Hebrews 1:10 - A Major Trinitarian Blunder

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands...
Hebrews 1:10

In the bizarro whacky world of Trinitarianism, this is God the Father speaking to God the Son.

The Hebrews writer here is quoting Psalm 102:25-27. So let's go and read Psalm 102 to see God the Father speaking to God the Son as Trinitarians claim:

I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.
25 “Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 “Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.
27 “But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.


Well look at that. The Father said this did He? Look, the Father just referred to Jesus as His God? I always thought it was the other way around.

Trinitarians get real. Do you really expect anyone to believe this ridiculous claim of yours?
 
And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands...
Hebrews 1:10

In the bizarro whacky world of Trinitarianism, this is God the Father speaking to God the Son.

The Hebrews writer here is quoting Psalm 102:25-27. So let's go and read Psalm 102 to see God the Father speaking to God the Son as Trinitarians claim:

I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.
25 “Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 “Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.
27 “But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.


Well look at that. The Father said this did He? Look, the Father just referred to Jesus as His God? I always thought it was the other way around.

Trinitarians get real. Do you really expect anyone to believe this ridiculous claim of yours?
Yes this is quite ridiculous of the trins also, for in verse 9 the author just got through quoting Psalm 45:7 and speaking of Jesus' God who anointed him and it was upon this note that he then moved right into Psalms 102:25-28 and still speaking of the God who anointed Jesus the Son.

It is the flow of the context but don't expect trins to be able to see or acknowledge this fact, because they won't.
 

Stephen

Active member
They are so shameful that it doesn't phase the NIV translators at all to impose their doctrine into the translation of that verse:

He [referring to God] also says, "In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.



However, looking at the CEV, I may just have to give that a gander in the coming year as it is less doctrinally biased (at least in that verse):

The Scriptures also say, "In the beginning, Lord, you were the one who laid the foundation of the earth and created the heavens
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
They are so shameful that it doesn't phase the NIV translators at all to impose their doctrine into the translation of that verse:

He [referring to God] also says, "In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.



However, looking at the CEV, I may just have to give that a gander in the coming year as it is less doctrinally biased (at least in that verse):

The Scriptures also say, "In the beginning, Lord, you were the one who laid the foundation of the earth and created the heavens

The CEV has it exactly right for verse 10 but blew it in verse 8. Looks like they fluked verse 10

Hebrews 1:6 and 1:7 and 1:8-9 and 1:10-12 are not what God says but what Scripture says. God is not the speaker in any of the Psalms quoted between verse 6 and 12. Greek legei is translated as "HE says" to make it look like God is the speaker but he isn't. Notice that God would be speaking about himself in the 3rd person in verses 6 and 7. But he isn't the speaker, someone else is, and that is why it is 3rd person. Greek legei is used routinely in the NT for what Scripture says and that is why the writer changed verbs from verse 5 to 6 and back again in verse 13 when God again is the speaker. Verses 6 and 7 should be translated as "IT says."
 
The CEV has it exactly right for verse 10 but blew it in verse 8. Looks like they fluked verse 10

Hebrews 1:6 and 1:7 and 1:8-9 and 1:10-12 are not what God says but what Scripture says. God is not the speaker in any of the Psalms quoted between verse 6 and 12. Greek legei is translated as "HE says" to make it look like God is the speaker but he isn't. Notice that God would be speaking about himself in the 3rd person in verses 6 and 7. But he isn't the speaker, someone else is, and that is why it is 3rd person. Greek legei is used routinely in the NT for what Scripture says and that is why the writer changed verbs from verse 5 to 6 and back again in verse 13 when God again is the speaker. Verses 6 and 7 should be translated as "IT says."
I believe that it should have been translated like this "And you Lord in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth, etc, etc, and the reason why, is because the writer of Hebrews just got through quoting Psalm 45:7 about the God of the Son who anointed him.

Then right after this, he went right into Psalm 102:25-28 to speak more about the Son's God who anointed him and in fact the verse in the Interlinear on the Bible Hub reads that way.

It doesn't read "He says" at all but rather "and you Lord (Yahweh)" instead.
 

