Hebrews and the Law

[Gary Mac]

Yes, you are...

That is because you haven't been introduced to God Who is Spirit to know the difference.

Gosh even Adam came to the knowledge of Spirit when he became like Him, Gen 3:22, just as Jesus did in Matt 3:16, and all do who receives that same tree of knowledge that only God can open to you. Even Jesus had to go through that enlightenment. Read it. Matt 3:16.

 

[Gary Mac]

So you reject Paul but you claim what he teaches? That is hypocrisy.

FYI I didn't quote Paul at all, Paulteaches sin, Jesus teaches holiness.

I only testified of what happens in man when he receives from God the same as Jesus did. Something you should at least look at from Jesus yourself. But then you are to busy dictating to him who he should be to comprehend what he says. Paul is your way not Jesus, that is so ado obvious.

 

[Gary Mac]

Don't try to swing the discussion...we are discussing if Paul was sent by Jesus or not...You are saying that Jesus did not send Paul. Therefore you are saying Paul is a liar because Paul said Jesus sent him. here is what Peter says...

Paul sent himself, self anointed as a sinner and not the righteousness of God and without sin.

2Peter 3
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Kinda hypnotical when you say " be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." then say you are just a dirty ole sinner and struggle with it daily isn't it?

I dont remember Jesus struggling with sin do you?

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Peter is endorsing Paul so if you reject Paul you also reject Peter...

Endorcing Paul? Seems he is denouncing Paul in that the wisdom of Paul was contrary to Christ and stated the things Paul taught was conflicting, confusing, unlearned by those of Christ, hard to understand because they were taught by Jesus a better way from the teaching of Paul to be a sinner and not perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect as Jesus taught them, and you, unstable, unto your own destruction by following another than Jesus.

I can identify with Peter in this clearly. You miss the whole message in that statement because Paul is your advocate for sin, not Jesus who teaches without sin. .

 

[Gary Mac]

What is so interesting about Jesus is, we are supposed to be like Him in the Father. Something religious minds never has considered from the one God sent to show you how His way works. These has no intent of being like Jesus Father that He may be their Father the same, so they resort to others for information such as Paul. For to most Paul has the better way as a sinner than Jesus had as the saint.

These won't even consider nor take the effort to compare the teachings of each to see who they really are. .

 

[Algernon]

The passage does not say true prophets don't sin. It has to do with continually doing bad things or good things...

Jesus also said...
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
So show me the good prophet who cannot bear bad fruit

Show me the person who has not sinned...

Jesus already made the case...
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Since you are assuming that there is a prophet somewhere who has not sinned and cannot sin please point him out.. because if that is the case we don't need an advocate.

There is nothing that you can post to support your position...If your position is Paul was a sinner and Jesus did not send him, you have to reject all his epistles...Do you reject all Paul's epistles?

Since you still don't seem to understand what Jesus is saying. I'll walk you through it step-by-step.

Matthew 7
15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

If Jesus had left it at that, you might have had some "wiggle room".

But the fact is that in the very next verse, Jesus said "a good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit". Jesus did not say "a good tree TRIES NOT TO bear bad fruit". Jesus did not say "a good tree RARELY bears bad fruit". Jesus went out of His way to emphasize the fact that "a good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit". Do you not understand the meaning of the word "CANNOT"? There is no "wiggle room" there.

Once again, the following is my position:

Jesus was righteous. He was a true prophet.
Those who commit sin are not righteous. They are false prophets.

Your only reasonable recourse it to make a cogent case that sin can be good fruit. Thus far you have avoided doing so. Instead you've dance around it.

Let's look some of the different ways in which you've continued to dance around it:
1)"So show me the good prophet who cannot bear bad fruit."
Jesus was righteous. Thus He was a true prophet.

2) "Show me the person who has not sinned...".
The point isn't that a true prophet has never sinned. Rather that a true prophet does not commit sin; they are righteous. This would include individuals who had repented and thus have ceased to sin.
Once again: Jesus was righteous. Thus He was a true prophet.

3) "If your position is Paul was a sinner and Jesus did not send him, you have to reject all his epistles...Do you reject all Paul's epistles?"
I reject the teachings of false prophets. From what I gather, even you believe that Paul never ceased to sin. If you believed Jesus, you therefore would also reject Paul's teachings.

You seem to believe that no one in the Bible other than Jesus was righteous. That's just not true. As but one example:
Luke 1
5In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6And they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

You also seem to believe that it is impossible for anyone to be righteous; that is, to not commit sin. Jesus repeatedly indicated otherwise. Jesus repeatedly divided individuals into two groups:
1) The righteous
2) The unrighteous
It's a strict dichotomy. An individual is either righteous or is unrighteous. An individual is one or the other. There is not in-between.

