Heb 1:8 - Why did you make it so difficult?

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
συ εἶ τῇ κεφαλῇ παχύς... It is simply used as God without respect to Father, Son or Holy Spirit.
But you are just repeating your claim.

I am asking you a simple yes or no clarifying question concerning your (weird) claim:

With bold above are you saying that “God” in John 1:1b is a single person, albeit not defined as Father, Son or Holy Spirit ? Yes or No ?
 

Gryllus Maior

Well-known member
But you are just repeating your claim.

I am asking you a simple yes or no clarifying question concerning your (weird) claim:

With bold above are you saying that “God” in John 1:1b is a single person, albeit not defined as Father, Son or Holy Spirit ? Yes or No ?
I'm saying he's viewed as the one God. Deut 6:4. It's really not rocket science, and you making it way too complicated.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I'm saying he's viewed as the one God. Deut 6:4. It's really not rocket science, and you making it way too complicated.

One who or one what ? Are you saying Deut. 6:4 views God as one Individual (albeit undefined) or as one “nature” or one “corporation”, etc ? One what ?


Why won’t you answer the simple question?

If someone kept repeating that X is “one Entity,” but they would not tell whether they meant one individual by that, or that they meant a group of three individuals, or a building by it, they are just blabbering something unknown and nonsensical.Just like those folks at Mars Hill .

The one God of the Shema is defined as one Individual, as the Father, at least 9 times, even according to you. You, on the other hand, can’t even tell us how your god is “one,” let alone furnish verse from Scripture which uses it as you do. This is not B Greek or Text Kit where no hardball questions ever come your way. If you can’t handle the heat here, go back there and stop wasting my time.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
When Gryllus says that “God is used as God without respect to Father, Son or Holy Spirit” in John 1:1b, I understand him to be saying that in John 1:1b God refers to one person, though not defined as Father, Son or Holy Spirit. I have asked him to tell me if this is what his statement means. Yet incredibly, he refuses to answer my clarifying question.
 

Gryllus Maior

Well-known member
When Gryllus says that “God is used as God without respect to Father, Son or Holy Spirit” in John 1:1b, I understand him to be saying that in John 1:1b God refers to one person, though not defined as Father, Son or Holy Spirit. I have asked him to tell me if this is what his statement means. Yet incredibly, he refuses to answer my clarifying question.
I answered it several times. Since God is three persons, it can't refer to him as one person. It does refer to him simply as God without specifying which person, which is John laying the groundwork for the extraordinary revelation of the Son. But again, I'm far more interesting in language and linguistics than theology at this point, and this forum is "Biblical languages" so I'm done.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I answered it several times. Since God is three persons, it can't refer to him as one person.

That is the problem you see. In Greek when more than one person is in view the plural form of the noun is used together with the plural form of any verbs which go with that noun. So if “God” in John 1:1b and in Mark 12:29 refers to more than one person ( as you say) we would have had Οἱ Θεοί in both verses, not ὁ Θεὸς. Furthermore we would have had the plural form of the verb εἰσίν and not ἐστιν. Just like when men are in view biblical Greek grammar does not use the singular ἄνθρωπος but the plural οἱ ἄνθρωποι and the plural corresponding verbs. Look at Luke 18:10 for instance:
Ἄνθρωποι δύο ἀνέβησαν εἰς τὸ ἱερὸν προσεύξασθαι, ὁ εἷς Φαρισαῖος καὶ ὁ ἕτερος τελώνης.



It does refer to him simply as God without specifying which person, which is John laying the groundwork for the extraordinary revelation of the Son.
“Him” ? You just told us “ God” in John 1:1b and in Mark 12:29 can’t be referring to one person. So you are making very little grammatical sense by now using the singular form of the pronoun to refer to more than one person, and referring to unknown , “undifferentiated” persons to boot! The biblical Koine grammar rebels against your conception. Please address the grammar problem you have on this score, next post.


But again, I'm far more interesting in language and linguistics than theology at this point, and this forum is "Biblical languages" so I'm done.

Me too! That is why I keep on hoping (and asking ) you to please address the problems your position has with reference to the Greek grammar , yet you have consistently refused to do so.
 

Gryllus Maior

Well-known member
That is the problem you see. In Greek when more than one person is in view the plural form of the noun is used together with the plural form of any verbs which go with that noun. So if “God” in John 1:1b and in Mark 12:29 refers to more than one person ( as you say) we would have had Οἱ Θεοί in both verses, not ὁ Θεὸς. Furthermore we would have had the plural form of the verb εἰσίν and not ἐστιν. Just like when men are in view biblical Greek grammar does not use the singular ἄνθρωπος but the plural οἱ ἄνθρωποι and the plural corresponding verbs. Look at Luke 18:10 for instance:





“Him” ? You just told us “ God” in John 1:1b and in Mark 12:29 can’t be referring to one person. So you are making very little grammatical sense by now using the singular form of the pronoun to refer to more than one person, and referring to unknown , “undifferentiated” persons to boot! The biblical Koine grammar rebels against your conception. Please address the grammar problem you have on this score, next post.