OldShepherd

Active member
However, looking at the CEV, I may just have to give that a gander in the coming year as it is less doctrinally biased (at least in that verse):
How many credit hours of Hebrew and Greek do you have? What makes you qualified to determine that the CEV alone is correctly translated?
What this is is the usual heterodox cherry picking versions etc. which support their heterodox assumptions/presuppositions. If you want a truly unbiased version I suggest the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation of the T'nakh [Old Testament] and the Eastern Orthodox translation of the New Testament both available free online.
 

Stephen

Active member
How many credit hours of Hebrew and Greek do you have?

0.

I can however read English. Being able to read and comprehend English, I can note that the quotation in Hebrews 1:10 isn't one of God speaking but rather the psalmist is speaking. Further I can note that the writer to the Hebrews only uses pronouns to identify say somebody is speaking through the 7 scripture quotations in the chapter and it is up to the reader to know who the speaker is. And as a responsible bible student, I went and looked up who the speaker is, and it isn't God like the NIV suggests, it is the Psalmist as the CEV more correctly suggests.


What makes you qualified to determine that the CEV alone is correctly translated?

There isn't any evidence suggesting that I determined the "CEV alone is correctly translated" or even that the CEV is "correctly translated". I stated "it is less doctrinally biased (at least in that verse)" and I made that determination based on English reading comprehension.


What this is is the usual heterodox cherry picking versions etc. which support their heterodox assumptions/presuppositions. If you want a truly unbiased version I suggest the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation of the T'nakh [Old Testament] and the Eastern Orthodox translation of the New Testament both available free online.

I'm sure they are fine translations.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands...
Hebrews 1:10

In the bizarro whacky world of Trinitarianism, this is God the Father speaking to God the Son.

The Hebrews writer here is quoting Psalm 102:25-27. So let's go and read Psalm 102 to see God the Father speaking to God the Son as Trinitarians claim:

I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.
25 “Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 “Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.
27 “But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.


Well look at that. The Father said this did He? Look, the Father just referred to Jesus as His God? I always thought it was the other way around.

Trinitarians get real. Do you really expect anyone to believe this ridiculous claim of yours?
From 1:5-12 it is obvious The Father is speaking to and about His Son.
Case closed.
 
And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands...
Hebrews 1:10

In the bizarro whacky world of Trinitarianism, this is God the Father speaking to God the Son.

The Hebrews writer here is quoting Psalm 102:25-27. So let's go and read Psalm 102 to see God the Father speaking to God the Son as Trinitarians claim:

I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.
25 “Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 “Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.
27 “But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.


Well look at that. The Father said this did He? Look, the Father just referred to Jesus as His God? I always thought it was the other way around.

Trinitarians get real. Do you really expect anyone to believe this ridiculous claim of yours?

Thank you for admitting that Psalm 102:25:-27 is in reference to God. So, why did the author of Hebrews apply Psalm 102 as a statement from the Father to the Son? If you doubt this reality, here is the argumentative structure of Hebrews 1:

v5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
(cites Psalm 2:7)
Or again,
(cites 2 Sam 7:14)
v6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
(cites Deut 32:43)
v7 Of the angels he says,
(cites Psalm 104:4)
v8 But of the Son he says,
(cites Psalm 45:6-7)
v10 And,
(cites Psalm 102:25-27)
v13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
(cites Psalm 110:1)

So, that's seven sayings from the OT, attributed to the Father to justify "having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs." The first three are clearly said to the Son. The forth is said to angels in contrast. The fifth is clearly said of the Son. The seventh is contrasted to angels making it said to the Son as well. Why wouldn't the sixth likewise applied to the Son given 1) it connected to the fifth with an "and", 2) all the other statements are said by the Father, why not the sixth one, 3) such would set forth a patter of 3-1-3 adding up to seven for easy of memorization using Biblically significant numbers, 4) given the compare and contrast, the only other option for who is being talked about in v10-12 would be the angels, which doesn't seem to fit, and 5) nothing at all in the context would lead one to see v10-12 to be said describing the Father as opposed to the Son.

In short, this Trinitarian understanding is based upon what was written by the author of Hebrews. What in the structure of Hebrews 1 tells you this citation is in reference to God the Father as opposed to God the Son? And, if Hebrew 1:10-12 is said by the Father about the Son, then wouldn't that support the Trinitarian Theology?

