Have you watched an abortion procedure?

BMS

Well-known member
The issue presents an interesting situation. I would argue that pro-choice abortion is pre-meditated murder of a human being. That the human being is in the womb doesn't mean it isn't the human being. The criteria such as not yet sentient or not yet able to live outside of the mother, or no yet with cognitive reasoning or able to reproduce doesn't mean it isn't a human being because all the DNA is there.

The problem with this is if one cant discuss the rights of the unborn human being, why should we discuss the rights of the mother? If we took the same attitude there would not only be no communication possible and complete division and breakdown in relations.

I cant necessarily think of a greater human hatred than pro-choice abortion, but hey thankfully we have a God who will eventually judge us all, the living and the dead.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
The issue presents an interesting situation. I would argue that pro-choice abortion is pre-meditated murder of a human being. That the human being is in the womb doesn't mean it isn't the human being. The criteria such as not yet sentient or not yet able to live outside of the mother, or no yet with cognitive reasoning or able to reproduce doesn't mean it isn't a human being because all the DNA is there.

The problem with this is if one cant discuss the rights of the unborn human being, why should we discuss the rights of the mother? If we took the same attitude there would not only be no communication possible and complete division and breakdown in relations.

I cant necessarily think of a greater human hatred than pro-choice abortion, but hey thankfully we have a God who will eventually judge us all, the living and the dead.
I have no problem with this post, except for one thing. I don't agree with your views, but you are entirely free to hold them, and you are in some good company. Except for one thing. Abortion isn't murder. Just like it isn't fraud or tax evasion. "As bad as", "Equivalent to" or "The moral equal of" I have no problem. Saying that abortion actually IS murder, is however stupid, lazy and untrue. If you are wiling to substitute an appropriate phrase, then I would be more than happy to discuss the rights of the unborn as opposed to the born with you or anyone else. I am not prepared however, to waste my time on anything substantive on anyone stupid, lazy or dishonest.
 

BMS

Well-known member
I have no problem with this post, except for one thing. I don't agree with your views, but you are entirely free to hold them, and you are in some good company. Except for one thing. Abortion isn't murder. Just like it isn't fraud or tax evasion. "As bad as", "Equivalent to" or "The moral equal of" I have no problem. Saying that abortion actually IS murder, is however stupid, lazy and untrue. If you are wiling to substitute an appropriate phrase, then I would be more than happy to discuss the rights of the unborn as opposed to the born with you or anyone else. I am not prepared however, to waste my time on anything substantive on anyone stupid, lazy or dishonest.
Sorry but I don't agree with your views. I do hold my views and whether you agree or not wont change my views. Tax evasion is indeed tax evasion even if one's views consider it NOT to be tax evasion (I think you made an assumption about tax evasion there)
Saying that abortion isnt murder is mentally deranged and devoid of observable reality.
 

BMS

Well-known member
If one watches an abortion procedure of a human being, and I fully accept that human beings may well be offended by that, so they shouldn't, one sees that a human being is destroyed. If one doesnt watch an abortion procedure, and I fully accept that human beings may well be offended by that, so they shouldn't, one sees that a human being is killed and destroyed.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Sorry but I don't agree with your views. I do hold my views and whether you agree or not wont change my views. Tax evasion is indeed tax evasion even if one's views consider it NOT to be tax evasion (I think you made an assumption about tax evasion there)
Saying that abortion isnt murder is mentally deranged and devoid of observable reality.
Except that observable reality is that it is not murder. It is a legal medical procedure. Thousands are performed and no one is arrested, charged or convicted of murder, because it isn't murder. Murder is a precisely defined legal term, and abortion doesn't qualify. Sorry. You are indeed entitled to your own beliefs, but in this case reality reveals how mistaken you are.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Except that observable reality is that it is not murder. It is a legal medical procedure. Thousands are performed and no one is arrested, charged or convicted of murder, because it isn't murder. Murder is a precisely defined legal term, and abortion doesn't qualify. Sorry. You are indeed entitled to your own beliefs, but in this case reality reveals how mistaken you are.
Observable reality is observable, your imagination is yours alone. The fascists and marxists of the last century were convinced what they were doing killing people, Jews or capitalist enemies of the state was legal. Millions were performed and the only people who got arrested were those who objected.
Sorry bad luck, many other human rights pale into insignificance when compared with the genocide of pro-choice abortion
 

BMS

Well-known member
Except that observable reality is that it is not murder.
So when we see film of the Nazis killing Jews, that is not observable reality or murder in your view? Or do you believe Jews are human being and humans beings in the womb aren't?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Observable reality is observable, your imagination is yours alone. The fascists and marxists of the last century were convinced what they were doing killing people, Jews or capitalist enemies of the state was legal. Millions were performed and the only people who got arrested were those who objected.
Sorry bad luck, many other human rights pale into insignificance when compared with the genocide of pro-choice abortion
Just how many doctors performing legal abortion have you observed being charged with murder? That's how much credibility your assertion has. None, whatsoever.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
So when we see film of the Nazis killing Jews, that is not observable reality or murder in your view? Or do you believe Jews are human being and humans beings in the womb aren't?
Not only do I think that the Nazis committed murder, "observable reality" did as well, which is why so many were hanged. How many doctors performing legal abortions have you observed being hanged? That's right, none at all, which is one strong indication that the observable reality is that abortion is not murder.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
The issue presents an interesting situation. I would argue that pro-choice abortion is pre-meditated murder of a human being. That the human being is in the womb doesn't mean it isn't the human being. The criteria such as not yet sentient or not yet able to live outside of the mother, or no yet with cognitive reasoning or able to reproduce doesn't mean it isn't a human being because all the DNA is there.

The problem with this is if one cant discuss the rights of the unborn human being, why should we discuss the rights of the mother? If we took the same attitude there would not only be no communication possible and complete division and breakdown in relations.

I cant necessarily think of a greater human hatred than pro-choice abortion, but hey thankfully we have a God who will eventually judge us all, the living and the dead.
Your argument is correct.

Our state requires a medical consult separate from the abortionist and that the case must be evaluated 48 hours before the procedure. That makes it premeditated.
 

Algor

Well-known member
Oh good. You managed half a testicle. Here’s one that I really don’t think you’ll manage though: are you a qualified and credentialled physician? Yes or no.
Don’t wimp out here, boyo.

Having trouble with this one, Authentic Nouveau? It's a yes-no question. Lost your nerve?
 

BMS

Well-known member
Not only do I think that the Nazis committed murder, "observable reality" did as well, which is why so many were hanged. How many doctors performing legal abortions have you observed being hanged? That's right, none at all, which is one strong indication that the observable reality is that abortion is not murder.
Sorry but your reply doesn't make sense, how does observable reality commit murder? Could you please clarify what you mean by that and whether you believe film of the the nazi's killing Jews is an observable reality? However that was a question about what you had originally which wasnt clear in the first place. My question was 'do you believe Jews are human being and humans beings in the womb aren't?'
 
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