Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife

5wize said:
Do you have sources for this mistranslation? Is it in Strong’s
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The same Greek root word is used throughout the Bible to mean "age," e.g. "Lo, I am with you always, even until the end of the aion," a period of time with a beginning and END.

That sounds like you made it up. Where does Jesus say that the agape of the sheep is only motivated by his grace in this narrative (or anywhere)?
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He doesn't need to. All agape originates from His grace, for He is Love (Agape).
 
SteveB said:
I'm working with your use of claiming that aionion is age-long, and eternal, depending on the application.

So, considering that aionion is only ever translated as eternal and everlasting,

Why is it age-long for the unrighteous and eternal for the righteous?
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It's age-long for both. The Kingdom of God is only for an age of 1,000 years.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
The same Greek root word is used throughout the Bible to mean "age," e.g. "Lo, I am with you always, even until the end of the aion," a period of time with a beginning and END.
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But where can I read about your specific uncovered mistranslation? What scholars agree with you? It’s not what Strong’s says at all. Does anybody support this translation of yours?
stiggy wiggy said:
He doesn't need to. All agape originates from His grace, for He is Love (Agape).
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So you did make it up.
 
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stiggy wiggy said:
No one gets annihilated. Where are you getting that from?
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You.
You're saying that the translators from 412 years ago, and everyone since have lied, and that nobody lives forever.
They only have an age-long existence.

G166 - aiōnios
αἰώνιος
Transliteration: aiōnios
Pronunciation: ahee-o'-nee-os
Part of Speech: adjective
Root Word (Etymology): From αἰών (G165)
TDNT Reference: 1:208,31
Outline of Biblical Usage:
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