Following are but a few examples:
Luke 5
31And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. 32“I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 15
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Matthew 5
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

John 5
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 13
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13
23And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25“Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26“Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ 28“In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

Do you need more?

 

[Newbirth]

Once again, the following is my position:

Jesus was righteous. He was a true prophet.
Those who commit sin are not righteous. They are false prophets.

That is the reason I asked you to show me a prophet who has not committed sin.
Is it your position that of all the apostles only Paul committed sin?

 

[Newbirth]

Your only reasonable recourse it to make a cogent case that sin can be good fruit. Thus far you have avoided doing so. Instead you've dance around it.

No, it is not...I have asked you to show anyone who has not sinned...(after being saved in case you misunderstood)
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteousJohn includes himself)
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (John includes himself)

Let's look some of the different ways in which you've continued to dance around it:
1)"So show me the good prophet who cannot bear bad fruit."
Jesus was righteous. Thus He was a true prophet.

Anyone else? You do know that we are discussing those who Jesus sent, don't you?

2) "Show me the person who has not sinned...".
The point isn't that a true prophet has never sinned. Rather that a true prophet does not commit sin; they are righteous. This would include individuals who had repented and thus have ceased to sin.
Once again: Jesus was righteous. Thus He was a true prophet.

Anyone else? Please show someone who Jesus sent that has not sinned after being sent.

3) "If your position is Paul was a sinner and Jesus did not send him, you have to reject all his epistles...Do you reject all Paul's epistles?"
I reject the teachings of false prophets. From what I gather, even you believe that Paul never ceased to sin. If you believed Jesus, you therefore would also reject Paul's teachings.

So please show anyone who did not sin after being saved. Because John includes himself in his message...
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (clearly, john is saying he has sin) Do you reject John also?

 

[Newbirth]

You seem to believe that no one in the Bible other than Jesus was righteous. That's just not true. As but one example:
Luke 1
5In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6And they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

You Just exposed your ignorance...God provides a way for his people to be righteous in his sight. Jesus never sinned. Everyone else has...we can only be righteous when we are cleansed from sin., not by our own doing or not doing.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (Again John includes himself. ) Why would John include himself if he has no sin? You might be tempted to say all future sins of the believers are forgiven but where does that leave Ananias and his wife?

 

[HealTheLand]

No, it is not...I have asked you to show anyone who has not sinned...(after being saved in case you misunderstood)
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteousJohn includes himself)

perhaps as another posted here -- the advocate -- brings us to the Father. human wisdom is not the same as God's (1 Corinthians 13:12).

 

[Newbirth]

You also seem to believe that it is impossible for anyone to be righteous; that is, to not commit sin. Jesus repeatedly indicated otherwise. Jesus repeatedly divided individuals into two groups:
1) The righteous
2) The unrighteous
It's a strict dichotomy. An individual is either righteous or is unrighteous. An individual is one or the other. There is not in-between.

Again You are exposing your ignorance of the scripture. There is the righteousness of the law , the righteousness of works, and the righteousness of faith.

 

[Newbirth]

perhaps as another posted here -- the advocate -- brings us to the Father. human wisdom is not the same as God's (1 Corinthians 13:12).

The advocate/ lawyer (Jesus)speaks on behalf of the sinner. You seem to have missed the point.

 

[HealTheLand]

You Just exposed your ignorance...God provides a way for his people to be righteous in his sight. Jesus never sinned. Everyone else has...we can only be righteous when we are cleansed from sin., not by our own doing or not doing.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (Again John includes himself. ) Why would John include himself if he has no sin? You might be tempted to say all future sins of the believers are forgiven but where does that leave Ananias and his wife?

if we confess, hopefully we are repenting? if we are not repenting, is there any need to confess? if you feel a need to confess but are not repenting or wanting to change - why go through the trouble?

if God sees all, He would know whether you confession of wanting to stop sinning (not just saying that you are a sinner, but repentance of) is truthful or not - and begin, or continue to help you overcome all sin in your life (cleanse from all unrighteousness).

 

[Newbirth]

Following are but a few examples:
Luke 5
31And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. 32“I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 15
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Matthew 5
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

John 5
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 13
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13
23And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25“Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26“Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ 28“In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

Do you need more?

Nothing here supports your argument that Paul was not a righteous person in the sight of God. Paul was not righteous in your sight so the same judgment you use on him will be used on you.