God Bless
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Thank you for admitting that Psalm 102:25:-27 is in reference to God.

God is NOT the speaker in Psalm 102.


So, why did the author of Hebrews apply Psalm 102 as a statement from the Father to the Son?

He didn't. But liars like to do so.

If you doubt this reality, here is the argumentative structure of Hebrews 1:

v5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
(cites Psalm 2:7)

Yep God is the speaker here.

Or again,
(cites 2 Sam 7:14)
v6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
(cites Deut 32:43)
God is not the speaker here. Moses is.
And no the Greek text doesn't day he is.

v7 Of the angels he says,
(cites Psalm 104:4)
God is not the speaker here. The Psalmist is.
And no the Greek text doesn't day he is.

Are you sure you want God the Father to be the speaker in Psalm 104?

Bless the Lord, O my soul!
O Lord my God
, You are very great;
You are clothed with splendor and majesty,
2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak,
Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain.
3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters;
He makes the clouds His chariot;
He walks upon the wings of the wind;
4 He makes the winds His messengers,
Flaming fire His ministers.


Wow, according to you the Father has a God!

v8 But of the Son he says,
(cites Psalm 45:6-7)
Sorry, "he says" not in the Greek text.
And no, God is not the speaker at Psalm 45 either.
But liars keeping trying to claim that He is.

v10 And,
(cites Psalm 102:25-27)

No, God is not the speaker here. The Psalmist is the speaker. Are you sure you want God the Father calling God the Son, "O my God"?? Hmmm?

I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.
25 “Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 “Even they will perish, but You endure;
Psalm 102

Wow, according to you, God the Father's God is Jesus!

Or are you just utterly blind?

v13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
(cites Psalm 110:1)

So, that's seven sayings from the OT, attributed to the Father to justify "having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs." The first three are clearly said to the Son. The forth is said to angels in contrast. The fifth is clearly said of the Son. The seventh is contrasted to angels making it said to the Son as well. Why wouldn't the sixth likewise applied to the Son given 1) it connected to the fifth with an "and", 2) all the other statements are said by the Father, why not the sixth one, 3) such would set forth a patter of 3-1-3 adding up to seven for easy of memorization using Biblically significant numbers, 4) given the compare and contrast, the only other option for who is being talked about in v10-12 would be the angels, which doesn't seem to fit, and 5) nothing at all in the context would lead one to see v10-12 to be said describing the Father as opposed to the Son.

In short, this Trinitarian understanding is based upon what was written by the author of Hebrews. What in the structure of Hebrews 1 tells you this citation is in reference to God the Father as opposed to God the Son? And, if Hebrew 1:10-12 is said by the Father about the Son, then wouldn't that support the Trinitarian Theology?

God Bless
 
Thank you for admitting that Psalm 102:25:-27 is in reference to God. So, why did the author of Hebrews apply Psalm 102 as a statement from the Father to the Son? If you doubt this reality, here is the argumentative structure of Hebrews 1:

v5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
(cites Psalm 2:7)
Or again,
(cites 2 Sam 7:14)
v6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
(cites Deut 32:43)
v7 Of the angels he says,
(cites Psalm 104:4)
v8 But of the Son he says,
(cites Psalm 45:6-7)
v10 And,
(cites Psalm 102:25-27)
v13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
(cites Psalm 110:1)

So, that's seven sayings from the OT, attributed to the Father to justify "having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs." The first three are clearly said to the Son. The forth is said to angels in contrast. The fifth is clearly said of the Son. The seventh is contrasted to angels making it said to the Son as well. Why wouldn't the sixth likewise applied to the Son given 1) it connected to the fifth with an "and", 2) all the other statements are said by the Father, why not the sixth one, 3) such would set forth a patter of 3-1-3 adding up to seven for easy of memorization using Biblically significant numbers, 4) given the compare and contrast, the only other option for who is being talked about in v10-12 would be the angels, which doesn't seem to fit, and 5) nothing at all in the context would lead one to see v10-12 to be said describing the Father as opposed to the Son.

In short, this Trinitarian understanding is based upon what was written by the author of Hebrews. What in the structure of Hebrews 1 tells you this citation is in reference to God the Father as opposed to God the Son? And, if Hebrew 1:10-12 is said by the Father about the Son, then wouldn't that support the Trinitarian Theology?

