Helen Mar Kimball...

Sherman

Active member
Wrong question and obfuscation. Smith took the wives of other men while they were still married to them. That is adultery.
 

Sherman

Active member
Why would God punish anyone who met this standard?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Why would God punish those who obeyed Him--and kept His commandments?
God never commanded His people to take the wives of other men while they were yet living and married to them. God does not command adultery.
 

Magdalena

Active member
Back to the OP... why did Smith need to take little girls as wives, and prevent them from socializing with people their own age?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Back to the OP... why did Smith need to take little girls as wives, and prevent them from socializing with people their own age?
Could you give us your source that Joseph prevented anyone from socializing from society? Joseph Smith didn't take little girls anywhere.

What is the source of your information?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
And you don't consider polygamy adultery?

Smith didn't take other men's wives. Cite for that.
Yes Smith did marry other men's wives, while they were still married to their first husbands. Maggie and I cited sources for that on the last 2 boards. You may not have been on then as you disappear for several months at a time, sometimes.


The husbands listed on the right are polyandrous unions.

He also tried to get Jane Law to marry him, when her husband William was out of town.. Law was furious when he got home and found out that Smith had propositioned his wife.

So, where does the D and C 132 say it is fine and dandy for Joseph to marry other men's wives...? That they are given to him?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Back to the OP... why did Smith need to take little girls as wives, and prevent them from socializing with people their own age?
You know, Maggie, IF Helen had been Smith's ONLY wife, and he had loved her and honored her and been faithful to her, I would not have a thing to say against him in his marriage to her. But Smith was a manipulative jerk, who used the lure of eternal exaltation for her entire family as bait to get Helen and her parents to consent to letting her marry Joseph. Helen and her mother angsted greatly over it. Why all of the anxiety over it, IF it were nothing more than ceremony?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Why would God punish anyone who met this standard?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Why would God punish those who obeyed Him--and kept His commandments?
Sherman and I were talking about what God would think IF Abe had married another man's wife, while she was still married to her first husband. Is that the "standard" you are talking about?

Just a diversionary tactic, to keep from answering my simple questions...
 

Magdalena

Active member
Could you give us your source that Joseph prevented anyone from socializing from society? Joseph Smith didn't take little girls anywhere.

What is the source of your information?

He took them as wives. That is what I said. But you like to try to skew our words for your own amusement.

“During the winter of 1843-44, there were weekly parties at Joseph Smith’s Mansion House. Many of Helen’s friends attended, as well as her sixteen-year-old brother William. Disappointed, Helen wrote, “my father had been warned by the Prophet to keep his daughter away...I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow [William] to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with others of my companions, and fettered me down, for no girl loved dancing better than I did...and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did murmur.”

“In June 1844, Heber was away from home on a mission and wrote to Helen: “MY DEAR DAUGHTER-...be obedient to the counsel you have given to you...If you should be tempted, or having feelings in your heart, tell them to no one but your father and mother; if you do, you will be betrayed and exposed...You are blessed, but you know it not. You have done that which will be for your everlasting good for this world and that which is to come. I will admit there is not much pleasure in this world...Be true to the covenants that you have made...Be a good girl;...your affectionate father.” A few weeks later Joseph Smith was killed in Carthage. After one year of marriage, Helen was a widow.


If her covenant with Smith was only after death, why did they apply to her life as well, like her father said.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
He took them as wives. That is what I said. But you like to try to skew our words for your own amusement.

“During the winter of 1843-44, there were weekly parties at Joseph Smith’s Mansion House. Many of Helen’s friends attended, as well as her sixteen-year-old brother William. Disappointed, Helen wrote, “my father had been warned by the Prophet to keep his daughter away...I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow [William] to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with others of my companions, and fettered me down, for no girl loved dancing better than I did...and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did murmur.”

“In June 1844, Heber was away from home on a mission and wrote to Helen: “MY DEAR DAUGHTER-...be obedient to the counsel you have given to you...If you should be tempted, or having feelings in your heart, tell them to no one but your father and mother; if you do, you will be betrayed and exposed...You are blessed, but you know it not. You have done that which will be for your everlasting good for this world and that which is to come. I will admit there is not much pleasure in this world...Be true to the covenants that you have made...Be a good girl;...your affectionate father.” A few weeks later Joseph Smith was killed in Carthage. After one year of marriage, Helen was a widow.


If her covenant with Smith was only after death, why did they apply to her life as well, like her father said.
Thanks, Maggie. Imagine that...a 14-15 year old girl wanting to go to parties, dances, and interact with kids her own age....how...deplorable of her! 🙄 What WAS she thinking Of? Gasp! 🙄

Instead she was tied down to a guy old enough to be her father, who collected wives the way some folks collect stamps!
 
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Sherman

Active member
Sherman and I were talking about what God would think IF Abe had married another man's wife, while she was still married to her first husband. Is that the "standard" you are talking about?

Just a diversionary tactic, to keep from answering my simple questions...
It's red herring argument. Very common strategy that cults use.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
It's red herring argument. Very common strategy that cults use.
Of course. Have you read my list of Mormon debate tactics in my signature? :)

Here is a jim-dandy example of a red herring, a whole boat load of red herrings, in fact:

 
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Sherman

Active member
Of course. Have you read my list of Mormon debate tactics in my signature? :)

Here is a jim-dandy example of a red herring, a whole boat load of red herrings, in fact:

That is a great signature!
 
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