God hates all sin.
How? Adam passes on his defilement of disobedience to his sons.
And Mary passes her personal sins defect to Jesus.
I am not disagreeing... I am saying the commandment is a ritual. Just as circumcision is a ritual.....
It's still a commandment, a requirement.
I already did ...Your ignorance and blindness keeps you from accepting
Nope. Where is your support?
I already did...35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Mary is not passing on sin only Adam is
Mary brought a sacrifice. She's a sinner. Jesus inherits her sin. There is no mention of fertilization, or a Y chromosome. Why are you making up stuff? BTW, overshadowed doesn't mean impregnate.
This is based on your argument sir...You claimed that Lot bowed to regular men who were represented, God. Your high priests are regular men who represent God... Do you bow to them? My question has nothing to do with kings...Just your high priests who represent God.
If there's a precedent there isn't an issue. Why do you ask? Does it matter? Where did I bring up Lot?
It is not a dodge they both have the same conditions...
No, David doesn't have a break in lineage to Jesse regardless if he is 7th or 8th. Jesus has several in his lineage, and two conflicting genealogies with 2 fathers.
but he can't be both the seventh and the eighth sons can he...? Therefore the biblical record has an error...would you agree?
No. I'll answer when you solve and answer your dilemma.

Besides you can't get around Mary passing on her sins, X, to Jesus.
 
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Newbirth

Active member
The mountains reach shamayim. Your focus was heavens, shamayim. Don't shift goal posts. Define firmament, raqia.
In my bible, God created the raqia/ firmament(extended surface) and called it shamayim/ sky/ heaven.
It means heavens so you lost your original argument.
No God called the raqia(extended surface), sky/ heaven ...What does God call the (extended surface) raqia? https://biblehub.com/lexicon/genesis/1-8.htm He does not call the shamayim/sky (extended surface) raqia. Know the difference a surface is tangible...therefore shamaym can also include the raqia you have to understand the context.
It does mean He has no form when He says to teach what we saw to our children. And Isaiah teaches the same.
Again you are wrong. If you saw no form you must teach you saw no form, to teach that God has no form is contrary to you saw no form.
God's back is a metaphor for mercy and forgiveness, Isaiah 38:17, Exodus 34:6-7. Panim is used for presence, face, etc., in Exodus 33:14-23. You cannot see God's presence, and you cannot see His back or face.
that is a silly argument...You seem not to be familiar with the scripture...Ex 33 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Clearly, God can be seen.
Please tell me who created your god? Everything has a start. Are you a Mormon?
Then your God has a start...you are saying everything has a start.
See above. Do you believe God is physical in any sense? If so, you must answer who created your god.
Are you claiming that God has no sense...physical have to do with senses.
Are you a Mormon?
nope...
The wind has form, atoms, which you feel when the wind blows.
God is described as a spirit/breath/wind is he not?
You're ignorant about form, taking shape, etc. Gases take the shape of whatever contains it. Is this your idea of God?
what are you talking about? if there is no container what is the shape of gas?
God said He has no form, I didn't say it. Isaiah said the same.
God never said he has no form. neither did Isaiah. You are the only one saying that. but since you are on this path...what is an Image? Didn't God make man in his image? An image can be seen. An image usually refer to a reflection of something visible.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
In my bible, God created the raqia/ firmament(extended surface) and called it shamayim/ sky/ heaven.
So, all the verses I've given you previously reference shamayim. So, my opinion is supported and founded in scripture.
No God called the raqia(extended surface), sky/ heaven ...What does God call the (extended surface) raqia? https://biblehub.com/lexicon/genesis/1-8.htm He does not call the shamayim/sky (extended surface) raqia. Know the difference a surface is tangible...therefore shamaym can also include the raqia you have to understand the context.
See above. You argued Heavens to start. You lost that argument. The difference between air/sky and water is tangible too. You lost the argument again.
Again you are wrong. If you saw no form you must teach you saw no form, to teach that God has no form is contrary to you saw no form.
We teach no form because He has no form. Isaiah says the same thing. Are you a mormon?
that is a silly argument...You seem not to be familiar with the scripture...Ex 33 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Clearly, God can be seen.
Because He has no form, no physical presence to speak of. You don't believe in a godman, which would mean a physical god, so why are you even arguing this point?

