heavenly witnesses - full use in extant writings before Priscillian - Isaac the Jew

Verifiable facts also demonstrate that it was not that difficult for things to get inserted into the Latin Vulgate line as the example of the Epistle to the Laodiceans demonstrates. Things were also inserted into other prologues in copies of the Latin Vulgate, and readings from the Old Latin were also sometimes inserted.

Exactly.

There is no sign in the Fuldensis that Victor Caupa or any of the monks with him, suspected that the Epistle to the Laodiceans was not a legitimate part of Jerome's version of the Bible, or Pseudographic.
 
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The burden of proof is on those who claim a forgery when the 1st-person author makes perfect sense.
(See Ockham above.)

Same as with 2 Peter, the Pastoral Epistles and other 1st-person writings that “scholars” in the Academy claim as forgeries.

Did the writer of the Prologue to the Canonical Epistles work alone?

The writer, or writers of the Prologue to the Canonical Epistles use the first-person plural (as has repeatedly been pointed out to you) "we" and "ours".

It is generally assumed that Jerome worked alone on his translation, so why the plural "we" and "ours", this is anomalous.

Canonical Epistles Prologue

Translated by Kevin Edgecome, 2006


"The order of the seven Epistles, which are named Canonical, as is found in Latin books is not thus among the Greeks who believe rightly and follow the correct faith. For as Peter is first in the order of the Apostles, first also are his Epistles in the order of the others. But as we have just now corrected the Evangelists to the line of truth, so we have restored, with God helping, these to their proper order. For the first of them is one of James, two of Peter, three of John, and one of Jude. Which, if they were arranged by them and thus were faithfully turned into Latin speech by interpreters, they would have neither made ambiguity for readers nor would they have attacked the variety of words themselves, especially in that place where we read what is put down about the oneness of the Trinity in the First Epistle of John. In which we find many things to be mistaken of the truth of the faith by the unfaithful translators, who put down in their own edition only three words, that is, Water, Blood, and Spirit, and who omit the witness of the Father and Word and Spirit, by which both the Catholic faith is greatly strengthened and also the one substance of the Divinity of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is proved. Indeed, in the other Epistles, I leave to the judgment of the reader how much the edition of the others differs from ours. But you, O virgin of Christ Eustochium, while you zealously seek from me the truth of Scripture, you expose my old age, as it were, to the devouring teeth of the envious, who call me a falsifier and corruptor of the Holy Scriptures. But I, in such a work, am afraid of neither the envy of my rivals, nor will I refuse those requesting the truth of Holy Scripture."​
 
What do you think of this review by Aelred Cody of Vetus Latina: Die Reste der altlateinischen Bibel nach Petrus Sabatier neu gesammelt und herausgegeben von der Erzabtei Beuron. Band 25: Epistulae ad Thessalonicenses, Timotheum, Titum, Philemonem, Hebraeos, Pars I: Einleitung; Epistulae ad Thessalonicenses, Timotheum by Hermann Josef Frede?
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This first part of VL 25 is devoted το 1-2 Thessalonians and 1-2 Timothy, but its introduction is valid also for Titus, Philemon, And Hebrews, which are reserved for VL 25.2. The format is that of previously published volumes of VL; see the detailed description by Β . M. Peebles (CBQ 16 [1954] 210-25), written long before his tragic death but still valid and accurate. Here in VL 25.1, for the first time in VL, the critical apparatus includes indications of the Gothic version's readings when they are releνant for comparison with a Latin reading. The long introduction on the various types of Latin text and their witnesses, specifically for the Pauline corpus, is built upon what Frede wrote on texts and witnesses in VL 24.1 and 24.2, but it introduces some interesting new witnesses and reveals the new developments in F's experienced insight. The introduction includes an excursus on the different prologues accompanying the Pauline epistle in the Latin mss tradition, and another excursus on the Pauline summaries (capitula). In addition, the Pastoral Epistles are preceded by their own brief foreword and by an excursus on the type(s) of text found in Zeno of Verona. The test of Hebrews, a special case in some respects, will have its own supplementary introduction in 25.2.