God Bless
The writer of Hebrews is by no means applying Psalm 102:25-27 to the Son but rather unto the God who anointed him from verse 9 and which follows the flow of the context.

Hebrews 1:8-10​

New American Standard Bible​

8 But regarding the Son He says,
“Your throne, God, is forever and ever,
And the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of [a]His kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your companions.”
10 And,
“You (still speaking of the God who anointed the Son from verse 9), Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will wear out like a garment,
12 And like a robe You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”

Therefore because Yahweh his Father abides forever and never changes, and because Yahweh God created all things for his purpose and plan through and in his human heir and Son Jesus Christ, therefore his promise to David through Jesus also stands firm.

Thus, Jesus as Yahweh God's human heir and Son will also abide forever on the throne of his Father Yahweh and he will rule all nations with a rod of iron as per Psalm 2 and Rev 12:5.


13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,

“Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies
A footstool for Your feet”?

By the way, God is not the speaker at Hebrews 1:10-12 nor in Psalm 102:25-28 but rather the Psalmist was speaking and the writer of Hebrew also understood this and that is why he said "and you" before quoting Psalm 102:25-28 and instead of how the NIV falsely translates the passage as "He also says" and which was not how it reads in the original.
 
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The writer of Hebrews is by no means applying Psalm 102:25-27 to the Son but rather unto the God who anointed him from verse 9 and which follows the flow of the context.

Hebrews 1:8-10​

New American Standard Bible​

8 But regarding the Son He says,
“Your throne, God, is forever and ever,
And the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of [a]His kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your companions.”
10 And,
“You (still speaking of the God who anointed the Son from verse 9), Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will wear out like a garment,
12 And like a robe You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”

Therefore because Yahweh his Father abides forever and never changes, and because Yahweh God created all things for his purpose and plan through and in his human heir and Son Jesus Christ, therefore his promise to David through Jesus also stands firm.

Thus, Jesus as Yahweh God's human heir and Son will also abide forever on the throne of his Father Yahweh and he will rule all nations with a rod of iron as per Psalm 2 and Rev 12:5.


13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,

“Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies
A footstool for Your feet”?

By the way, God is not the speaker at Hebrews 1:10-12 nor in Psalm 102:25-28 but rather the Psalmist was speaking and the writer of Hebrew also understood this and that is why he said "and you" before quoting Psalm 102:25-28 and instead of how the NIV falsely translates the passage as "He also says" and which was not how it reads in the original.
Thank you for expressing the fact that you didn't read a word a wrote, or Hebrews 1 for that matter.

God Bless
 
k
God is NOT the speaker in Psalm 102.




He didn't. But liars like to do so.



Yep God is the speaker here.


God is not the speaker here. Moses is.
And no the Greek text doesn't day he is.


God is not the speaker here. The Psalmist is.
And no the Greek text doesn't day he is.

Are you sure you want God the Father to be the speaker in Psalm 104?

Bless the Lord, O my soul!
O Lord my God
, You are very great;
You are clothed with splendor and majesty,
2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak,
Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain.
3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters;
He makes the clouds His chariot;
He walks upon the wings of the wind;
4 He makes the winds His messengers,
Flaming fire His ministers.


Wow, according to you the Father has a God!


Sorry, "he says" not in the Greek text.
And no, God is not the speaker at Psalm 45 either.
But liars keeping trying to claim that He is.



No, God is not the speaker here. The Psalmist is the speaker. Are you sure you want God the Father calling God the Son, "O my God"?? Hmmm?

I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.
25 “Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 “Even they will perish, but You endure;
Psalm 102

Wow, according to you, God the Father's God is Jesus!

Or are you just utterly blind?
Did you have fun arguing with the author of Hebrews?

God Bless
 
Thank you for expressing the fact that you didn't read a word a wrote, or Hebrews 1 for that matter.

God Bless
What you wrote is irrelevant to the facts about the Psalm and I used to have the whole book of Hebrews minus the 13th chapter memorized and mediated on it quite often also and so I know what it is all about and what I said still stands.

The writer was by no means applying Psalm 102:25-28 to the Son but rather to the God of the Son who anointed him from verse 9.

