Hebrew Bible older than Aleppo Codex

[Buzzard]

I say then, Hath God cast away his people?
God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite,
of the seed of Abraham,
of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Wot ye not
(do you know not)
what the scripture saith of Elias?
how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets,
and digged down thine altars;
and I am left alone,
and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?
I have reserved to myself seven thousand men,
who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant
according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then it is no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it,
and the rest were blinded.

Romans 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew?
or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that
unto them (the Jew =The Elect) were committed
the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

that would also include the NT
The Words of Christ and the Apostles
============================

That makes ZERO difference. There are basically 2 variants editions of the LXX. There are at least 4 variant editions of the Hebrew. If you're arguing for the DSS being the primary source, then make that argument, otherwise, it doesn't matter. It is nothing but "smoke and mirrors".



I agree this is getting old. However, I am committed to having a reasoned discussion. Then clearly state your position. It is clear to me that you believe any Hebrew script is superior to the LXX. That is DOWNPLAYING the LXX.



I disagree. It hasn't see any Hebrew scholar significantly change their position from reviewing the DSS. Hebrew scholarship give no more than a "handwave" to the LXX. I've seen the "percentages" vary greatly over the years based upon "who is doing the talking... when". By all means, give me an example of LXX priority from the DSS from anyone. I don't care one thing about some scrolls a bunch of people that hated God buried in the desert. If someone will mock Jesus Christ, they will do ANYTHING to see their position succeed. There are much better extant witnesses than any DSS witness. We don't need nor have we ever needed the DSS. It is silly errand to endless argue on what fragmented parchment witnessed to what variant stream of Hebrew texts. If anything, they helped identify the VARIANT nature of the Hebrew edition. We already knew this. We knew this when Jerome could not exclusively use Hebrew witnessed for the Vulgate. THEY DIDN'T EXIST.

I tell you what I prefer. I prefer the apologetic ministry of John the Beloved as he recorded the Eternal words of Jesus Christ saying....

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Just the other day I listened to a Hebrew Scholar denying that the Hebrew word for Messiah only exist one time in the entire Hebrew OT. He was mocking Christians for their LXX tradition. It has happened endlessly to Christians since Jesus Christ brought a "sword" upon this world....

I remind you of the guilt that Paul experienced over the indiscriminate killing of Christians at his own "hands".... all in the "name of God".



You care about mistakes in the KJV made by men that proclaimed to adore Jesus Christ but you refuse to criticize a Hebrew that HATES Jesus Christ. I see a serious problem here. I've seen it for many many years among textual critics. The KJVO position is flawed. So is the Hebrew Only/PREFERRED position you hold. In fact, I see more of a impacting issue with how Christianity abandoned the LXX because of the work of Jerome.



Just like any extant witness, there are perfect parts. Claiming a collection is perfect is extraordinarily reckless. As I said here many times. Codex Alexandrinus is as close as it gets. Much closer than any edition of the Hebrew OT. The OT is chastened by the NT and the enduring teachings of the apostles.

In Codex Alexandrinus, you have a lasting and enduring witness to the teaching of the early church. You will not find this in the MT nor those who support it.

Do you know what happens when I tell Orthodox Israeli Nationals this fact, they hate me. They literally hate me. You know why. Just like Jesus said....

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

I believe Matthew 12:30 is true and perfect. Get TOV to admit that to you....... Get Tov to admit that John 5:46 is true.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

I disagree. It hasn't see any Hebrew scholar significantly change their position from reviewing the DSS. Hebrew scholarship give no more than a "handwave" to the LXX. I've seen the "percentages" vary greatly over the years based upon "who is doing the talking... when". By all means, give me an example of LXX priority from the DSS from anyone. I don't care one thing about some scrolls a bunch of people that hated God buried in the desert. If someone will mock Jesus Christ, they will do ANYTHING to see their position succeed.

christ_undivided said:
I disagree. It hasn't see any Hebrew scholar significantly change their position from reviewing the DSS. Hebrew scholarship give no more than a "handwave" to the LXX. I've seen the "percentages" vary greatly over the years based upon "who is doing the talking... when". By all means, give me an example of LXX priority from the DSS from anyone. I don't care one thing about some scrolls a bunch of people that hated God buried in the desert. If someone will mock Jesus Christ, they will do ANYTHING to see their position succeed.
=====================================end christ undivided

