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Hebrews and the Law
- Thread starter Him
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Exactly what I have been trying to tell people. Every person who does not produce the good fruit of God Who is Love as Jesus did, produces bad fruit which is sin.
Just ask any of these if they are sinners and see which produce the good, and which produce the bad. The bad will try and explain away why they are not good and a sinner, and differ from the One who is good. Good being short for God.
Matthew 7
15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
In particular note the text in bold. Jesus emphasizes the point that not only do good trees bear good fruit, a good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit. In other words, a good tree bears good fruit and good fruit only. If you think you can make a cogent case for sin being "good fruit", go for it.
There's more I could post, but this should suffice.
Exactly what I have been trying to tell people. Every person who does not produce the good fruit of God Who is Love as Jesus did, produces bad fruit which is sin.
Just ask any of these if they are sinners and see which produce the good, and which produce the bad. The bad will try and explain away why they are not good and a sinner, and differ from the One who is good. Good being short for God.
The passage does not say true prophets don't sin. It has to do with continually doing bad things or good things...Matthew 7
15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Jesus also said...In particular note the text in bold. Jesus emphasizes the point that not only do good trees bear good fruit, a good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit.
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
So show me the good prophet who cannot bear bad fruit
Show me the person who has not sinned...In other words, a good tree bears good fruit and good fruit only.
Jesus already made the case...If you think you can make a cogent case for sin being "good fruit", go for it.
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Since you are assuming that there is a prophet somewhere who has not sinned and cannot sin please point him out.. because if that is the case we don't need an advocate.
There is nothing that you can post to support your position...If your position is Paul was a sinner and Jesus did not send him, you have to reject all his epistles...Do you reject all Paul's epistles?There's more I could post, but this should suffice.
Show me a person who has not sinned.New
Exactly what I have been trying to tell people. Every person who does not produce the good fruit of God Who is Love as Jesus did, produces bad fruit which is sin.
1 Timothy 1:15Just ask any of these if they are sinners and see which produce the good, and which produce the bad.
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Christ came to save sinners...not the righteous like you Gary...
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Show me the Good one, Gary...The bad will try and explain away why they are not good and a sinner, and differ from the One who is good. Good being short for God.
As a sinner or as a saint? Most here are sinners just ask them if they are.The passage does not say true prophets don't sin. It has to do with continually doing bad things or good things...
Everyone has sinned in one form of another depending on the laws for sin. Jesus was a sinner by the laws of the Jews was he not? Look how he was treated for those sins.Jesus also said...
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
So show me the good prophet who cannot bear bad fruit
Show me the person who has not sinned...
You do the same thing as these did. You see the righteousness of God that you are supposed to be as Jesus taught of himself and who you should be like him in the Father, perfect as God in heaven is perfect, holy pure and without sin, cannot sin because those are born of God, 1 John 3:9.
You see the perfections of Christ cannot be applied to you, why? Because you are of your laws for sin just as those whoo crucified Jesus for blaspheme against their laws for a god as blasphemer and you openly have stated over and over they way of Christ to be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect and be without sin is blaspheme. You are exactly as the one who had Jesus crucified for the very same reason.
If you ill note the comma between life and keep. the Bible was edited with punctuation about 400 years ago it was added from opinions of religious minds. Take out that comma that was edited in by someones opinions and read it again if you can.Jesus already made the case...
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
It isn't a matter of trying to keep the commandments, those things are fulfilled, completed when one has the same mind of GHod Jesus had. Those laws are who we become and the only effort that entails is, emptying yourself of all these stipulations that you have been taught by man and not by God Himself and let Him be who you are as He demands of you.
Even Jesus was a sinner to the Jewish laws. Jews do not believe in the way of Christ.Since you are assuming that there is a prophet somewhere who has not sinned and cannot sin please point him out.. because if that is the case we don't need an advocate.
I agree' there is noting I can quote of Jesus and what he said that you should be and would be like him in the Father and perfect as He is perfect, holy, pure and without sin if you received from his God the same as he received from Him.There is nothing that you can post to support your position...If your position is Paul was a sinner and Jesus did not send him, you have to reject all his epistles...Do you reject all Paul's epistles?
Paul is your way not Jesus because you can relate to Pal as a sinner and cant relate to Jesus who was without sin as we all are who has fro jmGod the same as he had from Him.
There is One that you have not met yet. His name is Holy Spirit, which translates to our mind undefiled, without sin. The One that you do not know but you do know Paul as a sinner for sure.
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Don't try to double down ... Your position is the tree is either good or bad..Paul had a few things right that can be identified with God but for the most part he only expressed his beliefs from opinions.
You can't see that since he never said that. Do you notice your strawman argument...I still don’t see where he was perfect a God is perfect as Jesus taught.
Show me a person who does not struggle with sin...Paul’s struggle with sin is very far from Gods perfection and without sin , impossible to be in sin.