Also, the Psalm was a prayer of the Psalmist who wrote it and I wouldn't doubt if the writer of Hebrews by inspiration of the Holy Spirit believed that Jesus had prayed it concerning himself and that is why he used it also.
 
What you wrote is irrelevant to the facts about the Psalm and I used to have the whole book of Hebrews minus the 13th chapter memorized and mediated on it quite often also and so I know what it is all about and what I said still stands.

The facts of Psalm 102 are irrelevant to how the Author of Hebrews is using it. You are ignoring the actual wording of Hebrews 1 and condemning yourself in the process.

The writer was by no means applying Psalm 102:25-28 to the Son but rather to the God of the Son who anointed him from verse 9.

Sorry, but that interpretation is laughably bad. You clearly didn't read my argument or Hebrew 1 for that matter.
Here is the argumentative structure of Hebrews 1:


v5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
(cites Psalm 2:7)
Or again,
(cites 2 Sam 7:14)
v6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
(cites Deut 32:43)
v7 Of the angels he says,
(cites Psalm 104:4)
v8 But of the Son he says,
(cites Psalm 45:6-7)
v10 And,
(cites Psalm 102:25-27)
v13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
(cites Psalm 110:1)


What in this context tells you the author of Hebrews is not applying Psalm 102:25-28 to the Son but rather to the God of the Son? Oh yeah, nothing in Hebrew 1 justifies this ludicrous interpretation; your theology does.

Also, the Psalm was a prayer of the Psalmist who wrote it and I wouldn't doubt if the writer of Hebrews by inspiration of the Holy Spirit believed that Jesus had prayed it concerning himself and that is why he used it also.

Hello? All Scripture is breathed out by God. Although the psalmist wrote Psalm 102 as a prayer, the Father Authored the psalm through the psalmist making it his words too. This excuse is truly vacuous.

God Bless
 
You seem to have Trinitarian lies confused with what the Hebrews writer actually said.

Nope, but given that you didn't actually read my comments, how would you know? Seriously, if you can't read more than one phrase at a time, then you haven't read what I wrote.

BTW, All Scripture is breathed out by God. No matter what the human author wrote, for whatever reason the human author wrote, the Father Authored every word of Scripture through the human writers making them his words too. Every comment you made referencing the human authors who wrote a particular passage as an attempt to prove the Father didn't write/say such is hereby refuted.

Here is the argumentative structure of Hebrews 1:


v5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
(cites Psalm 2:7)
Or again,
(cites 2 Sam 7:14)
v6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
(cites Deut 32:43)
v7 Of the angels he says,
(cites Psalm 104:4)
v8 But of the Son he says,
(cites Psalm 45:6-7)
v10 And,
(cites Psalm 102:25-27)
v13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
(cites Psalm 110:1)


What in this context tells you the author of Hebrews is not applying Psalm 102:25-28 to the Son but rather to the God of the Son? Oh yeah, nothing in Hebrew 1 justifies this ludicrous interpretation; your theology does.


God Bless
 
The facts of Psalm 102 are irrelevant to how the Author of Hebrews is using it. You are ignoring the actual wording of Hebrews 1 and condemning yourself in the process.

Oh really? Well unfortunately for you, the author of Hebrews didn't give the Son as the referent of Hebrews 1:10-12 but only said "and you" right before quoting Psalm 102:25-28 and still speaking of the God that anointed the Son following the context from verse 9.

The very fact that he quotes Psalms 45:6-7 and which incidentally was first written for the promised anointed to the throne descendants of David and in which the Psalmist makes it clear that the one anointed has a God above him, proves how wrong your doctrine is about this.

For there is only one Yahweh God and Yahweh God has no other God above him.

Therefore we need to understand that although God gives his own title to his representatives as only being his representatives, and as in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9 and in Psalm 82 and here in Psalm 45:6-7 and also in Isaiah 9:6, they are never called by the name of Yahweh God.

