Helen Mar Kimball...

Magdalena

Active member
Before the boards went down, much was being said about the difference between Joseph Smith’s plural marriages being for time and eternity or just for eternity.

Mormon posters claimed that most of them were just eternal sealings, which didn’t pertain to this life.

Helen Mar Kimball, 14, was one of his wives.

Smith went to Heber Kimball, Helen’s father, and told him to give Smith his wife, Vilate. Heber agreed, but was then relieved when Smith said, “Psyche! I was just kidding. But I’ll take your daughter instead.”

Mormons claim that this was one of the solely eternal sealings. If that is the case, then why was she separated from other young people, not allowed to even go to parties or dances, and definitely prohibited from dating?

If he only wanted her for a celestial kingdom wife, why did he need to prevent her from being with anyone in this life? Especially when he was marrying other women who already had living husbands.

Helen Mar was told that her family’s eternal salvation rested on her marrying Smith. She was not the only young girl that Smith groomed/spiritually blackmailed to be his. He told a 12 year old that God said she was supposed to marry him.

Why did he want little girls?
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Some people are never satisfied, and are always greedy for more.

I presume that "psche" phrase was just the modern paraphrase of what Smith really said. :)

And if this marriage was for eternity ONLY, then why did Helen and her mother angst so much over it? Helen did NOT like the idea of marrying a guy old enough to be her father. She wrote that "no one could see my mother's bleeding heart." Helen also told a close friend that she was deceived; that she never would have consented to the marriage had she known it was to be more than just ceremony.

So, this evidence does not sound as if the marriage were for eternity only.

On the old boards, I found evidence from some of Smith's polyandrous wives, that their marriages to him were for time as well as for eternity. A Mormon on here tried to tell me that they married Smith for time AFTER he was dead, but that is nonsense--I proved from the official LDS website that "for time" means for life on earth, not for after death.
 

Magdalena

Active member
Some people are never satisfied, and are always greedy for more.

I presume that "psche" phrase was just the modern paraphrase of what Smith really said. :)

And if this marriage was for eternity ONLY, then why did Helen and her mother angst so much over it? Helen did NOT like the idea of marrying a guy old enough to be her father. She wrote that "no one could see my mother's bleeding heart." Helen also told a close friend that she was deceived; that she never would have consented to the marriage had she known it was to be more than just ceremony.

So, this evidence does not sound as if the marriage were for eternity only.

On the old boards, I found evidence from some of Smith's polyandrous wives, that their marriages to him were for time as well as for eternity. A Mormon on here tried to tell me that they married Smith for time AFTER he was dead, but that is nonsense--I proved from the official LDS website that "for time" means for life on earth, not for after death.

Yes, I was paraphrasing Smith. But he basically did say that same thing... Just kidding/testing you. What I really want is your daughter.

Kimball was so relieved to not give his wife away, and so caught up in being in Smith’s good favor, that he jumped at the chance to give his 14 year old daughter to him. In spite of knowing how devastating it was to her. It was spiritual and emotional abuse at the least.

I believe that if Smith hadn’t died when he did, he would have taken those young girls as temporal wives. Why else didn't he want them to be around any other males.

That’s pedophilia, and it’s evil.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Yes, I was paraphrasing Smith. But he basically did say that same thing... Just kidding/testing you. What I really want is your daughter.

Kimball was so relieved to not give his wife away, and so caught up in being in Smith’s good favor, that he jumped at the chance to give his 14 year old daughter to him. In spite of knowing how devastating it was to her. It was spiritual and emotional abuse at the least.

I believe that if Smith hadn’t died when he did, he would have taken those young girls as temporal wives. Why else didn't he want them to be around any other males.

That’s pedophilia, and it’s evil.
Smith was evil, no two ways about it. Making sin--marrying other men's wives, young girls, etc.--into something God commanded. That was evil. I would like to know where in the D and C God said it was hunky-dory for Smith to marry otner men's wives while they were still married to their first husbands. And make no mistake, some he married for time as well as eternity.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Smith went to Heber Kimball, Helen’s father, and told him to give Smith his wife, Vilate. Heber agreed, but was then relieved when Smith said, “Psyche! I was just kidding. But I’ll take your daughter instead.”
Cite for your quoted above.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Smith was evil, no two ways about it. Making sin--marrying other men's wives, young girls, etc.--into something God commanded. That was evil. I would like to know where in the D and C God said it was hunky-dory for Smith to marry otner men's wives while they were still married to their first husbands. And make no mistake, some he married for time as well as eternity.
So, Bonnie---you claim that David was a man after God's own heart--a man of God. In eternal life.

David had another man murdered, stole his wife--and married numerous wives. Died with numerous wives.

How do you explain the contradiction?
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
So, Bonnie---you claim that David was a man after God's own heart--a man of God. In eternal life.

David had another man murdered, stole his wife--and married numerous wives. Died with numerous wives.

How do you explain the contradiction?
David repented. One of the biggest insults your kult shows is when your tribes try to use David as an excuse for Smiths sexual predator lifestyle.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Yeah, I'll have to check our exhaustive transcripts of everything they've ever said during their entire lives.

(Sarcasm /OFF)
You won't have to do any more than read the Biblical witness:

Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You won't have to do any more than read the Biblical witness:

Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

Did you forget that you asked where he REPENTED of his adultery?
You don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about.... ever.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Did you forget that you asked where he REPENTED of his adultery?
You don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about.... ever.
So--where did Abraham repent of his polygamy?

Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
So, Bonnie---you claim that David was a man after God's own heart--a man of God. In eternal life.

David had another man murdered, stole his wife--and married numerous wives. Died with numerous wives.

How do you explain the contradiction?
The "man after His own heart" was before David's sin with Bathsheba. However DO note that AFTER Nathan confronted him, David repented of his sin and God forgave him. He still had to suffer the temporal punishment for his sin, under the Law of Moses. But we are no longer under law but under grace.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
So--where did Abraham repent of his polygamy?

Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
Did Abe marry other men's wives, while they were still married to their first husbands?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Did Abe marry other men's wives, while they were still married to their first husbands?
So--are you saying it's not the polygamy you are concerned with--but just any point which is unique to Joseph Smith's polygamy--apart from all the polygamist of the Biblical text?

Bonnie--that is an excellent exhibit of bias, IMO. Swallowing the camel, and choking on a gnat.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The "man after His own heart" was before David's sin with Bathsheba.
So--are you claiming--that David isn't now-- really a man after God's own heart? David was just "a man after God's own heart"--before that?

Or--that David was a man after God's own heart while he was practicing polygamy--but not when he had a man murdered and stole his wife?
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
So--are you claiming--that David isn't now-- really a man after God's own heart? David was just "a man after God's own heart"--before that?

Or--that David was a man after God's own heart while he was practicing polygamy--but not when he had a man murdered and stole his wife?
No. Practicing polygamy, which was common for kings in those days, is not what made David a man after God's own heart. God said that about David BEFORE he married. But David's faith in God WAS. He never waivered in his faith, except temporarily, when he blew it, big time, with Bathsheba and having Uriah murdered. But he confessed his great sins and God forgave him. And God still had the Messiah come from his line.
 
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