Then your God has a start...you are saying everything has a start.
Everything physical does. Did your god originate as a physical being?
Are you claiming that God has no sense...physical have to do with senses.
Sense of what? The physical sense of smell, touch, taste, hearing, seeing? No. A being that knows all things doesn't have to experience these things.
Did your god originate as a physical god?
God is described as a spirit/breath/wind is he not?
A spirit, yes. But, a different meaning and use of the word. Not a physical meaning.

what are you talking about? if there is no container what is the shape of gas?
Gas has a molecular shape visible under microscope. It has a volume when contained.

God never said he has no form. neither did Isaiah. You are the only one saying that. but since you are on this path...what is an Image? Didn't God make man in his image? An image can be seen. An image usually refer to a reflection of something visible.
He said He has no physical form. We are in the image of God in terms of thought, intellectual perception, which the rest of creation on earth, is incapable of.
 
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Newbirth

Active member
And yet she knew when confronted by the serpent. There is no excuse.
you didn't read the verse, did you?
I said God hates all sin.
but you wrote false when I wrote God hates liars...
And Mary passes her personal sins defect to Jesus.
nope, there is no personal sin passed on from Mary...Adam defiled himself directly disobeying God
It's still a commandment, a requirement.
yes and it's still a ritual... a command and a requirement do not change a ritual into anything else.
Nope. Where is your support?
your responses
Mary brought a sacrifice. She's a sinner.
yes
Jesus inherits her sin.
nope
There is no mention of fertilization, or a Y chromosome. Why are you making up stuff?
you don't know how babies are born
BTW, overshadowed doesn't mean impregnate.
please explain what you think this means....
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
If there's a precedent there isn't an issue. Why do you ask? Does it matter? Where did I bring up Lot?
I brought up Lot because you believe angels are just ordinary men...So I asked if Low would bow to an ordinary man. You said that he would bow to a man who represents God...Then I asked you if you would bow to your high priest who represents God...You are yet to answer.
No, David doesn't have a break in lineage to Jesse regardless if he is 7th or 8th. Jesus has several in his lineage, and two conflicting genealogies with 2 fathers.
My issue is if there is an error in the OT scripture since both cannot be true.
No. I'll answer when you solve and answer your dilemma.
I don't have a dilemma you have. There is an error in the OT...
Besides you can't get around Mary passing on her sins, X, to Jesus.
Adam is responsible for sin, not Mary..
 

