Has the overton window, the window of whats normal and whats mainstream shifted left in the last 13 years?

john james

Well-known member
Has the overton window, the window of whats normal and whats mainstream shifted left in the last 13 years?

Some say that it has happened because some people indoctrinated young adults in the universities with bad liberalism. And when they graduated, instead of the U.S. changing them, they changed the U.S.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Has the overton window, the window of whats normal and whats mainstream shifted left in the last 13 years?
Probably over a much longer time frame than that. There has been a steady move in the direction of liberalisation, freedom and equality for decades if not centuries. You could call this a shift to the left if you wish. It is certainly a shift.
Some say that it has happened because some people indoctrinated young adults in the universities with bad liberalism. And when they graduated, instead of the U.S. changing them, they changed the U.S.
I think it would be wrong to assume that there is one single cause. If you want a major factor then I would say the growth of information. People now know what is happening in their country and can compare it with what happens in other countries. All manner of information is at our fingertips. I would agree that young people tend to drive change. Is this a bad thing?
 

Ignatius

Active member
Has the overton window, the window of whats normal and whats mainstream shifted left in the last 13 years?

Some say that it has happened because some people indoctrinated young adults in the universities with bad liberalism. And when they graduated, instead of the U.S. changing them, they changed the U.S.
Yes because they were taught to think their opinion matters.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Probably over a much longer time frame than that. There has been a steady move in the direction of liberalisation, freedom and equality for decades if not centuries. You could call this a shift to the left if you wish. It is certainly a shift.

I think it would be wrong to assume that there is one single cause. If you want a major factor then I would say the growth of information. People now know what is happening in their country and can compare it with what happens in other countries. All manner of information is at our fingertips. I would agree that young people tend to drive change. Is this a bad thing?
The timeframe matters in answering this question. Since JJ mention it being a bit over a decade, the answer is actually the opposite.

The Overton window has moved hard to the right (in the US, and possibly elsewhere)
 

john james

Well-known member
Probably over a much longer time frame than that. There has been a steady move in the direction of liberalisation, freedom and equality for decades if not centuries. You could call this a shift to the left if you wish. It is certainly a shift.

I think it would be wrong to assume that there is one single cause. If you want a major factor then I would say the growth of information. People now know what is happening in their country and can compare it with what happens in other countries. All manner of information is at our fingertips. I would agree that young people tend to drive change. Is this a bad thing?
Based upon what some say about the bad ideologies they were indoctrinated with. It would be bad if they were driving change with the bad ideologies as their standard.
 
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Temujin

Well-known member
Based upon what some say about the bad ideologies they were indoctrinated with. It would be bad if they were driving change with the bad ideologies as their standard.
Who determines what is a "good" or a "bad" ideology?
Who determines which ideology is implemented?
What, if anything, is your problem with this?
 

john james

Well-known member
Who determines what is a "good" or a "bad" ideology?
Who determines which ideology is implemented?
What, if anything, is your problem with this?

Some say what determines a bad one is when that ideology, the things things in it and/or the consequences of it lead to the breaking natural law, violating others rights as humans (not in desire) and has consequences because reality says it shouldn't happen.

Some say power. I think that might be right.

It ends up mistreating and hurting people even when the intention may seem good. It ends up making things better for some at the expense of others
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Has the overton window, the window of whats normal and whats mainstream shifted left in the last 13 years?

Some say that it has happened because some people indoctrinated young adults in the universities with bad liberalism. And when they graduated, instead of the U.S. changing them, they changed the U.S.
Yes, of course. Over, say, the last 50-100 years it has moved steadily to the left. You only have to compare today with fifty or a hundred years ago to see that. Things like premarital sex, single mothers, homosexuality, same-sex marriage, marijuana use, more 'display' of flesh (thinking of bathing suit styles), have become acceptable during that time in ways that never would have been tolerated before.

As for these people who talk about "bad liberalism", that's entirely subjective. Liberalism has been a good force in society for hundreds of years; liberalism freed the slaves, got women the vote, fought for black civil rights, etc., all things that (I believe) very, very few people would say were bad. Now it may well be that there are ideas that are though of as liberal today that are not (or would not be) good for society (I can think of at least one). That doesn't make liberalism bad; it makes those ideas bad.

A much more likely reason is the increase in global education and knowledge. It's easy to think of (for example) homosexuals as being bad, evil people when you don't know any, and all you ever hear is how they hate everything good, want to destroy marriage and society and corrupt the youth. When you learn that there are homosexuals who are artists, cops, educators, and scientists, and (perhaps) the guy next door who you've always been friendly with, you start to think that it's pretty silly to think of them all as being bad or evil...and then you start to think that it's pretty silly to think of homosexuality itself being bad or evil.