I just don't think the "Jews" Paul spake of were
"a bunch of people that hated God"

christ_undivided said:
You care about mistakes in the KJV made by men that proclaimed to adore Jesus Christ but you refuse to criticize a Hebrew that HATES Jesus Christ. I see a serious problem here. I've seen it for many many years among textual critics. The KJVO position is flawed. So is the Hebrew Only/PREFERRED position you hold. In fact, I see more of a impacting issue with how Christianity abandoned the LXX because of the work of Jerome.
====================================end christ undivided

​

And Jesus answered and said unto them,​

Take heed that no man deceive you.​

​

5 For many shall come in my name,​

saying,​

I am Christ; and shall deceive many.​

by men that proclaimed to adore Jesus Christ

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,​

and shall shew great signs and wonders;​

insomuch that, if it were possible,​

they shall deceive the very elect.​

//

 

[christ_undivided]

I say then, Hath God cast away his people?
God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite,
of the seed of Abraham,
of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Wot ye not
(do you know not)
what the scripture saith of Elias?
how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets,
and digged down thine altars;
and I am left alone,
and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?
I have reserved to myself seven thousand men,
who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant
according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then it is no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it,
and the rest were blinded.

Romans 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew?
or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that
unto them (the Jew =The Elect) were committed
the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

that would also include the NT
The Words of Christ and the Apostles
============================





christ_undivided said:
I disagree. It hasn't see any Hebrew scholar significantly change their position from reviewing the DSS. Hebrew scholarship give no more than a "handwave" to the LXX. I've seen the "percentages" vary greatly over the years based upon "who is doing the talking... when". By all means, give me an example of LXX priority from the DSS from anyone. I don't care one thing about some scrolls a bunch of people that hated God buried in the desert. If someone will mock Jesus Christ, they will do ANYTHING to see their position succeed.
=====================================end christ undivided

I just don't think the "Jews" Paul spake of were
"a bunch of people that hated God"

christ_undivided said:
You care about mistakes in the KJV made by men that proclaimed to adore Jesus Christ but you refuse to criticize a Hebrew that HATES Jesus Christ. I see a serious problem here. I've seen it for many many years among textual critics. The KJVO position is flawed. So is the Hebrew Only/PREFERRED position you hold. In fact, I see more of a impacting issue with how Christianity abandoned the LXX because of the work of Jerome.
====================================end christ undivided

​

And Jesus answered and said unto them,​

Take heed that no man deceive you.​

​

5 For many shall come in my name,​

saying,​

I am Christ; and shall deceive many.​

by men that proclaimed to adore Jesus Christ

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,​

and shall shew great signs and wonders;​

insomuch that, if it were possible,​

they shall deceive the very elect.​

//

There is no Jew without faith in Jesus Christ. You're selectively quoting the Scriptures. Here... include a few more in your "equation"....

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Jews are Christians or they are destined for Eternal Damnation.

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Jesus Himself witnessed to their damnation.

Joh 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus witnessed to some of the children of Abraham being the children of the devil.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
You Are of Your Father the Devil
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I'm not saying all those of National Israel are damned. Thank God not. However, there is NO Eternal establishment of a Jew apart from faith in Jesus Christ. All the apostles were Jews. Every single one of them. Jews that expressed endearing faith in Jesus Christ.

These "scholars" being referenced hate Jesus Christ.

Besides. Israel Nationals have so intermarried among Gentiles for countless generations they have not claim to Abraham anymore.

Eze 16:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

We are all of the same blood in Adam. There is no superior race on this earth. This one of the distinguishing facets that separates Christianity from the rest of the religions of men. It teaches that ALL men are equal and there is ONLY ONE HEIR of Abraham. That SINGULAR HEIR is Jesus Christ.

Learn your bible.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[Shoonra]

I am sorry I started this thread. I thought it would bring out serious scholarly comment, but instead it has provoked unrelated animosity, including Jew-baiting.

 

[christ_undivided]

I am sorry I started this thread. I thought it would bring out serious scholarly comment, but instead it has provoked unrelated animosity, including Jew-baiting.

Not true. I'm dealing with the Theological significance of LATE Hebrew manuscripts and their place in the Christian community.