Newbirth

Active member
So, all the verses I've given you previously reference shamayim. So, my opinion is supported and founded in scripture.
no, it is founded in ignorance...
See above. You argued Heavens to start. You lost that argument. The difference between air/sky and water is tangible too. You lost the argument again.
Your claim is that heaven, air, sky, God, his throne are not tangible, you are forgetting your argument.
We teach no form because He has no form. Isaiah says the same thing. Are you a mormon?
yet you cannot show where the scripture says "God has no form.''
Because He has no form, no physical presence to speak of. You don't believe in a godman, which would mean a physical god, so why are you even arguing this point?
Show me where the scripture specifically stated that God has no form.
Everything physical does. Did your god originate as a physical being?
I know that he made man in His Image...an image must have form resembling what we are an image of. Are you made in the image of God? If God has no form then you should have no form either.
.
Sense of what? The physical sense of smell, touch, taste, hearing, seeing? No. A being that knows all things doesn't have to experience these things.
If he does not experience how does he know?
Did your god originate as a physical god?
I don't know He didn't say
A spirit, yes. But, a different meaning and use of the word. Not a physical meaning.
You know that you are not making any sense, right?
Gas has a molecular shape visible under microscope. It has a volume when contained.
so what is the shape of gas sir?
He said He has no physical form.
that is a lie, Nowhere did God say that ...if he did you would have posted the exact quote.
We are in the image of God in terms of thought, intellectual perception, which the rest of creation on earth, is incapable of.
Are you serious? How is it that you are incapable of intellectual perception? You don't know what tselem means...
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
you didn't read the verse, did you?
Did she sin or not?
but you wrote false when I wrote God hates liars...
You only considered lying. God hates all sin. Are you that petty?
nope, there is no personal sin passed on from Mary...Adam defiled himself directly disobeying God
Sure is. You even said the mother's X gets passed on. And that would be a defective gene. Eve was a sinner and so was Jesus' mommy, and so was Jesus, born defective.
yes and it's still a ritual... a command and a requirement do not change a ritual into anything else.
Its a commandment.
please explain what you think this means....
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Overshadowed doesn't mean impregnated, nor seed. Look up the Greek.
I brought up Lot because you believe angels are just ordinary men...So I asked if Low would bow to an ordinary man. You said that he would bow to a man who represents God...Then I asked you if you would bow to your high priest who represents God...You are yet to answer.
Right you brought it up, not me. So why did you push that falsehood? I told you there's no issue with bowing to someone representing God, like as evident with kings. And Lot bowed to an angel representing God.
My issue is if there is an error in the OT scripture since both cannot be true.
There's not an error. Answer your problem with Jesus' lineage or just admit he can't be Messiah.
I don't have a dilemma you have. There is an error in the OT...
No problem on my end.
Adam is responsible for sin, not Mary..
Mary sinned first. Nothing in Tanakh says otherwise. And Mary sinned on her own and brought her sacrifice after Jesus was born. Jesus inherited her sinful nature. There's no escaping your problem.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
no, it is founded in ignorance...
You said the firmament is the heavens. I've proven my point.
Your claim is that heaven, air, sky, God, his throne are not tangible, you are forgetting your argument.
I said God is not physical nor his throne. That has nothing to do with what is physical, tangible, as the heavens and the earth, and the waters.
yet you cannot show where the scripture says "God has no form.''
I did already. Besides, Isaiah says God created all. He can't very well create all if He is physical Himself. It's basic reasoning.
Show me where the scripture specifically stated that God has no form.
I gave it to you.
I know that he made man in His Image...an image must have form resembling what we are an image of. Are you made in the image of God? If God has no form then you should have no form either.
Such a physical view of things would mean your god is both male and female, since mankind was made in His image. Is your god a hermaphrodite?

Toar is used for form in Hebrew in terms of shape, used of Joseph, Genesis 39:6, or for form of children, Judges 8:18. Or something made, Isaiah 44:13. Not applicable to God.

Tzelem is used for specific forms, the essence of a thing. In Psalm 43:20, we see God despises their sinful form, tzelem, essence, Psalm 73:20. In Genesis 1:27, tzelem is used with respect to intellectual perception.

Tavnit, used for constructing a thing, Exodus 25:9, or a pattern. Physical form, Ezekiel 8:3. Basically shapes. Doesn't apply to God.

Temunah is used of thoughts, perception, Job 4:13. Shapes and forms, Deut 4:15,16.
If he does not experience how does he know?
Because God knows all. Tanakh says so.

I don't know He didn't say
So, you have no opinion on the matter? You can't think? What would it mean for your god to be in essence physical? How do you answer an atheist that says the universe is eternal?
You know that you are not making any sense, right?
Do you understand homonyms?
Spirit is used of God in the sense of desire, will, intention, prophecy. Not physical breath, wind, air.
so what is the shape of gas sir?
You can find the molecular shape online for gases, or take a chemistry class.
that is a lie, Nowhere did God say that ...if he did you would have posted the exact quote.
I did. Deut 4:9,12; Isaiah 40:18,25;46:5.
Are you serious? How is it that you are incapable of intellectual perception? You don't know what tselem means...
See above.
 