In F.'s current reasoning, when he deals with the question of who revised the Pauline corpus to produce its Vg text, the prologue Primum quaeritur, which intro- ducts that corpus in the Vg, is important, F. insists that the author of the prologue Primum quaeritur (text now in Biblia Sacra iuxia Vulgatam versionem [ed. R, Weber ct al.; Stuttgart: WUrttembergische Bibdanstalt, 1969] 2. 1748-49) was himself the Vg reviser of the corpus. He reasons that Jerome cannot be the reviser of the corpus because Jerome (Vir. ill. 5) is very sceptical about the Pauline authorship of Hebrews, while the author of Primum quaeritur accepts and defends Hebrews' Pauline authorship. That reason is not a bad one. although Jerome wrote De viris Illustribus in a.D, 393, and his opinion on the author of Hebrews later became a bit more open to Paul. Perhaps the best argument against his responsibility for the Pauline corpus is still this: several Latin readings in the Pauline epistles for which Jerome himself argued on the basis of a Greek text arc not those of the Vg, while the Vg, readings in those same places, whether peculiar to the Vg or not, are precisely those which Jerome criticized (examples collected by D. de Bruyne, RB n.s. 12 [1915] 363-64). Some may brush that argument aside, however, as J. Chapman did (RHE IS [1922] 469-81; 19 [1923] 25-42; JTS 24 [1923] 33-5J, II3-25, 282-99), by concluding that Jerome vacillated and changed his mind. Pelagius, then? Ε sees the form of the Pauline quotations in the original text of Pclagius* Expositions as one very close to the pure Vg text; but, unlike De Bruyne, he rules out Pelagius as the Vg reviser of the Pauline corpus because Pelagius in his Expositions follows the order Philippians Thessalonians Colossians (instead of the Vg order Philippians Colossians Thessalonians) and entirely omits Hebrews {so strongly defended by the author of Primum quaeritur).

Nevertheless, reason F and others engaged in the VL project, the Pelagian text of Paul is so close to that of the Vg that the Vg's Pauline reviser should be sought among the early promoters of Pelagian doctrine. The candidate whom B. Fischer originally and then W Thiele in VL 26 and Κ in VL 24.2 and again here (pp. 99, 155) propose as reviser both of the catholic and of the Pauline epistles in the Vg is Rufinus "the Syriani.e., the person identified by B. Altaner (TQ 130 [1950] 432-49) both as the author of the doctrinally Pelagian Liber de fide (PL 21, 1123-54) and as the really Latin Rufinus who had been with Jerome in Bethlehem (hence his being said to have been provincial Palaestinae or natione syrus) before going to Rome between a.d, 399 and 402. With regard to such an identification we may perhaps ask: if we accept both (a) that the Vg reviser of the Pauline corpus was the author of the prologue Primum quaeritur, and (b) the identification of that reviser as Rutin us the Syrian, or even some other promoter of Pelagian doctrine, how are we to explain in Primum quaeritur the presence of the patently anti-Pelagian statement that "the Romans, for the most part, were so uncultivated that they did not understand that they were saved not by their merits but by God's grace"?

In the years since F did the introductions and texts in VL 24.1-2, there has been some refinement of his views of the nature and textual history of the different types of OL text and of the Vg, and some modification of his choice of fundamental models for three of his texts. His X text continues to be based on Tertullian, who is not a witness to an OL text actually circulating, because he seems to have made his own rather free translations from a Greek text. Frs Κ text remains the one current in Carthage at the time of Cyprian and Pseudo-Cyprian (the fundamental witnesses), Le.» the so-called African text, which Ε and others see as the African branch of an originally Italian text for which consistent European witnesses are lacking.

