Heb 1:8 - Why did you make it so difficult?

[cjab]

Do you believe Jesus is God ?

Is Jesus God the Father? No. Rather he reveals God the Father.

 

[cjab]

Words are stubborn little things that like to hang on to their range of meaning. In Ps 45:6 אלהימ was chosen for a reason, and the LXX had a good reason to translate it θεός. They did not use the equivalent of "Lord" but the equivalent of "God."

Why, given my points above? How can God have a God in Ps 45:7?

 

[Gryllus Maior]

Why, given my points above? How can God have a God in Ps 45:7?

That's a theological issue I'm not concerned with. The reason I find your points less than persuasive (though interesting) is because that's not the way the text was read for most of the history of interpretation. It becomes more of a thing in the 20th century. For fun, the NJPS renders:

"Your divine throne is everlasting; your scepter is a scepter of equity." So you are certainly not alone in wanting to "do something" apart from the more literal reading. I must admit I've enjoyed the interaction and digging deeper into this.

 

[John Milton]

That's a theological issue I'm not concerned with. The reason I find your points less than persuasive (though interesting) is because that's not the way the text was read for most of the history of interpretation.

Which text are you referring to: the Psalm or Hebrews? There is no doubt that the Messianic interpretation of the Psalm is old and the consistent understanding of the text from the early Christian period, but it by no means certain that it is the oldest interpretation. Do you think it was never meant to refer to a specific ruler? Is there any evidence of a messianic interpretation before the rise of Christianity?

 

[The Real John Milton]

That's a theological issue I'm not concerned with. The reason I find your points less than persuasive (though interesting) is because that's not the way the text was read for most of the history of interpretation. It becomes more of a thing in the 20th century. For fun, the NJPS renders:

"Your divine throne is everlasting; your scepter is a scepter of equity." So you are certainly not alone in wanting to "do something" apart from the more literal reading. I must admit I've enjoyed the interaction and digging deeper into this.

It is a point of logic rather , and therefore must be addressed in a biblical languages forum.

 

[The Real John Milton]

Also when you folks are trying to argue that “Jesus” is “God” ( as in “YHWH”) iin verses like John 1:1c , [where the word “Jesus” does not even occur and where the anarthrous “god” in John 1:1c is hardly “the God” of John 1:1b], aren’t you engaging in “a theological discussion” albeit with a (feigned and arguably bad) grammatical twist ?

What I notice at Carm. is that the Trinitarian arguments are not very rational nor well thought out ; not to mention the sometimes bad grammatical arguments which pepper the forum, and also the ubiquitous ad hominems which rule virtually every post.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Just quickly, ἅγιος is always an adjective, and θεός always a noun. As for the rest, "because you want it to be" is not an argument.

Always an adjective eh?

Did you even bother to check to see if your claim makes any sense?

And could you define theos at John 1:1c? What does the word refer to?

 

[Gryllus Maior]

Always an adjective eh?

Did you even bother to check to see if your claim makes any sense?

And could you define theos at John 1:1c? What does the word refer to?

What's to check? I know the language. You don't. Now, if you want talk about the substantive use of the adjective, such as οἱ ἅγιοι, "the holy ones, the saints..." that's a different discussion which might require you to know something about the language.

 

[Our Lord's God]

What's to check? I know the language. You don't. Now, if you want talk about the substantive use of the adjective, such as οἱ ἅγιοι, "the holy ones, the saints..." that's a different discussion which might require you to know something about the language.

What a mess.

So please do clarify whether you are understanding John 1:1c to be functioning as an adjective.

 

[Gryllus Maior]

What a mess.

So please do clarify whether you are understanding John 1:1c to be functioning as an adjective.

No, it's a noun.

 

[The Real John Milton]

What's to check? I know the language. You don't. Now, if you want talk about the substantive use of the adjective, such as οἱ ἅγιοι, "the holy ones, the saints..." that's a different discussion which might require you to know something about the language.

I would take issue with your claim that you “know” biblical Koine beyond the usual Trinitarian talking points.

 

[Gryllus Maior]

I would take issue with your claim that you “know” biblical Koine beyond the usual Trinitarian talking points.

εἴ σοι δοκεῖ, γένοιτο!

 

[The Real John Milton]

εἴ σοι δοκεῖ, γένοιτο!

Hash….

 

[Gryllus Maior]

Hash….

Here's where you reveal who really doesn't know the language. Common Koine expressions, easily understood.

 

[The Real John Milton]

Here's where you reveal who really doesn't know the language. Common Koine expressions, easily understood.

Nonsense,.. English expression transliterated into “Koine.”

 

[Gryllus Maior]

Nonsense,.. English expression transliterated into “Koine.”

Amusing.


ⓑ impers. δοκεῖ μοι it seems to me (Ael. Aristid. 47 p. 427 D.: ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ; Jos., Ant. 6, 227 δοκεῖ σοι; Just., D. 5, 2 οὕτως δοκεῖ ὀρθῶς ἔχειν).


β. it seems best to me, I decide, I resolve w. inf. foll. (X., An. 1, 10, 17; Diod S 18, 55, 2; Appian, Iber. 63 §265; SIG 1169, 77 [IV b.c.]; Jos., Ant. 6, 321) Lk 1:3 (decretal style; cp. the foll. pass.); as administrative t.t. (freq. ins, e.g. IPriene 105, 20 [9 b.c.]) Ac 15:22, 25, 28 (cp. Jos., Ant. 16, 163 ἔδοξέ μοι κ. τῷ ἐμῷ συμβουλίῳ … χρῆσθαι; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 8 ἔδοξε τῷ θεῷ; s. Ferguson, Legal Terms 50–53 on the socio-cultural implications of these Ac pass.; Danker, Benefactor 310–13; s. also MSimon, BJRL 52, ’69/70, 437–60; CPerrot, RSR 69, ’81, 195–208); ἄλογον γάρ μοι δοκεῖ I decided that is was unreasonable 25:27. Cp. MPol 12:3. ὡς ἄν σοι δόξῃ as it may seem best to you D 13:7 (Arrian, Cyneg. 3. 4 ὥς μοι δοκεῖ).—Cp. the contrast of the two mngs.: τὰ ἀεὶ δοκοῦντα … τῷ δοκοῦντι εἶναι ἀληθῆ=‘that which seems true is true to one who thinks it’ Pla., Tht. 158e (s. L-S-J-M δ. end).—EHamp, ClPh 63, ’68, 285–87.—B. 1121. DELG. Schmidt, Syn. I 321–28 s. δόξα. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.


Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 255). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

 

[The Real John Milton]

It’s not just that one word, it’s the way your expression is phrased. .. Moving on.

 

[Gryllus Maior]

It’s not just that one word, it’s the way your expression is phrased. .. Moving on.

And how would you phrase it, O uncredentialed master of Koine? πῶς οἶδας;

 

[Our Lord's God]

No, it's a noun.

Functioning as a noun?

Or functioning as an adjective?

 

[Gryllus Maior]

Functioning as a noun?

Or functioning as an adjective?

As a noun.