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Newbirth

Active member
Did she sin or not?
of course, she did but she does not pass it on. Only Adam does.
You only considered lying. God hates all sin. Are you that petty?
then God must also be petty...
Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Sure is. You even said the mother's X gets passed on. And that would be a defective gene. Eve was a sinner and so was Jesus' mommy, and so was Jesus, born defective.
you lack understanding...only Adam passes on his defilement.
Its a commandment.
Yep a ritual
Overshadowed doesn't mean impregnated, nor seed. Look up the Greek.
but it does cause a child to be born in the passage...35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Only a blind ignorant person cannot see it.
Right you brought it up, not me. So why did you push that falsehood? I told you there's no issue with bowing to someone representing God, like as evident with kings. And Lot bowed to an angel representing God.
I asked you about your high priests...you have no king in Israel at this time...
There's not an error. Answer your problem with Jesus' lineage or just admit he can't be Messiah.
then David was born twice...
No problem on my end.
you can't see it
Mary sinned first.
So what? She did not get a direct command from God. Nothing in the Tanakh says she got a direct command from God
Nothing in Tanakh says otherwise.
The Tanakh does not say she disobeyed God. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
And Mary sinned on her own and brought her sacrifice after Jesus was born.
Mary did what was required of every Jewish woman after childbirth.
Jesus inherited her sinful nature. There's no escaping your problem.
Adam is the only one who passes on a defiled nature by directly disobeying God...
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
of course, she did but she does not pass it on. Only Adam does.
Nothing in Tanakh supports you. Would an unmarried pregnant woman pass that sin to her son? Your argument and your X says yes.
Please read https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/which-x-chromosome-mom. Here's a bit:

If a woman has two X chromosomes, how do we know which X chromosome each of her offspring has? She received one X from her mother and one X from her father. Will her offspring receive the X from her mother or the X from her father? Is there a 50/50 chance of either? Or does it depend upon the offspring's sex- i.e. females receive X chromosome donated from grandmother, males receive X chromosome donated from grandfather? Do we know for sure?

- A curious adult from Oklahoma
March 23, 2016
Believe it or not, a woman actually passes some of each of her X’s to her kids. And each child gets different parts of each X.
So whether you are a boy or a girl, you got some of your maternal grandma’s X and some of your maternal grandpa’s (Adam) X. You have a unique combination of the two of them.

It is a different story for the DNA from dad. Dad has an X and a Y, and he passes one or the other to a child virtually unchanged. If he passes an X, he has a daughter, and if he passes a Y, he has a son.
For the rest of the answer, I’ll go over why X’s from mom are passed down differently than X’s from dad. As you’ll see, it has to do with something called recombination.
...

So, you can't escape Jesus received defective, sinful genes from grandpa. Check mate!
then God must also be petty...
Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
I said all sins. You're petty to focus on one.
you lack understanding...only Adam passes on his defilement.
You already admitted Eve sinned. And she realized her sin and hid, Genesis 3:7-8.
Yep a ritual
And a commandment. So Jesus would have to be anointed which he wasn't.
but it does cause a child to be born in the passage...35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Only a blind ignorant person cannot see it.
No, nothing says the child became pregnant from the overshadowing. Mary was sinful. So was her seed.
I asked you about your high priests...you have no king in Israel at this time...
Jeremiah 33:17-23.
then David was born twice...
I have an answer when you have yours.
you can't see it
I'm not the one with conflicting genealogies for Jesus. That's your baby. And Jesus inherited the defiled X from Mary. You've already admitted this.
So what? She did not get a direct command from God. Nothing in the Tanakh says she got a direct command from God
Neither have the Jews today. Yours is a lame excuse. She sinned. You admitted to it.
The Tanakh does not say she disobeyed God. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
It's evident. She was cursed on her own. That's what sin does.
Mary did what was required of every Jewish woman after childbirth.
And she sinned. Jesus inherited it.
Adam is the only one who passes on a defiled nature by directly disobeying God...
No, both parents would. You're wilfully ignorant. You said mommy passes the defiled X. The fact that women are punished for their own sins shows the ridiculousness of your argument.
 