Whereas the D type of text in VL 24 was an attempted recension of the archetype of the Latin texts (with characteristically Western readings) found in Greek/ Latin bilingual mss of the Pauline corpus like Claromontanus and Boemerianus, in which the Latin text was to a great extent harmonijed with Ihe readings of its Greek partner, F. now bases his D text on Codex latinus medii aevi 1 of the Hungarian National Museum.. By relying on this codex, whose singular place in the history of the OL lext of Paul was first appreciated and demonstrated by F himself (Ein neuer fhulusiext und Kommentar [Vetus Latina: Aus der Geschichte der lateinischen Bibel 7-8; Freiburg: Herder, 1973-74]), and on the biblical citations which can be gleaned from Lucifer of Cagliari, F now intends his U text to be a Western type of Latin text uninfluenced by the Greek text of the bilinguals and probably older than the archetype of the bilinguals' Latin text. Whereas the "I" text in VL 24 was based on the citations by Marius Victor in us (except for Phil 1:1-15 and Colossians, for which Marius is not available), the "I" text in VL 25, as for Colossians in VL 24,2, is based on Ambrosiaster, a witness to a text which, according to F,, is further evolved than Μarius' and has moved away somewhat from Western readings, although it contains many typically "D" readings as well. Below the "I" line of text, F. often gives, in addition to simple unmarked variants, those readings more recent than Ambrosiastcr which he finds sufficiently representative of a subspecies of "I" text to be marked formally with a J (a certain "Italian" text), an A (characteristically found in Augustine's works), or an Μ (characteristically Milanese). The Vg line of VL 25 is taken, with few exceptions, from the Stuttgart edition of the Vg, as it was for Colossiaro in VL 24,2, while for Ephesians and Philippians in VL 24 it was the product of F/s own recension of the Vg. Vg variants in the fifth-century Spanish edition of Peregrinus and preceded by an S.

Frede suspects that all of these textual types except X are derived ultimately from a single Latin translation of the entire Pauline corpus, of which K. and D are two separate but parallel derivatives, with Κ closer to the original (p. 146). He believes that from the "African" K's lost European-Italian line evolved I, a Roman text discernible already with Novatian, characterized by changes toward what was becoming the standard Christian Latin vocabulary. Earlier I readings are often equivalent to those of D: later 1 readings are often equivalent to those of the Vg, E's view of the Vg's Pauline corpus as a Work which Was done Once and for all by its reviser but which began to be contaminated with OL readings as soon as its divulgation got under way (already with Pelagius) is retained. In recent reactions it may not always have been understood that this view of F's does not entail any idea of subsequent revisions of the Vg itself on the basis of a Greek text, once it left its reviser's hands. For F. the better witness to the original text of Pelagius' Expositions is the Reichenau ms now in Karlsruhe, critically controlled by comparison with some other witnesses, rather than the MS in Balliol College, Oxford, favored by A. Souter and, more recently by E. Ncilessen. We salute F for the high quality of his work.
 
Jerome's Vulgate Prologue is in our very first extant Vulgate edition.

And so is the Epistle to the Laodiceans "in our very first extant Vulgate edition".

Which Jerome explicitly rejected.

Jerome

De viris illustribus "On Illustrious Men"

Caput IV [Chapter 4] "Paulus qui ante"


“Legunt quidam et ad Laodicenses, sed ab omnibus exploditur.”

"There are also certain people who choose to read [the Epistle] "to the Laodiceans", but it is to be universally rejected by all."
 
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The name Jerome, unlike later copies add, is not found in either the Incipit, or Explicit to the Paratext-Prologue, or in the Capitula of the Fuldensis, "our very first extant Vulgate edition".
 
There are obviously problems with the Codex Fuldensis ("our very first extant Vulgate edition") in regards to additions to Jerome's genuine translation with respects to additions of Pseudographic books (Laodiceans) and Paratexts (Pauline and Canonical) being added, between the time of his death and Victor Caupa producing the Fuldensis.

This is an established fact.

P.S. Laodiceans is the next book after Colossians in the Fuldensis.
 
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Did the writer of the Prologue to the Canonical Epistles work alone?
The writer, or writers of the Prologue to the Canonical Epistles use the first-person plural (as has repeatedly been pointed out to you) "we" and "ours".
It is generally assumed that Jerome worked alone on his translation, so why the plural "we" and "ours", this is anomalous.

Journal of Theological Studies (1922-23)
St Jerome and the Vulgate New Testament
John Chapman
https://books.google.com/books?id=snETAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA114

But St Jerome suffered from bad eyesight and from cramp in the hands, so that he was obliged to dictate, and he gives this as the principal
reason for his frequently unpolished manner.

And now he was older.

Where is your assumption?
 
Journal of Theological Studies (1922-23)
St Jerome and the Vulgate New Testament
John Chapman
https://books.google.com/books?id=snETAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA114



And now he was older.