 

[HealTheLand]

There is the righteousness of the law , the righteousness of works, and the righteousness of faith.

the advocate -- brings . . . us to -- the Father? where the Father is - there is no sin. not an imagined/ magical sinlessness of belief - but actually no sin.

God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. so, while we wo/ander in darkness (sin) the light of His (whole) truth eludes us - in part - until....

 

[Newbirth]

if we confess, hopefully we are repenting?

John is writing to believers is he not? They have already repented, the issue here is they had done something wrong and confessing is acknowledging it. This is not about a continuous sinning.

if we are not repenting, is there any need to confess?

The person has already repented sir...

if you feel a need to confess but are not repenting or wanting to change - why go through the trouble?

What exactly are you talking about...Repentance is about sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin. We did that when we came to Christ. Heb 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

We don't lay the foundation of repentance every time we confess sin.

if God sees all, He would know whether you confession of wanting to stop sinning (not just saying that you are a sinner, but repentance of) is truthful or not - and begin, or continue to help you overcome all sin in your life (cleanse from all unrighteousness).

If you are a believer you would know if you have really repented in the first place. Anyone who "sin" is a sinner. When you confess and have been forgiven and cleansed you become righteous...It is like having a bath. A truly repentant person does not want sin in their system therefore they confess regularly.
Mk 11
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

 

[Newbirth]

the advocate -- brings . . . us to -- the Father? where the Father is - there is no sin. not an imagined/ magical sinlessness of belief - but actually no sin.

You are making up things...Where does the scripture say... the advocate -- brings . . . us to -- the Father?

God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all. so, while we wo/ander in darkness (Sin) the Light of His (whole) Truth eludes us - in part - Until....

Speak for yourself...if the truth eludes you then you are living a lie.

 

[Newbirth]

You are talking to one this day. You cant be of Christ and be a sinner, that is impossible.

If you say you are of Christ, follow the way of Christ, yet the sinner then that makes the one you say you follow and are of the sinner doesn't it?

Why would Jesus say this to you...
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

 

[Gary Mac]

Why would Jesus say this to you...
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

It is simple. If you cannot forgive then you do not have a clue what it is to be of Christ, anointed of God, Christ in you, for to have His same mind and walk as He walks in it as Jesus did.

Forgiveness isn't something we try and do, forgiveness is the mind that is of Love. God is Love and I am the temple of Him. You are supposed to be as well.

Not many actually has the same disposition of Christ the same as Jesus had when he said stood praying, forgive, such as in the Father forgave me, and as Jesus came to be in his prayer -- Father forgive them they know not what they do.

Receiving God as your own mins, Spirit, born of God, forgiveness for those who condemn is who we become and not just words for a prayer.

People condemn me all the time for the same reason they condemned Jesus. He taught to have Love as your mind and in that forgiveness is not even something to consider, it is an automatic. And to most of you have stated that the way of Christ to be like I Am as He demands of me is blaspheme. Go figure that one yourself for you have condemned me many time for the very same reason the same condemned Jesus.

How do you perceive why Jesus made that statement?

 

[Gary Mac]

the advocate -- brings . . . us to -- the Father? where the Father is - there is no sin. not an imagined/ magical sinlessness of belief - but actually no sin.

1 John 3:9.

God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. so, while we wo/ander in darkness (sin) the light of His (whole) truth eludes us - in part - until....

Until you see Him as He really is then ye shall be like Him. 1 John 3. But you are going to have a hard time convincing them that 1 John 3 is right, not to mention Jesus prayer to his God for God to be in us and we be in Him as one as Jesus was one in Him in John 17. As as Jesus commanded -- To be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect isn't even a consideration for these.
That doesn't compute for a religious minded at all. Their laws to govern a different god opposes what Jesus said you should be and would be IF.

IF what? Be as I Am. And these do not have a clue who I Am is, for there is no way He can manifest Himself because of separation from Him to worship a god that isn't even here.

 

[Gary Mac]

if we confess, hopefully we are repenting? if we are not repenting, is there any need to confess? if you feel a need to confess but are not repenting or wanting to change - why go through the trouble?

These will not hear that truth.

if God sees all, He would know whether you confession of wanting to stop sinning (not just saying that you are a sinner, but repentance of) is truthful or not - and begin, or continue to help you overcome all sin in your life (cleanse from all unrighteousness).

Most who do not know what it is to be of God as Jesus was of God is they are not thorough in repentance. Repentance is a one time act. If one sin than says lord forgive me then ten minutes later commit the same sin, God cant forgive you off that, you lied and didn't repent from sin at all.

Repentance is setting aside who you are and become like Him instead, perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect as Jesus commanded of us.