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Newbirth

Active member
You said the firmament is the heavens. I've proven my point.
You haven't proven anything except your ignorance...firmament is an expanded surface...
I said God is not physical nor his throne.
then your God is a figment of your imagination
That has nothing to do with what is physical, tangible, as the heavens and the earth, and the waters.
then it only has to do with your imagination
I did already. Besides, Isaiah says God created all. He can't very well create all if He is physical Himself. It's basic reasoning.
Then Your God is nothing...
I gave it to you.
No, you didn't you posted a verse saying they heard but saw no form which they must teach. That does not say God says he has no form...
Such a physical view of things would mean your god is both male and female, since mankind was made in His image. Is your god a hermaphrodite?
Again you are showing your ignorance...God Made a man in his image from the dust of the earth. From a part of that man, he made a woman. Nowhere does it say God made a hermaphrodite.
Toar is used for form in Hebrew in terms of shape, used of Joseph, Genesis 39:6, or for form of children, Judges 8:18. Or something made, Isaiah 44:13. Not applicable to God.
Again you are showing your ignorance....Genesis 1 is referring to a mirror image you can't compare that to the context of beauty in Genesis 39. What makes it even more ridiculous is if God has no shape or form then man wouldn't have any either.
Tzelem is used for specific forms, the essence of a thing. In Psalm 43:20, we see God despises their sinful form, tzelem, essence,
nope Can't find Psalms 43:20
Psalm 73:20.
20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
Clearly, it is referring to what one sees when he awakens...you are talking rubbish
In Genesis 1:27, tzelem is used with respect to intellectual perception.
in genesis 1:27 it is a reflection of what is seen...what is not seen has no image.
Because God knows all. Tanakh says so.
yes that is not in question...what is in question is your ignorance
So, you have no opinion on the matter? You can't think? What would it mean for your god to be in essence physical?
Does not change anything. Air, wind and breath are physical. God is spirit/ breath.
How do you answer an atheist that says the universe is eternal?
I say the fool hath said in his heart there is no God.
Do you understand homonyms?
you should be asking yourself that question
Spirit is used of God in the sense of desire, will, intention, prophecy. Not physical breath, wind, air.
So what is God to you? just an arbitrary sense of desire? a will just floating around? an isolated intention? prophecy waiting to happen?
You can find the molecular shape online for gases, or take a chemistry class.
since you have found it share the info, what is the shape of gas? as far as I know gas has no definite shape....
I did. Deut 4:9,12; Isaiah 40:18,25;46:5.

See above.
nowhere does God say...I have no shape...
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You haven't proven anything except your ignorance...firmament is an expanded surface...
Look up synonyms for firmament. You'll find sky and heaven.
then your God is a figment of your imagination
He's real. He just doesn't impregnate women like in Greek mythology. Is that what your god did to Mary and commuted adultery with a married woman?
then it only has to do with your imagination
I'm not the one shifting from heavens to firmament. That's your game.
Then Your God is nothing...
Nothing physical. Who created your god?
No, you didn't you posted a verse saying they heard but saw no form which they must teach. That does not say God says he has no form...
It sure does. Who created your god, when was he born? Does he eat, sleep, and relieve himself like false gods do?

1 Kings 18:27
At noon Elijah started making fun of them: "Pray louder! He is a god! Maybe he is day-dreaming or relieving himself, or perhaps he's gone off on a trip! Or maybe he's sleeping, and you've got to wake him up!"