You are upset because I've have mentioned the dangers of believing faithless men that CLAIM Jewish heritage in Abraham. Apparently, you find comfort in the council of such men. That is a mistake. Feel free to defend your position but I don't expect such from you. You simply can't defend your position.

I love the apostles of Christianity. Men of faith. Jews both Eternally and Inwardly. I treasure their council and their words. Appealing to men that reject Jesus Christ isn't very wise.

It is obvious to me that you believe there is a superior race on this earth while I believe all men are created equal. Gentiles are sinners, so are Jews. I treat them equally.

Do you accept the canonicity of the NT? I believe that is a fair question to ask you. I've tried to get you to witness to your position in Jesus Christ but you have refused.

Here. I will share some words from a Hebrew. A man of faith. Wise. I love this man and treasure what he has written to us.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Jesus Christ is the only Heir of Abraham with any promises. There is no other heir. We either stand in Him or we stand with Satan. ALL men are faced with the same challenge.

 

[Buzzard]

Two Woman mentioned in Proverbs

The Wise Lady -<vs>- the Foolish Woman

Wisdom hath builded her house,​

she hath hewn out her seven pillars:​

She hath killed her beasts;​

she hath mingled her wine;​

she hath also furnished her table.​

​

3 She hath sent forth her maidens:​

she crieth upon the highest places of the city,​

Whoso is simple,​

let him turn in hither:​

as for him that wanteth understanding,​

​

she saith to him,​

​

5 Come, eat of my bread,​

and drink of the wine which I have mingled.​

Forsake the foolish, and live;​

and go in the way of understanding.​

and the Foolish Woman

A foolish woman is clamorous:​

she is simple, and knoweth nothing.​

​

14 For she sitteth at the door of her house,​

on a seat in the high places of the city,​

​

15 To call passengers who go right on their ways:​

​

16 Whoso is simple,​

let him turn in hither:​

and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,​

​

17 Stolen waters are sweet,​

and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.​

​

18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there;​

and that her guests are in the depths of hell.​

both saying the same things

​

-----------The Wise Lady-------------​

She hath sent forth her maidens:​

she crieth upon the highest places of the city,​

​

4 Whoso is simple,​

let him turn in hither:​

as for him that wanteth understanding,​

​

------------the Foolish-----------​

​

To call passengers who go right on their ways:​

Whoso is simple,​

let him turn in hither:​

and as for him that wanteth understanding,​

The Wise Lady has the Truth
but one is a Theif and a Robber

​

Stolen waters are sweet,​

and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.​

​

18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there;​

and that her guests are in the depths of hell.​

​

===========================================

Two Trees in Paul's letter to the Romans
Good Native Olive Tree -<vs>- Wild Evil Olive

Romans 11:1​

I say then,​

Hath God cast away his people?​

God forbid.​

(Physcialy)​

For I also am an Israelite,​

of the seed of Abraham,​

of the tribe of Benjamin.​

....​

For I speak to you Gentiles,​

inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,​

I magnify mine office:​

..​

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy:​

and if the root be holy, so are the branches.​

​

17 And if some of the branches be broken off,​

and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them,​

and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;​

​

18 Boast not against the branches.​

(as Paul says of all these Gentiles)​

But if thou boast,​

thou bearest not the root,​

​

and​

​

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature,​

(the Foolish Woman, the wild evil Tree)​

and wert grafted contrary to nature​

into a good olive tree:​

how much more shall these,​

which be the natural branches,​

be grafted into their own olive tree?​

as Paul says​

but as touching the election,
they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[christ_undivided]