That is why we have an advocate Gary... Probably you don't need an advocate because you don't sin.One has to be of Christ, anointed of God, to be perfect and without sin as God demands of Paul and you.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Don't try to double down ... Your position is the tree is either good or bad..
Yes either you are a sinner or you are of Christ. It is impossible to be in both.
If you say you are of Christ, follow the way of Christ, yet the sinner then that makes the one you say you follow and are of the sinner doesn't it?
Truth is you follow Paul as a sinner instead of Christ who is without sin.
Well if Pauls imperfections as a sinner as he has stated and had sever problems with sin is not in your book. And if Jesus who didn't have a problem with sin is not in your book, then I can see how the way of Christ as Jesus taught the way of Christ to be anointed of God yourself and to be righteous is a straw man. argument for you.
It isn't I you are arguing with, it is Jesus you are arguing with. Ive quoited him who you should be like him instead do another -- such as Paul or anyone else.
You are talking to one this day. You cant be of Christ and be a sinner, that is impossible.Show me a person who does not struggle with sin...
If you say you are of Christ, follow the way of Christ, yet the sinner then that makes the one you say you follow and are of the sinner doesn't it?
Yes Jesus defiantly was a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy. That is what an advocate is.That is why we have an advocate Gary...
Perhaps Jesus policy is foreign to your understanding. Umm now that I think about it and by your remarks for sin -- reject his policies to be as he is in the Father and perfect as He is perfect isn't a perhaps at all but the truth.
Exactly! I followed his policies for he was my advocate for his way to the Father.Probably you don't need an advocate because you don't sin.
The results from his advocacy is in that day ye shall ask me noting but go to the Father for myself and He gave it to me Himself. See Jesus policies in John 16:23.
He isn't your advocate, policy holder, is he? If any man sin the policy holder has no merit for you at all, for his policy is be ye therefore perfect as God in heaven is perfect. So you really dont have an advocate do you? The creed you are chained to as a sinner that you are is your advocate, policy holder, not Jesus Christ who does have the policy.John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Did Jesus come to call sinners yes or no? We are called to be saints...and sometimes we sin that is why Jesus mediates for us...You, my friend claim that you do not sin therefore you do not need a mediator. You do not need Jesus...Yes either you are a sinner or you are of Christ. It is impossible to be in both.
What was he your advocate for? Are you saying that you sometimes sin?Exactly! I followed his policies for he was my advocate for his way to the Father.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
You don't even know what the word advocate means...It is someone who pleads on your behalf...in this case, Jesus pleads on behalf of those saints who have sinned, that excludes you Gary, remember you don't sin...Yes Jesus defiantly was a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy. That is what an advocate is.
Perhaps Jesus policy is foreign to your understanding. Umm now that I think about it and by your remarks for sin -- reject his policies to be as he is in the Father and perfect as He is perfect isn't a perhaps at all but the truth.
Nope...I accidentally clicked the reply before posting...Why didn't you respond to thisDid you encounter a technical problem with your response in post #59? None of the text you wrote is visible.
Newbirth said:
Please show any of the prophets that came before Jesus who was not a sinner. Was Moses not a sinner also? All the apostles were sinners...
How does this passage show that true prophets were not sinners?
But you concluded that sinners are false prophets, show any one of the prophets that Jesus sent who was not a sinner...
Gary Mac asserted that he was one, is he?
Absolutely Yes -- he came that ye MIGHT be saved where God is manifest in you as He was manifest in Jesus. He really is teacher of how to but by your statements and beliefs for a god, Jesus fails to get Gods message across to you for Gods salvation, which is to be like Him instead of a sinner that you say you are. .Did Jesus come to call sinners yes or no?
Contrary- We are called to be saints and all who are born of God, born again as Jesus described the process, cannot sin because we are born of God by His Spirit 1John 3:9, just as Jesus was in Matt 3:16. No different from the same Spirit be in you Who was in Christ Jesus at all.We are called to be saints...and sometimes we sin that is why Jesus mediates for us...You, my friend claim that you do not sin therefore you do not need a mediator. You do not need Jesus...
And yes Jesus was my mediator and make attempts to make us all that are involved in a conflict come to an agreement -- a go-between the laws and rituals and self beliefs from religious minds that you may come to the Father yourself as he did and be as He is instead to the laws you have formed to regulate your beliefs for a god. And in that mediation one has a choice to follow Jesus to the one he is mediator of that you may know the Father, AND the mediator God did send that you are supposed to believe him that the Father may be in you and you I nHim as one as the mediator was one in Him, John 17, instead of your own rules where you have mad a god to obey your beliefs instead of following the lead of the mediator to the One He was sent to lead you to.