without beginning

without end, never to cease, everlasting

Click for Synonyms
KJV Translation Count: 71x
The KJV translates Strongs G166 in the following manner: eternal (42x), everlasting (25x), the world began (with G5550) (2x), since the world began (with G5550) (1x), for ever (1x).
Strong's Definitions: αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
[Jump to Scripture Index]
αἰώνιος, -ον, and (in 2 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 9:12; Numbers 25:13; Plato, Tim., p. 38 b. [see below]; Diodorus 1:1; [cf. WHs Appendix, p. 157; Winers Grammar, 69 (67); Buttmann, 26 (23)]) -ος, -α, -ον, (αἰών);
1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: θεός, Romans 16:26 (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Hebrews 9:14.
2. without beginning: χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, Romans 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων, 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; εὐαγγέλιον, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Revelation 14:6.
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Corinthians 4:18 (opposed to πρόσκαιρος); αἰώνιον αὐτόν, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philemon 1:15; βάρος δόξης, 2 Corinthians 4:17; βασιλεία, 2 Peter 1:11; δόξα, 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ζωή (see ζωή, 2 b.); κληρονομία, Hebrews 9:15; λύτρωσις, Hebrews 9:12; παράκλησις, 2 Thessalonians 2:16; σκηναί, abodes to be occupied forever, Luke 16:9 (the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. John 14:2 [also, dabo eis tabernacula aeterna, quae praeparaveram illis, 4 Esdras (Fritzsche, 5 Esdr.) 2:11]; similarly Hades is called αἰώνιος τόπος, Tobit 3:6, cf. Ecclesiastes 12:5); σωτηρία, Hebrews 5:9; [so Mark 16 WH, in the (rejected) 'Shorter Conclusion'].
Opposite ideas are: κόλασις, Matthew 25:46; κρίμα, Hebrews 6:2; κρίσις, Mark 3:29 (Rec. [but L T WH Tr text ἁμαρτήματος; in Acta Thom. § 47, p. 227 Tdf., ἔσται σοι τοῦτο εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ λύτρον αἰωνίων παραπτωμάτων, it has been plausibly conjectured we should read λύτρον, αἰώνιον (cf. Hebrews 9:12)]); ὄλεθρος [Lachmann text ὀλέθριος], 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (4 Macc. 10:15); πῦρ, Matthew 25:41 (4 Macc. 12:12 αἰωνίῳ πυρὶ κ. βασάνοις, αἳ εἰς ὅλον τὸν αἰῶνα οὐκ ἀνήσουσί σε).
[Of the examples of αἰώνιος from Philo (with whom it is less common than ἀΐδιος, which see, of which there are some fifty instances) the following are noteworthy: de mut. nora. § 2; de caritate § 17; κόλασις αἰ. fragment in Mang. 2:667 at the end (Richter 6:229 middle); cf. de praem, et poen. § 12. Other examples are de alleg, leg. iii., § 70; de poster. Caini § 35; quod deus immut. § 30; quis rer. div. her. § 58; de congressu quaer, erud. § 19; de secular sec 38; de somn. ii. § 43; de Josepho § 24; quod omn. prob. book § 4, § 18; de ebrietate § 32; de Abrah. § 10; ζωὴ αἰ.: de secular § 15; Θεός (ὁ) αἰ.: de plantat. § 2, § 18 (twice), § 20 (twice); de mundo § 2. from Josephus: Antiquities 7, 14, 5; 12, 7, 3; 15, 10, 5; b. j. 1, 33, 2; 6, 2, I; κλέος αἰ. Antiquities 4, 6, 5; b. j. 3, 8, 5, μνήμη αἱ.: Antiquities 1, 13, 4; 6, 14, 4; 10, 11, 7; 15, 11, 1; οἶκον μὲν αἰώνιον ἔχεις (of God), Antiquities 8, 4, 2; ἐφυλάχθη ὁ Ἰωάννης δεσμοῖς αἰωνίοις, b. j. 6, 9, 4.
SYNONYMS: ἀΐδιος, αἰώνιος: ἀΐδ. covers the complete philosophic idea — without beginning and without end; also either without beginning or without end; as respects the past, it is applied to what has existed time out of mind. αἰώνιος (from Plato on) gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity (while such words as συνεχής continuous, unintermitted, διατελής perpetual, lasting to the end, are not so applicable to an abstract term, like αἰών); αἰώνιος accordingly is especially adapted to supersensuous things, see the N. T. Cf. Tim. Locr. 96 c. Θεὸν δὲ τὸν μὲν αἰώνιον νόος ὁρῆ μόνος etc.; Plato, Tim. 37 d. (and Stallbaum at the passage); 38 b. c.; legg. x., p. 904 a. ἀνώλεθρον δὲ ὄν γενόμενον, ἀλλ’ οὐκ αἰώνιον. Cf. also Plato's διαιώνιος (Tim. 38 b.; 39 e.). Schmidt, chapter 45.]
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com
BLB Scripture Index of Thayer's
Numbers
25:13
Ecclesiastes
12:5
Matthew
25:41; 25:46
Mark
3:29; 16
Luke
16:9
John
14:2
Romans
16:25; 16:26
2 Corinthians
4:17; 4:18
2 Thessalonians
1:9; 2:16; 2:16
2 Timothy
1:9; 2:10
Titus
1:2
Philemon
1:15
Hebrews
5:9; 6:2; 9:12; 9:12; 9:12; 9:14; 9:15
1 Peter
5:10
2 Peter
1:11
Revelation
14:6


Mat 18:8

“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
Mat 19:16

Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Goodfn Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
Mat 19:29

“And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wifefn or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Mat 25:41

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46

“And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mar 3:29

“but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—
Mar 10:17

Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
Mar 10:30

“who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luk 10:25

And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Luk 16:9

“And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by unrighteous mammon, that when you fail,fn they may receive you into an everlasting home.
Luk 18:18

Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Luk 18:30

“who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Jhn 3:15

“that whoever believes in Him should not perish butfn have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:36

“He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Jhn 4:14

“but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
Jhn 4:36

“And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.
Jhn 5:24

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Jhn 5:39

“You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
Jhn 6:27

“Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Jhn 6:40

“And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Jhn 6:47

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Mefn has everlasting life.
Jhn 6:54

“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:68

But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
Jhn 10:28

“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Jhn 12:25

“He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Jhn 12:50

“And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”
Jhn 17:2

“as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He shouldfn give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
Jhn 17:3

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Act 13:46

Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
Act 13:48

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
 
Rom 2:7

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Rom 5:21

so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:22

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Rom 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 16:25

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
Rom 16:26

but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
2Co 4:17

For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,
2Co 4:18

while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
2Co 5:1

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Gal 6:8

For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
2Th 1:9

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 2:16

Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
1Ti 1:16

However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
1Ti 6:12

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1Ti 6:16

who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
1Ti 6:19

storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
2Ti 1:9

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
2Ti 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Tit 1:2

in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began


Tit 3:7

that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Phm 1:15

For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever,
Heb 5:9

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Heb 6:2

of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 9:12

Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:14

how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15

And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb 13:20

Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
1Pe 5:10

But mayfn the God of all grace, who called usfn to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.
2Pe 1:11

for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
1Jo 1:2

the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
1Jo 2:25

And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
1Jo 3:15

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 5:11

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jo 5:13

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,fn and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1Jo 5:20

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Jde 1:7

as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jde 1:21

keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Rev 14:6

Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—

Then from Finis Dakes.