Two Woman mentioned in Proverbs

The Wise Lady -<vs>- the Foolish Woman

Wisdom hath builded her house,​

she hath hewn out her seven pillars:​

She hath killed her beasts;​

she hath mingled her wine;​

she hath also furnished her table.​

​

3 She hath sent forth her maidens:​

she crieth upon the highest places of the city,​

Whoso is simple,​

let him turn in hither:​

as for him that wanteth understanding,​

​

she saith to him,​

​

5 Come, eat of my bread,​

and drink of the wine which I have mingled.​

Forsake the foolish, and live;​

and go in the way of understanding.​

and the Foolish Woman

A foolish woman is clamorous:​

she is simple, and knoweth nothing.​

​

14 For she sitteth at the door of her house,​

on a seat in the high places of the city,​

​

15 To call passengers who go right on their ways:​

​

16 Whoso is simple,​

let him turn in hither:​

and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,​

​

17 Stolen waters are sweet,​

and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.​

​

18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there;​

and that her guests are in the depths of hell.​

both saying the same things

​

-----------The Wise Lady-------------​

She hath sent forth her maidens:​

she crieth upon the highest places of the city,​

​

4 Whoso is simple,​

let him turn in hither:​

as for him that wanteth understanding,​

​

------------the Foolish-----------​

​

To call passengers who go right on their ways:​

Whoso is simple,​

let him turn in hither:​

and as for him that wanteth understanding,​

The Wise Lady has the Truth
but one is a Theif and a Robber

​

Stolen waters are sweet,​

and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.​

​

18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there;​

and that her guests are in the depths of hell.​

​

===========================================

Two Trees in Paul's letter to the Romans
Good Native Olive Tree -<vs>- Wild Evil Olive

Romans 11:1​

I say then,​

Hath God cast away his people?​

God forbid.​

(Physcialy)​

For I also am an Israelite,​

of the seed of Abraham,​

of the tribe of Benjamin.​

....​

For I speak to you Gentiles,​

inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,​

I magnify mine office:​

..​

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy:​

and if the root be holy, so are the branches.​

​

17 And if some of the branches be broken off,​

and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them,​

and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;​

​

18 Boast not against the branches.​

(as Paul says of all these Gentiles)​

But if thou boast,​

thou bearest not the root,​

​

and​

​

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature,​

(the Foolish Woman, the wild evil Tree)​

and wert grafted contrary to nature​

into a good olive tree:​

how much more shall these,​

which be the natural branches,​

be grafted into their own olive tree?​

as Paul says​

but as touching the election,
they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Who is boasting against anyone? I'm not. I'm plowing and leveling the ground. You're the one promoting a race of people above other Christians. Not me. You are.

As I have repeatedly said. The apostles were Jews. There is no JEW without faith. So when you talk of Jews, be sure to insist that they are a people of faith in Jesus Christ. Paul isn't reference those that claim God absent faith in Jesus Christ. That is the false teaching of Dispensationalism.

The Heir of Abraham is Jesus Christ. There is no other heir. Only ONE SEED. That isn't boasting against anyone. That is stating the facts and promoting the rightful position of Jesus Christ among mankind.

I love Jesus Christ. He alone is worthy of praise. He alone is Wisdom and Honor and Praise. Below Him, the ground is level.

We have the NT works of faith Jews. We have the faith work of the LXX that these same men used. They are superior to any teachings from men that hate Jesus Christ.

 

[Buzzard]

.......

Shoonra said:
I am sorry I started this thread. I thought it would bring out serious scholarly comment, but instead it has provoked unrelated animosity, including Jew-baiting.
===================================== end Shoonra post

hang on; we will get there
but 1st we have to establish who these men are

Rev.11:1
And after these things I saw four angels
standing on the four corners of the earth,
holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth,
nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God:
and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels,
to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying,
Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees,
till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed:
and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand
of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
............

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,
and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,
having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven,
as the voice of many waters,
and as the voice of a great thunder:
and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,
and before the four beasts, and the elders:
and no man could learn that song
but the hundred and forty and four thousand,
which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men,
being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile:
for they are without fault before the throne of God.​

These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins.
undefiled by the ole Gentile Whore
nor
her Harlot Daughters

 

[christ_undivided]

.......

Shoonra said:
I am sorry I started this thread. I thought it would bring out serious scholarly comment, but instead it has provoked unrelated animosity, including Jew-baiting.
===================================== end Shoonra post

hang on; we will get there
but 1st we have to establish who these men are

Rev.11:1​

And after these things I saw four angels​

standing on the four corners of the earth,​

holding the four winds of the earth,​

that the wind should not blow on the earth,​

nor on the sea, nor on any tree.​

​

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east,​

having the seal of the living God:​

and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels,​

to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,​

​

3 Saying,​

Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees,​

till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.​

​

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed:​

and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand​

of all the tribes of the children of Israel.​

​

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.​

​

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.​

​

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.​

............​

​

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,​

and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,​

having his Father's name written in their foreheads.​

​

2 And I heard a voice from heaven,​

as the voice of many waters,​

and as the voice of a great thunder:​

and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:​

​

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,​

and before the four beasts, and the elders:​

and no man could learn that song​

but the hundred and forty and four thousand,​

which were redeemed from the earth.​

​

4 These are they which were not defiled with women;​

for they are virgins.​

These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.​

These were redeemed from among men,​

being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.​

​

5 And in their mouth was found no guile:​

for they are without fault before the throne of God.​

These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins.
undefiled by the ole Gentile Whore
nor
her Harlot Daughters

So there are only 144,000? You do realize these are mentioned as only being men. If what you say is true, there are no Jewish women....