I'm reminded of a passage in one of my all time favourite books, The Boys Of Summer, by Roger Kahn. The book's about the Brooklyn Dodgers of the 1950's, just before they moved from Ebbets field to LA. He talks about Jackie Robinson (of whom I'm sure you've heard) and how just his presence on the field, playing on an equal basis with white players and not just holding his own, but excelling, helped in eradicating racism. Robinson didn't make any speeches, no signs, no marches...he just did what white guys did, and did it as well as or even better than they did. And people started to think "hmmm...about those <insert traditional insults of black people like lazy, stupid, etc.> black people...have you seen Robinson? He's none of those things. Maybe black people in general aren't any of those things." A quote from the book: 'By applauding Robinson, a man did not feel that he was taking a stand on school integration, or on open housing. But for an instant he had accepted Robinson simply as a hometown ball player. To disregard color, even for an instant, is to step away from the old prejudices, the old hatred. That is not a path on which many double back.' And what Robinson did paved the way for Campanella, and others...and gradually even more racism was worn away. And the country drifted slowly toward the left in that respect.

The same is true of many societal aspects. Conservatives fight against it, and the society slowly drifts leftward nevertheless. That's how societies work.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Some say what determines a bad one is when that ideology, the things things in it and/or the consequences of it lead to the breaking natural law, violating others rights as humans (not in desire) and has consequences because reality says it shouldn't happen.
That's pretty meaningless. What is "natural law"? What rights as humans? What does reality say shoudln't happen?
 

john james

Well-known member
That's pretty meaningless. What is "natural law"? What rights as humans? What does reality say shoudln't happen?
It basically means there are bad signs some shouldn't do certain things but some ignore them because of the desire to get certain things. Sometimes it is good intentions but bad consequences. Sometines good things come from bad ideologies but that doesn't mean they are all the way good.

Some say once upon a time it was good, bad, right, wrong and they were more objective. It was more of a common sense of right, wrong, good, and bad, greater than it is today. Then bad ideologies came and now they are more subjective.

Some say some being obsessed with liberty and freedom have caused them to not see that certain restrictions were to protect more than they were to restrict.

Some say if some are not careful, the standard of not harming others will be phased out or justified away and there will be no more right or wrong based upon harm, just power.
 

Gus Bovona

Well-known member
Yes, of course. Over, say, the last 50-100 years it has moved steadily to the left. You only have to compare today with fifty or a hundred years ago to see that. Things like premarital sex, single mothers, homosexuality, same-sex marriage, marijuana use, more 'display' of flesh (thinking of bathing suit styles), have become acceptable during that time in ways that never would have been tolerated before.

As for these people who talk about "bad liberalism", that's entirely subjective. Liberalism has been a good force in society for hundreds of years; liberalism freed the slaves, got women the vote, fought for black civil rights, etc., all things that (I believe) very, very few people would say were bad. Now it may well be that there are ideas that are though of as liberal today that are not (or would not be) good for society (I can think of at least one). That doesn't make liberalism bad; it makes those ideas bad.

A much more likely reason is the increase in global education and knowledge. It's easy to think of (for example) homosexuals as being bad, evil people when you don't know any, and all you ever hear is how they hate everything good, want to destroy marriage and society and corrupt the youth. When you learn that there are homosexuals who are artists, cops, educators, and scientists, and (perhaps) the guy next door who you've always been friendly with, you start to think that it's pretty silly to think of them all as being bad or evil...and then you start to think that it's pretty silly to think of homosexuality itself being bad or evil.

I'm reminded of a passage in one of my all time favourite books, The Boys Of Summer, by Roger Kahn. The book's about the Brooklyn Dodgers of the 1950's, just before they moved from Ebbets field to LA. He talks about Jackie Robinson (of whom I'm sure you've heard) and how just his presence on the field, playing on an equal basis with white players and not just holding his own, but excelling, helped in eradicating racism. Robinson didn't make any speeches, no signs, no marches...he just did what white guys did, and did it as well as or even better than they did. And people started to think "hmmm...about those <insert traditional insults of black people like lazy, stupid, etc.> black people...have you seen Robinson? He's none of those things. Maybe black people in general aren't any of those things." A quote from the book: 'By applauding Robinson, a man did not feel that he was taking a stand on school integration, or on open housing. But for an instant he had accepted Robinson simply as a hometown ball player. To disregard color, even for an instant, is to step away from the old prejudices, the old hatred. That is not a path on which many double back.' And what Robinson did paved the way for Campanella, and others...and gradually even more racism was worn away. And the country drifted slowly toward the left in that respect.