[everlasting] Greek: aionios (G166), unknown time, time out of mind, eternity. Same word translated "eternal" in Joh 3:15. The life itself is eternal. Man’s posession of it does not change its nature or existence. It is eternal whether man ever gets it or not. It is still eternal whether man loses it or not. It is like an eternal diamond or anything else eternal. It always remains eternal, and is only in Jesus Christ

So, why is your age-long correct, and history wrong?
 
Furthermore, even Jerome, from the early 5th century used the word,

aeternam

To state it.

So, is he lying too?
 
5wize said:
But where can I read about your specific uncovered mistranslation?

What scholars agree with you? It’s not what Strong’s says at all. Does anybody support this translation of yours?
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Any NT Greek Concordance will reveal the fact that ainos means age. You don't need a "scholar" for that. Are you capable on your own to look up Matthew 28:20 with the aid of a Greek Concordance?

So you did make it up.
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No, the truth of all grace emanating from Christ Who is Love, is a truth established long before I was even born.
 
SteveB said:
You.
You're saying that the translators from 412 years ago, and everyone since have lied, and that nobody lives forever.
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Quote me saying or even implying that.

And why did you copy/paste all those Bible verses? You KNOW I'm a fundie Bible believer. If you think I have said anything contrary to any of the verses, QUOTE ME!

They only have an age-long existence.
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ONLY? Prove it. Did my previous example fly right over Your head? Here it is again:

"Only?" No, that and more. If I tell you I will reward you with a month long vacation in the Bahamas, would you infer from that that your life would end at the end of the month?

How do you explain I Timothy 4:10?

And II Peter 3:9? Did Satan thwart the will of Jesus forever more? If so, how do you explain I John 4:4?
 
stiggy wiggy said:
Any NT Greek Concordance will reveal the fact that ainos means age. You don't need a "scholar" for that. Are you capable on your own to look up Matthew 28:20 with the aid of a Greek Concordance?
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I use Strong’s for this type of lookup. It doesn’t agree with your interpretation of the greek. I cannot find any opinions to support your position.
stiggy wiggy said:
No, the truth of all grace emanating from Christ Who is Love, is a truth established long before I was even born.
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The concept of agape was from Plato so it is easy to see where Christianity would have been introduced to that and thus incorporate that thinking into their own.
 
5wize said:
I use Strong’s for this type of lookup. It doesn’t agree with your interpretation of the greek. I cannot find any opinions to support your position.
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James Strong bought into all of the KJV translations. I doubt he relished the idea of going against orthodox Christendom on this subject. "Got to keep those Christians in line with fear of everlasting damnation." And by the way, Origen was a Greek scholar and he perceived this greater truth.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
James Strong bought into all of the KJV translations. I doubt he relished the idea of going against orthodox Christendom on this subject. "Got to keep those Christians in line with fear of everlasting damnation." And by the way, Origen was a Greek scholar and he perceived this greater truth.
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O.K. I’m trying to get on page with you here. I’ve got no problem with the concept that the KJV translations might not be right. Can you show me a study that claims this for the verse under focus?
 
Oh, and Steve: You can stop wasting your time copy/pasting all those Bible verses. I am well aware that the mistranslation occurs in scores and scores of verses.

Check out A.E. Knoch's Concordant translation for all those verses you slapped up on the screen.
 
5wize said:
O.K. I’m trying to get on page with you here. I’ve got no problem with the concept that the KJV translations might not be right. Can you show me a study that claims this for the verse under focus?
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Try "The Restitution of All Things" by Andrew Jukes. He goes into great detail about the mistranslation.
 
Caroljeen said:
What source are you using?
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Plato’s Symposium. It outlines 7 gradients of *Platonic* love. Agape is one of them. The verb goes back as far as Homer 700-800 BCE. Predates Christianity in the terms current form by at least 400-500 years.
 
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5wize said:
Plato’s Symposium. It outlines 7 gradients of *Platonic* love. Agape is one of them. The verb goes back as far as Homer 700-800 BCE. Predates Christianity in the terms current form by at least 400-500 years.
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Thank you, but I'm interested in your source. I didn't think it was original with Paul or the Bible.
 
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