Sorry, but that interpretation is laughably bad. You clearly didn't read my argument or Hebrew 1 for that matter.
Here is the argumentative structure of Hebrews 1:


v5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
(cites Psalm 2:7)
Or again,
(cites 2 Sam 7:14)
v6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
(cites Deut 32:43)
v7 Of the angels he says,
(cites Psalm 104:4)
v8 But of the Son he says,
(cites Psalm 45:6-7)
v10 And,
(cites Psalm 102:25-27)
v13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
(cites Psalm 110:1)


What in this context tells you the author of Hebrews is not applying Psalm 102:25-28 to the Son but rather to the God of the Son? Oh yeah, nothing in Hebrew 1 justifies this ludicrous interpretation; your theology does.

LOL, the fact that he quoted Psalm 45:7 just prior to it and certainly you don't want to foolishly argue that the Son was anointed by the Son do you?

Therefore within the structure we have two persons and one group being referenced within it, the angels and the Son and also The God of the Son.

Hello? All Scripture is breathed out by God. Although the psalmist wrote Psalm 102 as a prayer, the Father Authored the psalm through the psalmist making it his words too. This excuse is truly vacuous.

God Bless
Again in the original Greek Hebrews 1:10 reads like this "And you" "Lord in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands".

This clearly reveals that the writer is speaking of the God that anointed the Son in quoting this Psalm and it isn't God in the context doing the speaking to the Son as you falsely want to believe it is.

It is the writer of Hebrews himself adding his inspired thoughts on it and therefore quoting Psalm 102:25-28 about the God who anointed the Son "And you Lord etc., etc.


That is what it is also, you just wanting to believe it that way because you have to dig up as many verses as you can in order to continue to convince yourself of what God cannot convince you of because it isn't the truth of his word. .

For although as Paul said in Romans 10:17 "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the "rhema" of God", God cannot make his word faith within your heart from his words being adulterated like what you trins do with them.

Therefore because you cannot receive faith from God through his word because you have adulterated it from its true meaning, you have to convince yourselves of what you believe over and over again by arguing your false doctrines with other people.

I know all about it, because I was a trin myself for better than thirty years and could even make JW's and Mormons very uncomfortable with my arguments and wanting to get out of my house as quickly as possible also, but after they left, I was also aware of the many contradictions in my own doctrines taught to me by men.


Not anymore however, for I have stopped arguing against the Holy Spirit when I see the contradictions and now I seek and ask and wait upon God for his answers to my questions about his word instead of arrogantly attempting to understand them any other way.




Matthew 11:25-26 New International Version

25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

 
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Our Lord's God

Well-known member
The facts of Psalm 102 are irrelevant to how the Author of Hebrews is using it. You are ignoring the actual wording of Hebrews 1 and condemning yourself in the process.

So the Hebrews writer thought the facts of psalm 102 were relevant and that's why he quotes it.

But you claim the facts of Psalm 102 which he quotes are irrelevant.

Is that because you just don't like the facts? Why do you bother to pretend otherwise?

Sorry, but that interpretation is laughably bad. You clearly didn't read my argument or Hebrew 1 for that matter.
Here is the argumentative structure of Hebrews 1:


v5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
(cites Psalm 2:7)
Or again,
(cites 2 Sam 7:14)
v6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
(cites Deut 32:43)
v7 Of the angels he says,
(cites Psalm 104:4)
v8 But of the Son he says,
(cites Psalm 45:6-7)
v10 And,
(cites Psalm 102:25-27)
v13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
(cites Psalm 110:1)


What in this context tells you the author of Hebrews is not applying Psalm 102:25-28 to the Son but rather to the God of the Son? Oh yeah, nothing in Hebrew 1 justifies this ludicrous interpretation; your theology does.



Hello? All Scripture is breathed out by God. Although the psalmist wrote Psalm 102 as a prayer, the Father Authored the psalm through the psalmist making it his words too. This excuse is truly vacuous.

God Bless
 
Oh really? Well unfortunately for you, the author of Hebrews didn't give the Son as the referent of Hebrews 1:10-12 but only said "and you" right before quoting Psalm 102:25-28 and still speaking of the God that anointed the Son following the context from verse 9.
The very fact that he quotes Psalms 45:6-7 and which incidentally was first written for the promised anointed to the throne descendants of David and in which the Psalmist makes it clear that the one anointed has a God above him, proves how wrong your doctrine is about this.
For there is only one Yahweh God and Yahweh God has no other God above him.
Therefore we need to understand that although God gives his own title to his representatives as only being his representatives, and as in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9 and in Psalm 82 and here in Psalm 45:6-7 and also in Isaiah 9:6, they are never called by the name of Yahweh God.