Actually by the same Spirit of God in me Who was in Christ Jesus -- just as with Jesus God knew I cannot sin and if you were born of God instead of the creed you are advocate of and knew the Father as the mediator knew the Father who was his God, you would be like thew Father of it as well. He would be in you and you would be in Him as one just as Jesus prayed to his God that you be in John 17.
And you are correct, I no longer need that mediator for I took his advice and went to the Father for myself. And in that day that you pay attention to the mediator, the go between God and man, you to will no longer need that mediator for God Himself will give it you that what only He can put within you just as He put within His mediator.
Go and read what the mediator said in John 16:23. But you won't believe that mediator will you, to go to the One Jesus was mediator for.
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Thats what I said - Jesus defiantly was a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy and that policy is to have the same Spirit, mind, be in you who was in him from the One he represents. And Jesus does plead to you that you come to the same place in the Father he was at in the Father.You don't even know what the word advocate means...It is someone who pleads on your behalf...in this case, Jesus pleads on behalf of those saints who have sinned,
But I did have an advocate Jesus Christ, the one who leads people to the Father who is without sin, cannot sin because we are born of God, 1 John 3:9. . Read John 16:23 if you can, or if you even will, it is very clear that I did have an advocate but now I go to the Father myself and do not have to depend on an advocate to lead my case to God. That trial is over.that excludes you Gary, remember you don't sin...
The real problem in your doctrine is, you as a sinner are describes in 1 John 3:8 who you yourself are of. Read it, But I doubt you will even read it because it puts you under conviction for not being born of God yourself. For if you did believe 1 John 3 you would know He really does take away the sins of this world.
Just think about that! Think about how He takes away your sin but YET YOU ARE STILL THE SINNER. Ask yourself -- Why is that? It is that the mediator fails to do his job in you.
You are caught up in the flesh...Just think about that! Think about how He takes away your sin but YET YOU ARE STILL THE SINNER. Ask yourself -- Why is that? It is that the mediator fails to do his job in you.
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
A mediator helps us with the weakness of the flesh...You are glorying in the flesh...
That I may set aside my way and your ways, and have the ways of the Father as my own mind that I may walk as He walks in His same light, same Spirit in me who was in Christ Jesus, perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect as the advocate lead me to.What was he your advocate for?
Nope I cannot sin for I am born of God just as the advocate pleaded that I be.Are you saying that you sometimes sin?
1 John 2:1
All who are born of God it is impossible to be in sin Newbirth, but you just don't believe 1 John 3:9 and the real reason that you are the sinner and we who are born of God are the saint.
You should read the whole of 1 John 2 instead of taking one little phrase out off context.My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:And he is the propitiation for our sins:
Propitiation is a big word that means satisfaction. Because God is a holy God, His anger and justice burns against sin. And He has sworn that sin will be punished.
and that my friend is why I turned to Christ that I may be anointed of God instead of anointed of sin.
Something you might consider in yourself from Jesus Christ himself who lead you to the Father who will perfect you if you will follow Jesus, the advocate, the rabbi, the teacher, the one God sent to show you the way to Him.
To you I am from not knowing His Spirit as He demands of you. -- but to God He in me and I in Him are one just as He was in Jesus and Jesus was in Him as one. You are supposed to one in Him as well as Jesus was one in Him. You can read Jesus prayer to his GHod for you to be in John 17, but then you would have to follow that way of Jesus to be.You are caught up in the flesh...
Yep' That old man of that flesh mentality is dead, and the new man of Christ has risen from that grave of the dead of that man that was of flesh, carnality that you are advocate of.Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
To you I am glorying in flesh from a mind that does not let that mediator, the go between you and God, do his job.A mediator helps us with the weakness of the flesh...You are glorying in the flesh...
And if you would listen to the mediator and do as he says and go to God for yourself as the mediator advises you to do, in that day ye shall ask that mediator noting but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you.
And you say I am glorying in flesh? The only reason you can say that is from a carnal mind that is of flesh and not of the Spirit of God the mediator is trying to lead you to. He really does hear from God just as we all do who has gone to the Father that He may be in us and we in Him as one no different from the mediator at all.
The mediator hears from God, you should at least consider what he says you should be in the Father of it that you may hear from Him yourself.
Yes, you are...And you say I am glorying in flesh?
So you reject Paul but you claim what he teaches? That is hypocrisy.Yep' That old man of that flesh mentality is dead, and the new man of Christ has risen from that grave of the dead of that man that was of flesh, carnality that you are advocate of.
Don't try to swing the discussion...we are discussing if Paul was sent by Jesus or not...You are saying that Jesus did not send Paul. Therefore you are saying Paul is a liar because Paul said Jesus sent him. here is what Peter says...To you I am from not knowing His Spirit as He demands of you.
2Peter 3
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Peter is endorsing Paul so if you reject Paul you also reject Peter...
He does not tell you to say you cannot sin...Nope I cannot sin for I am born of God just as the advocate pleaded that I be.
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.