" These are they which were not defiled with women;".

You're all over the place. I will agree that modern "Orthodox" Judaism is RULED by misogynistic men.

 

[Unbound68]

....hang on; we will get there
but 1st we have to establish who these men are

Rev.11:1​

And after these things I saw four angels​

standing on the four corners of the earth,​

holding the four winds of the earth,​

that the wind should not blow on the earth,​

nor on the sea, nor on any tree.​

​

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east,​

having the seal of the living God:​

and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels,​

to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,​

​

3 Saying,​

Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees,​

till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.​

​

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed:​

and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand​

of all the tribes of the children of Israel.​

​

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.​

​

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.​

​

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.​

Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.​

............​

​

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,​

and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,​

having his Father's name written in their foreheads.​

​

2 And I heard a voice from heaven,​

as the voice of many waters,​

and as the voice of a great thunder:​

and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:​

​

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,​

and before the four beasts, and the elders:​

and no man could learn that song​

but the hundred and forty and four thousand,​

which were redeemed from the earth.​

​

4 These are they which were not defiled with women;​

for they are virgins.​

These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.​

These were redeemed from among men,​

being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.​

​

5 And in their mouth was found no guile:​

for they are without fault before the throne of God.​

These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins.
undefiled by the ole Gentile Whore
nor
her Harlot Daughters

oh good grief.

 

[Buzzard]

"These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins."

undefiled by the deceptions and deceit
of ole Gentile Whore
nor
her Harlot Daughters

Come down, and sit in the dust,​

O virgin daughter of Babylon,​

sit on the ground: there is no throne,​

​

O daughter of the Chaldeans:​

for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.​

​

2 Take the millstones, and grind meal:​

uncover thy locks, make bare the leg,​

uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.​

​

3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered,​

yea, thy shame shall be seen:​

​

Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness,​

O daughter of the Chaldeans:​

for thou shalt no more be called,​

The lady of kingdoms.​

...​

​

For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness:​

thou hast said,​

None seeth me.​

Thy wisdom and thy knowledge,​

it hath perverted thee;​

and thou hast said in thine heart,​

I am, and none else beside me.​

...

 

[Buzzard]

"These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins."

undefiled by the deceptions and deceit
of the ole Gentile Whore
nor
her Harlot Daughters

Song of Solomon
and the Harlots ask

SoS 5:9​

What is thy beloved (Jesus) more than another beloved, (Jesus)​

O thou fairest among women?​

what is thy beloved (Husband) more than another (Husband) beloved,​

that thou dost so charge us?​

Paul says

But I fear, lest by any means,​

as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,​

so your minds should be corrupted​

from the simplicity that is in Christ.​

​

4 For if he that cometh preacheth​

another Jesus,​

whom we have not preached,​

or if ye receive another spirit,​

which ye have not received,​

or another gospel,​

which ye have not accepted,​

........​

another Jesus, - another gospel,
Gal. 2:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him
that called you into the grace of Christ
unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another;
but there be some that trouble you,
and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven,
preach any other gospel unto you
than that which we have preached unto you,
let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again,
if any man preach any other gospel unto you
than that ye have received,
let him be accursed.
...

 

[Shoonra]

I make one last effort, citing a Methodist source:
https://www.smu.edu/News/Featured/Worlds-earliest-most-complete-Hebrew-Bible-coming-to-SMU

I have also discovered that the Codex Sassoon (symbol is "S1") was consulted, along with dozens of other authorities, when the Jerusalem Crown edition was being worked up:
Yosef Ofer, The Preparation of the "Jerusalem Crown" Edition of the Bible Text, Hebrew Studies (Nat'l Assn of Professors of Hebrew) vol. 44 (2003) pages 87-117, available on JSTOR and Project Muse.