The same is true of many societal aspects. Conservatives fight against it, and the society slowly drifts leftward nevertheless. That's how societies work.
Robinson's major predecessor in that regard was Louis Armstrong. He was among the first entertainers who brought blacks and whites together in the audience in appreciation of a black man.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
It basically means there are bad signs some shouldn't do certain things but some ignore them because of the desire to get certain things. Sometimes it is good intentions but bad consequences. Sometines good things come from bad ideologies but that doesn't mean they are all the way good.
What "bad signs"? Who determines that they are bad?
Some say once upon a time it was good, bad, right, wrong and they were more objective. It was more of a common sense of right, wrong, good, and bad, greater than it is today. Then bad ideologies came and now they are more subjective.

Some say some being obsessed with liberty and freedom have caused them to not see that certain restrictions were to protect more than they were to restrict.

Some say if some are not careful, the standard of not harming others will be phased out or justified away and there will be no more right or wrong based upon harm, just power.
Again with all this "some say..." nonsense of yours. Do you ever come out and say what YOU say?
 

TeabagSalad

Active member
I'm interested to see how people percieve the political landscape, so here is a question for John James (and others):

If we were to divide the political landscape up into blocks, like this:
1) Extreme Left
2) Far Left
3) Left
4) Moderate Left
5) Centrist (Left leaning)
6) True Centrist
7) Centrist (Right leaning)
8) Moderate Right
9) Right
10) Far Right
11) Extreme Right

Where would you put Trump?
Where would you put Biden?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
I'm interested to see how people percieve the political landscape, so here is a question for John James (and others):

If we were to divide the political landscape up into blocks, like this:
1) Extreme Left
2) Far Left
3) Left
4) Moderate Left
5) Centrist (Left leaning)
6) True Centrist
7) Centrist (Right leaning)
8) Moderate Right
9) Right
10) Far Right
11) Extreme Right

Where would you put Trump?
Where would you put Biden?
Biden - 7- Lawful neutral
Trump - Chaotic Evil, Not on your list. Could go anywhere as the mood takes him.

Most recently, 8.
 

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
Has the overton window, the window of whats normal and whats mainstream shifted left in the last 13 years?

Some say that it has happened because some people indoctrinated young adults in the universities with bad liberalism. And when they graduated, instead of the U.S. changing them, they changed the U.S.
No. The whole political spectrum has shifted right.

Alas, your fantasy is not even good fiction.

Spectrim.png
 

john james

Well-known member
I'm interested to see how people percieve the political landscape, so here is a question for John James (and others):

If we were to divide the political landscape up into blocks, like this:
1) Extreme Left
2) Far Left
3) Left
4) Moderate Left
5) Centrist (Left leaning)
6) True Centrist
7) Centrist (Right leaning)
8) Moderate Right
9) Right
10) Far Right
11) Extreme Right

Where would you put Trump?
Where would you put Biden?
I dont know, personally.

Trump: Some say centrist right or moderate right because it seems his policies are mostly on the right and he wouldn't be right completely because he was a Democrat before running for President in 2016 and he said he agreed with some democrat stuff. He will not be pressured into anything but can be talked into it because his lack of knowledge in certain areas of the political arena by family members and he listens to the wrong advisors advice sometimes.


Biden: Some say moderate left. Some say because many people around him are far left and extreme left, he is far and extreme left at times trying to pacific their pressure on him and the pressure of some in his party/other groups like BLM.


Some say: Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Talib, Ayanna Pressley and many others democrats are EXTREME LEFT. (Not including Tulsi Gabbard but she is not a house representative anymore)

Some say some Republican(not including Ted Cruz, Josh Holly, Hawley, Tom Cotton, John Kennedy, Rand Paul, Marco Rubio, Ben Sasse, Tim Scott) are EXTREME RIGHT
 
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Whateverman

Well-known member
I'm interested to see how people percieve the political landscape, so here is a question for John James (and others):

If we were to divide the political landscape up into blocks, like this:
1) Extreme Left
2) Far Left
3) Left
4) Moderate Left
5) Centrist (Left leaning)
6) True Centrist
7) Centrist (Right leaning)
8) Moderate Right
9) Right
10) Far Right
11) Extreme Right

Where would you put Trump?
Where would you put Biden?
****** is Right (9), and Biden is Moderate Left (4)
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Biden - 7- Lawful neutral
Trump - Chaotic Evil, Not on your list. Could go anywhere as the mood takes him.

Most recently, 8.
Biden is a right-leaning centrist???

edit: I know US perspective is skewed to the right in general, and that what we perceive as ultraliberal really is more moderate than in other countries. But still, I don't understand how Biden could be considered Conservative about anything...
 
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