I know you've said God is not a man, and it's in Tanakh. Have you changed your mind?
Again you are showing your ignorance...God Made a man in his image from the dust of the earth. From a part of that man, he made a woman. Nowhere does it say God made a hermaphrodite.
That's what you believe in. A physical god that used his physical image to create mankind. A he-she.
Again you are showing your ignorance....Genesis 1 is referring to a mirror image you can't compare that to the context of beauty in Genesis 39. What makes it even more ridiculous is if God has no shape or form then man wouldn't have any either.
I never said he had a physical shape or form. Stay focused. You must be a mormon.
nope Can't find Psalms 43:20
yep, should have been Psalm 73:20.;
20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
Clearly, it is referring to what one sees when he awakens...you are talking rubbish
Look up the Hebrew. It shouldn't be hard for you.
in genesis 1:27 it is a reflection of what is seen...what is not seen has no image.
No. God thinks, we think, mercy, forgiveness, etc.
yes that is not in question...what is in question is your ignorance
Why is it that I knew God knows all and you were questioning it?
Does not change anything. Air, wind and breath are physical. God is spirit/ breath.
No. Spirit is also will, desire, etc. That isn't physical.
I say the fool hath said in his heart there is no God.
Yes, the fool says that.
you should be asking yourself that question
I'm asking you.
So what is God to you? just an arbitrary sense of desire? a will just floating around? an isolated intention? prophecy waiting to happen?
God is merciful, good, etc. He said so. Are you mormon. Who created your god? Please explain how your physical god can be said to have created everything and yet be created himself?

Isaiah 44:24
This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,

Since you believe in a physical god, explain how he made himself?

since you have found it share the info, what is the shape of gas? as far as I know gas has no definite shape....
Like I said. Search for a specific gas, find it's geometric shape at a molecular level, study some chemistry. Gases take on the shape of its container. kind of like liquids in a cup.
nowhere does God say...I have no shape...
Who created your god?
 
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GeneZ

Active member
So, for you're argument Eve is defiled and passes this down regardless. Either from Adam or through her own sin. The same happens with Mary to Jesus. There's no escaping this.
Genesis 3:15 is the escape hatch.

The Lord told them after the fall that it would be by the woman's ovum that the Messiah would be born. Not the male's seed.

Its the male sperm that causes the sin nature to be passed down. Regardless to the fact Mary was also a sinner. Mary inherited her sin nature from her father, not her mother. Yes, even the town hooker God could have used to produce a sinless body for Jesus. But, God chose for Jesus to have righteous parents.

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Genesis 3:15

When man fell? Fallen man took on the characteristics of Satan. Hence..."his seed." Like father, like son. Fallen unregenerate men began to behave is akin to Satan and the fallen angels. Its one reason God allowed for the fall. Unrestrained men are liars by nature and in their hearts they murder. Just look at the mess Moses had to contend with for forty years in the wilderness. Men without retsraint will be overtly sinful liars.


........
 

e v e

Well-known member
Look up synonyms for firmament. You'll find sky and heaven.

He's real. He just doesn't impregnate women like in Greek mythology. Is that what your god did to Mary and commuted adultery with a married woman?

I'm not the one shifting from heavens to firmament. That's your game.

Nothing physical. Who created your god?

It sure does. Who created your god, when was he born? Does he eat, sleep, and relieve himself like false gods do?

1 Kings 18:27
At noon Elijah started making fun of them: "Pray louder! He is a god! Maybe he is day-dreaming or relieving himself, or perhaps he's gone off on a trip! Or maybe he's sleeping, and you've got to wake him up!"

I know you've said God is not a man, and it's in Tanakh. Have you changed your mind?

That's what you believe in. A physical god that used his physical image to create mankind. A he-she.

I never said he had a physical shape or form. Stay focused. You must be a mormon.

yep, should have been Psalm 73:20.;

Look up the Hebrew. It shouldn't be hard for you.

No. God thinks, we think, mercy, forgiveness, etc.

Why is it that I knew God knows all and you were questioning it?

No. Spirit is also will, desire, etc. That isn't physical.

Yes, the fool says that.

I'm asking you.

God is merciful, good, etc. He said so. Are you mormon. Who created your god? Please explain how your physical god can be said to have created everything and yet be created himself?

Isaiah 44:24
This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,

Since you believe in a physical god, explain how he made himself?


Like I said. Search for a specific gas, find it's geometric shape at a molecular level, study some chemistry. Gases take on the shape of its container. kind of like liquids in a cup.

Who created your god?


what a sleight of hand this post
 
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