 

[christ_undivided]

I make one last effort, citing a Methodist source:
https://www.smu.edu/News/Featured/Worlds-earliest-most-complete-Hebrew-Bible-coming-to-SMU

I have also discovered that the Codex Sassoon (symbol is "S1") was consulted, along with dozens of other authorities, when the Jerusalem Crown edition was being worked up:
Yosef Ofer, The Preparation of the "Jerusalem Crown" Edition of the Bible Text, Hebrew Studies (Nat'l Assn of Professors of Hebrew) vol. 44 (2003) pages 87-117, available on JSTOR and Project Muse.

From this "Methodist" article.....

"The Codex Sassoon now stands as the earliest most complete Hebrew Bible extent, and provides the basis of Biblical translations used today by Jews and Christians. Islam also teaches that the Torah and Psalms contained within the Hebrew Bible are divinely revealed book"

This statement is NOT true. This edition does not provide the basis for translation used today by the Jews and Christian community. This is a false attempt to define a "standard" that does not exist. There are several deviations from this practice throughout Christianity. The Greek Orthodox church has a VERY LONG and EXTENSIVE history of using the LXX. There are varying canonical definitions throughout various denominations. I'm not going to name them all. You should already know them already. There are plenty of Christians that name the name of Jesus Christ that find no need to use this edition/addition as THEIR standards.

 

[Conan]

The overwhelming vast majority of English Bibles use the Hebrew for the Old Testament. True they consult and sometimes use the Greek, Syriac and Latin Readings, but mostly the translations are from the Hebrew.

 

[christ_undivided]

The overwhelming vast majority of English Bibles use the Hebrew for the Old Testament. True they consult and sometimes use the Greek, Syriac and Latin Readings, but mostly the translations are from the Hebrew.

So English Bibles are standard now? I thought you didn't support English translations as standards?

I know I don't. Why should anyone? There are too many variable word choices in English to rely upon such things. This also somewhat true of Hebrew. People simply pretend that the "Hebrew Bible" is really a "Hebrew Bible". As I've mentioned before and it was ignored, Modern Hebrew is not the Hebrew of Moses. Even the LXX is a translation of a translated Hebrew source.

Can you definitely state that you believe the MT or this "Sasson" edition is NOT a translation of the words of Moses?

I readily admit the LXX is a translations of a translated Hebrew edition. You may believe Ezra-Nehemiah had the very words of Moses but that is a belief. There is no evidence to turns such a belief into fact.

 

[Shoonra]

Don't be obtuse.

What evidence do you have that the Hebrew text was translated from some other language? And what was that language?

Another article with additional details about the Sassoon Codex:
https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/codex-sassoon-0018146

 

[christ_undivided]

Don't be obtuse.

What evidence do you have that the Hebrew text was translated from some other language? And what was that language?

Another article with additional details about the Sassoon Codex:
https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/codex-sassoon-0018146

There you are..... That is a very familiar response.

I've already said this. It is rather easy to understand. Not difficult at all. I'll repeat myself.....

The modern block scripts of the Hebrew language is NOT the script of Moses. Not even close. All you have to do is compare this modern script with any extant archeological reference. You can see it for yourself.

For you to insist that the late block script currently used isn't an historical derivative of ancient Hebrew is ridiculous. If you had reviewed the ancient written Hebrew language, you would know this. Either you don't know or you're ignore these facts. We have no idea what the actual script of ancient Hebrew looked like. There is ZERO doubt that derivative works are no better than translations. Block Hebrew script manuscripts are NOT COPIES. Anyone claiming they are COPIES is lying to you.

I can provide the evidence but I'm not waste my time if you're just going to ignore it. If you commit to respond, I will provide it.

 

[christ_undivided]

Here is a quick reference to a Paleo-Hebrew manuscript among the DSS.

Paleo-Hebrew Leviticus Scroll - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[christ_undivided]

Here they are together.




To be clear. Paleo-Hebrew is not the language/script of Moses. There is a "Urtext" theory that there is a common origin for both. However, there are no extant examples.

 

[christ_undivided]

Here is a quick references to one of the oldest witness to the Paleo-Hebrew script. There maybe older examples that have recently been found in ancient tomb in Jerusalem. There is one that survived many raids over the century because the ceiling had collapsed and buried previous artifacts so that robbers didn't notice it. A curious boy with a small hammer discovered it. It is truly an interesting story. I can't remember the name of the archeologist behind the discovery.