To start out with, this response is absurd. Are you going to interact with the actual wording or Hebrew 1 or just make declarations that don't correlate with reality? The text is

v8 But of the Son he says,
(cites Psalm 45:6-7)
v10 And,
(cites Psalm 102:25-27)


Therefore, both citations are of the Son and said by God the Father. How can any rational person take part of one citation as an interpretive framework for another citation while ignoring the linguistic structure in which these citations exist?

LOL, the fact that he quoted Psalm 45:7 just prior to it and certainly you don't want to foolishly argue that the Son was anointed by the Son do you?

Therefore within the structure we have two persons and one group being referenced within it, the angels and the Son and also The God of the Son.

Is it fun arguing points that don't relate to my position at all? Notice, I'm not even looking at the citations yet. I'm looking at the structure in which the citations are placed. If your interpretation of the passage and the citations don't correspond with the linguistic structure as a whole, then they are automatically wrong. Again, the text is

v8 But of the Son he says,
(cites Psalm 45:6-7)
v10 And,
(cites Psalm 102:25-27)


Therefore, both citations are of the Son and said by God the Father. How can any rational person take part of one citation as an interpretive framework for another citation while ignoring the linguistic structure in which these citations exist?

Again in the original Greek Hebrews 1:10 reads like this "And you" "Lord in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands".

So? Oh, do you think this is relevant in some way? The Greek of Hebrew 1:10 is καί Σὺ κατ᾽ ἀρχάς κύριε τὴν γῆν ἐθεμελίωσας καὶ ἔργα τῶν χειρῶν σούεἰσιν οἱ οὐρανοί. The καί is not part of the citation, everything else is part of the citation.

Heb 1:10
καί Σὺ κατ᾽ ἀρχάς κύριε... Trans: and you in beginning Lord...
Psalm 102:25
κατ᾽ ἀρχὰς σύ κύριε... Trans: in beginning you Lord...

OMG, that's categorically different as to make a major theological point.
NOT!!! I know your just repeating silly arguments you heard form some pastor or something, but think before embarrassing yourself again. The you is not part of the address, it is part of the citation. Therefore, saying "the original Greek Hebrews 1:10 reads like this "And you"" is utterly irrelevant to the entire discussion.

This clearly reveals that the writer is speaking of the God that anointed the Son in quoting this Psalm and it isn't God in the context doing the speaking to the Son as you falsely want to believe it is.

Seriously? How can anyone think this is how one should interpret Scripture? Your understanding of the structure is incorrect; therefore, it doesn't reveal anything. Besides, interpreting the citation in v10-12 as speaking of the Father because the citation in v8-9 mentioned both the Father and Son is utter silliness. Again, the text is

v8 But of the Son he says,
(cites Psalm 45:6-7)
v10 And,
(cites Psalm 102:25-27)


Therefore, both citations are of the Son and said by God the Father.

It is the writer of Hebrews himself adding his inspired thoughts on it and therefore quoting Psalm 102:25-28 about the God who anointed the Son "And you Lord etc., etc.

That is what it is also, you just wanting to believe it that way because you have to dig up as many verses as you can in order to continue to convince yourself of what God cannot convince you of because it isn't the truth of his word. .

For although as Paul said in Romans 10:17 "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the "rhema" of God", God cannot make his word faith within your heart from his words being adulterated like what you trins do with them.

Therefore because you cannot receive faith from God through his word because you have adulterated it from its true meaning, you have to convince yourselves of what you believe over and over again by arguing your false doctrines with other people.

I know all about it, because I was a trin myself for better than thirty years and could even make JW's and Mormons very uncomfortable with my arguments and wanting to get out of my house as quickly as possible also, but after they left, I was also aware of the many contradictions in my own doctrines taught to me by men.


Not anymore however, for I have stopped arguing against the Holy Spirit when I see the contradictions and now I seek and ask and wait upon God for his answers to my questions about his word instead of arrogantly attempting to understand them any other way.




Matthew 11:25-26 New International Version

25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.


At this point you went rambling off into the woods, so I'll stop here.

God Bless
 
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