Me too! That is why I keep on hoping (and asking ) you to please address the problems your position has with reference to the Greek grammar , yet you have consistently refused to do so.
Your lack of understanding is not my problem. There is one God. Deut 6:4 gets at that quite directly. Within the godhead are three persons. We therefore can use God to refer to all three persons, or any of them . Your simplistic "have to use the plural thing" has to be adjusted.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Your lack of understanding is not my problem. There is one God. Deut 6:4 gets at that quite directly. Within the godhead are three persons. We therefore can use God to refer to all three persons, or any of them . Your simplistic "have to use the plural thing" has to be adjusted.
That’s maybe how Trinitarianism works, but not how Biblical Koine works. If what you are saying is true, the bible would have had no problem with using the singular noun or pronoun for two or three of the same nature , like maybe ἄνθρωπος (instead of ἄνθρωποι) to denote, say, two or three apostles. That this is not even ever the case with two or three members of your apparent “Trinity,” simply puts your ungrammatical nonsense to rest. Take a look:

καὶ λέγουσιν τοῖς ὄρεσιν καὶ ταῖς πέτραις Πέσετε ἐφ’ ἡμᾶς καὶ κρύψατε ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ καθημένου ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνου καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς τοῦ Ἀρνίου,ὅτι ἦλθεν ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλη τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτῶν, καὶ τίς δύναται σταθῆναι;
 

John Milton

Well-known member
That’s maybe how Trinitarianism works, but not how Biblical Koine works. If what you are saying is true, the bible would have had no problem with using the singular noun or pronoun for two or three of the same nature , like maybe ἄνθρωπος (instead of ἄνθρωποι) to denote, say, two or three apostles. That this is not even ever the case with two or three members of your apparent “Trinity,” simply puts your ungrammatical nonsense to rest. Take a look:
πάντες γὰρ ὑμεῖς εἷς ἐστε ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ...
 

Gryllus Maior

Well-known member
Here's a fun one:


1 Cor 3:8 ὁ φυτεύων δὲ καὶ ὁ ποτίζων ἕν εἰσιν...

To be fair, I don't think there is a real distinction between the use of the neuter ἕν and the masculine εἷς. What type of unity is in view is derived from context, not from the gender of the numeral.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Here's a fun one:


1 Cor 3:8 ὁ φυτεύων δὲ καὶ ὁ ποτίζων ἕν εἰσιν...

To be fair, I don't think there is a real distinction between the use of the neuter ἕν and the masculine εἷς. What type of unity is in view is derived from context, not from the gender of the numeral.

Lol, notice the plural pronoun here (εἰσιν) which demonstrates that the unity is one of common purpose and mission between two persons . Contrast this with the singular form of the verb at Mark 12:29 which demonstrates that only one person is in view:

ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι Πρώτη ἐστίν Ἄκουε, Ἰσραήλ, Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ἡμῶν Κύριος εἷς ἐστιν ,

There is NO way the God of the GNT is a Trinity.
 

Gryllus Maior

Well-known member
Well, for starters we would have had μία instead of ἕν to go with οὐσία. You seem to be getting desperate.
No. θεὸς εἷς ἐν τῇ οὐσίᾳ ἐστιν.
Lol, notice the plural pronoun here (εἰσιν) which demonstrates that the unity is one of common purpose and mission between two persons . Contrast this with the singular form of the verb at Mark 12:29 which demonstrates that only one person is in view:



There is NO way the God of the GNT is a Trinity.
Why should I trust anyone who calls a verb a pronoun?
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
No. θεὸς εἷς ἐν τῇ οὐσίᾳ ἐστιν.

Why should I trust anyone who calls a verb a pronoun?

Nice trickery Gryllus. The problem is that in 1 Tim 2:5 the sentence structure is totally
different than your sentence above:

εἷς γὰρ Θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης Θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων, ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς,

εἷς γὰρ Θεός stands complete as is, there is nothing implied ( so no need for ἐν τῇ οὐσίᾳ ). It is simply saying that there is one God, as opposed to two or three Gods. It is not asserting that there is one God “in essence” ( whatever that means). Similarly, the second part of the verse is saying that there is one Mediator, as opposed to two or three. If εἷς γὰρ Θεός has an implied prepositional phrase, an awkward one at that, then why does not εἷς μεσίτης have one also ? Or does it ? 😀

Also, I know you would like to change the subject to this, though you are not doing much better , but I am more concerned with the original issue we were discussing. About how a singular noun , pronoun or verb never denotes multiple persons in the Greek of the GNT.
 
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