Where is your assumption?

Where does the writer specifically say "we corrected" and "ours" (the first person plurals) in the Canonical Epistles Prologue are the "unpolished manner" that he (not you) was talking about?

Um, nowhere.

So stop twisting material in a devious and deceptive manner.
 
Very obviously there are problems with the Codex Fuldensis ("our very first extant Vulgate edition") in regards to additions to Jerome's genuine translation with respects to additions of Pseudographic books (Laodiceans) and Paratexts (Pauline and Canonical) being added, between the time of his death and Victor Caupa producing the Fuldensis.

This is an established fact.

So far the only explanation Avery can give for writer/writers of the Canonical Epistles Prologue using the first person plurals i.e. "we corrected" "ours" etc (whereas Jerome is assumed to have worked alone on his translation) is a royal We, and bad eyesight and cramped hands.



Canonical Epistles Prologue

Translated by Kevin Edgecome, 2006


"The order of the seven Epistles, which are named Canonical, as is found in Latin books is not thus among the Greeks who believe rightly and follow the correct faith. For as Peter is first in the order of the Apostles, first also are his Epistles in the order of the others. But as we have just now corrected the Evangelists to the line of truth, so we have restored, with God helping, these to their proper order. For the first of them is one of James, two of Peter, three of John, and one of Jude. Which, if they were arranged by them and thus were faithfully turned into Latin speech by interpreters, they would have neither made ambiguity for readers nor would they have attacked the variety of words themselves, especially in that place where we read what is put down about the oneness of the Trinity in the First Epistle of John. In which we find many things to be mistaken of the truth of the faith by the unfaithful translators, who put down in their own edition only three words, that is, Water, Blood, and Spirit, and who omit the witness of the Father and Word and Spirit, by which both the Catholic faith is greatly strengthened and also the one substance of the Divinity of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is proved. Indeed, in the other Epistles, I leave to the judgment of the reader how much the edition of the others differs from ours. But you, O virgin of Christ Eustochium, while you zealously seek from me the truth of Scripture, you expose my old age, as it were, to the devouring teeth of the envious, who call me a falsifier and corruptor of the Holy Scriptures. But I, in such a work, am afraid of neither the envy of my rivals, nor will I refuse those requesting the truth of Holy Scripture."


P.S. Laodiceans is the next book after Colossians in the Fuldensis.

https://thefathersmonarchy.wordpres...ue-to-the-catholic-or-canonical-epistles/amp/
 
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So far the only explanation Avery can give for writer/writers of the Canonical Epistles Prologue using the first person plurals i.e. "we corrected" "ours" etc (whereas Jerome is assumed to have worked alone on his translation) is a royal We, and bad eyesight and cramped hands.

Which is more than sufficient to answer your question, since there was not any dictation into Dictaphones.

And I also mentioned the addressee Eustochium, who was part of Team Jerome.

Much of their time they (SA: Eustochium and Paula) spent in the study of scripture under the direction of Jerome. Eustochium spoke Latin and Classical Greek with equal ease and was able to read the scriptures in the Hebrew text. Many of Jerome's Biblical commentaries owe their existence to her influence and to her he dedicated his commentaries on the prophets Isaias and Ezekiel.
 
Note "using", i.e. misappropriating, twisting, and distorting.
Do you see anything specific to which you object?
Or is this a meaningless harumph?

Ron Conte is a good writer from the Catholic perspective, I was thinking of quoting him, but I did not see the material as well collated for our inquiry. Thus, the excellent Nazaroo page.
 
Which is more than sufficient to answer your question, since there was not any dictation into Dictaphones.

And I also mentioned the addressee Eustochium, who was part of Team Jerome.

Much of their time they (SA: Eustochium and Paula) spent in the study of scripture under the direction of Jerome. Eustochium spoke Latin and Classical Greek with equal ease and was able to read the scriptures in the Hebrew text. Many of Jerome's Biblical commentaries owe their existence to her influence and to her he dedicated his commentaries on the prophets Isaias and Ezekiel.

"Team Jerome" please tell me you're joking... This is so cringe. Like Averpedia can trusted as well. Your really scraping the bottom of the barrel and just making it up as you go along. Nothing you state hear can be trusted. End of story.
 
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