Hb 11:1, B16, Plato, and Extra Nos

[BJ Bear]

And more in a single podcast.

Faith is a sure trust of things hoped for, not doubting what isn't seen. - Hebrews 11:1, paraphrase of Luther's translation.

Benedict XVI used the Vulgate translation to demonstrate a Platonic interpretation of Hb 11:1 and claim that a presumptive Luther translation (rather than something similar to what is posted above) and general "protestant" understanding of Hebrews 11:1 is subjective rather than objective, rathr than extra nos (outside of us)).

It won't be everyone's cup of tea but the Outlaw God podcast at 1517-DOT-org goes through some of the history, historical characters, and philosophical inflluences surrounding the Reformtion then and now. If some of this stuff is new to you then starting at the first podcast might be helpful.

Outlaw God

The Outlaw God podcast is about moving from theological speculation to proclamation. Featuring Dr. Steven Paulson and co-hosted by Caleb Keith.

www.1517.org

 

[Bonnie]

much of modern christianity has been polluted by plato via augustine and other medieval theologians who were really platonists .....contributing to the failed reformation.

The Reformation did not fail. Just because our beliefs are different than yours doesn't mean it "failed."

 

[Bonnie]

And more in a single podcast.

Faith is a sure trust of things hoped for, not doubting what isn't seen. - Hebrews 11:1, paraphrase of Luther's translation.

Benedict XVI used the Vulgate translation to demonstrate a Platonic interpretation of Hb 11:1 and claim that a presumptive Luther translation (rather than something similar to what is posted above) and general "protestant" understanding of Hebrews 11:1 is subjective rather than objective, rathr than extra nos (outside of us)).

It won't be everyone's cup of tea but the Outlaw God podcast at 1517-DOT-org goes through some of the history, historical characters, and philosophical inflluences surrounding the Reformtion then and now. If some of this stuff is new to you then starting at the first podcast might be helpful.

Outlaw God

The Outlaw God podcast is about moving from theological speculation to proclamation. Featuring Dr. Steven Paulson and co-hosted by Caleb Keith.

www.1517.org

I always thought Hebrews 11:1 was pretty straight-forward and easy to understand.

 

[BJ Bear]

much of modern christianity has been polluted by plato via augustine and other medieval theologians who were really platonists .....contributing to the failed reformation.

Well, a lot of the English translations of Hebrews 11:1 and I would say Acts 17:31 provide evidence of the first assertion but not necessarily the second. That would depend on how a person defines the Reformation and how it is being measured.

 

[BJ Bear]

I always thought Hebrews 11:1 was pretty straight-forward and easy to understand.

I agree, but as I listened to the summary of the explanation in Spei Salvi the more I found myself smiling and thinking of brother Elder. What a person brings to a text can sometimes override it.

 

[BJ Bear]

who is brother elder? I don't see how letting plato via platonic church fathers into christianity did anything but terrible harm, confusing every context, allowing pagan constructs into the canon.. .etc.

Elder is a former poster here that has gone on to be with the Lord.

Terrible harm is something we can agree upon but probably not to the same extent. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[BJ Bear]

the reformation was an attempt by genuine souls to return to core christianity...
and even when they did not understand exactly how heinous was the corruption
brought in by these platonic esau theologians and 'christian leaders' (um no).
But exactly by not understanding, it was impossible for them to succeed...
since not seeing where the corruptions were and only focusing on a limited
and often vague list of problems... and this though many meant sincerely to
restore christianity. But the effort did not... and instead gave rise to modern christianity,
complete with platonic elements that modern christianity doesn't even see
because then they would have to study plato. And not as a follower of him,
but to see what trickery he was up to. In fact, sola scriptura was a brilliant idea promoted be esau...
(Esau used sola scriptura in a twisted form, since I recognize scripture is the only authority.)

What esau did with his 'version(s)' of christianity was to then apply sola scriptura to THOSE flawed versions
and with the political power of the times, to force souls to comply or be called heretics
and possibly undergo inquisition. So when a modern claims sola scriptura,
sometimes they are ALREADY claiming it on esau's version and translations and canons.

Even if the alterations in meaning are slight, even when translations errors are called 'accidental'
...regardless...the result is a mess today. Evidence is the warring that goes on among wrong versions,
even on carm. And in that 'where's waldo' of versions, a correct understanding would end up
but one more version, hidden in that mess and discounted. that is a reason why debate is impotent
and the reformation failed. Because within the reformed 'versions' were the same errors
of before and the great success of the reformation is that there is nothing to consider (sadly, not a true success).
each version views itself as correct and blessed by God and the followers are afraid to
think. God is not a monster, he does not murder a soul for trying to understand.
That murdering is what inquisitors and dogmatic monsters do.

In the reformation, a version might have tried correct one point and miss something else.
It was a human attempt to reform, a human work, and in my estimation, failed.
And one can trace every failure back to Greek philosophy and its view, and
every confusion on this forum is can be traced to that. all the false views trace
back to plato. As much as people here complain when a pagan idea is mentioned, the point missed
is that the ONLY reason to bring them up and discuss them is because they were used to pollute scripture.
And the ONLY reason to discuss them is to shed light on the error and correct it and ELIMINATE the pagan element,
in order to uphold scripture instead.

God does not murder souls for reading plato (to understand how it has infiltrated christianity)
anymore than he would hate or murder a soul for learning more
about a cult in order to understand what is wrong with its ideas.

And among other things, that is what I taught at university. I did just that, going line by line, point by point, showing
how plato was wrong, and where augustine and others were platonists and comparing each
one of those mistakes to what God says instead. And showing the students how to read.
Because no one knows how to anymore or bothers to translate for themselves from the original texts.

What is interesting to me is that the early Gentile believers or Christians recognized many of the Platonic errors of the heretics.

Speaking just for myself, I can easily understand why Luther was reported to say in a Table Talk that since he discovered the Gospel [in the narrow sense of what God has done and does for us in the person and work of Christ] it is hard for him to think good of the Doctors of the church. --Paraphrase

 

[BJ Bear]

but they missed many other errors.

Thank you for responding to this thread. Your response has prompted me to dust off a book I read as a newbie, Pelikan's Christianity And Culture. It will dovetail nicely with the podcast series mentioned in the OP.

"What has athens to do with Jerusalem?" Tertullian