stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
.......... go no further until you prove that conjecture..
Helen & the Scissors
- Thread starter stiggy wiggy
- Start date
.......... go no further until you prove that conjecture..
Gus Bovona
Well-known member
So, you're saying that Christ is external to your mind, but you don't perceive him through the 5 standard senses? Is he located in space? If not, then how do you know that he is external to your mind, which is located in space between your ears?
God doesn't have to cooperate in the slightest if he doesn't want to, and I never said he did, so bringing this up is a complete straw man, it has nothing to do with what I've said. The issue is what we are warranted to conclude given logic and certain evidence. If God doesn't want to provide us with certain evidence, that's perfectly fine, and we can then base our conclusions on that lack of evidence.
You're merely re-asserting your claim, which does nothing to address the epistemological issues we've been talking about.
Gus Bovona
Well-known member
This issue is addressed in my post #42.
I think you have described Christianity quite well right there.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Correct. I don't see Him with my eyes, nor hear Him with my ears, nor feel Him with my hands, nor taste Him nor smell Him.
He transcends space, which He created and yet is omnipresent.
My OP is about what you are NOT "warranted to conclude."
This whole thought experiment suffers the issue of god needing to use you, a failed spiritual build from birth, to tell another of His own failed spiritual creation something about the truth of God's spiritual nature and presence. Not a good position for team theism.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Elaborate. Or can you?
#46... But more specifically, Jesus is the dancing Leprechan you are asking to get off his butt and free/save you.... but the proof that that is going to work comes after the table, the chairs, the scissors, and the 2 people have all gone away. Kind of silly when you think about it.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
No it doesn't. God doesn't need me. I need Him.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
No, your thought experiment explicitly involved you convincing someone without your vision that scissors exists that the other person should know about. Problem is that the characteristics of these scissors imply that they can tell poor Helen themselves.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
IMPLY? You mean you INFER. And fallaciously.
No, imply and used accurately to the scenario. This experiment is pretty simple. It's not hard to follow. It's just hard to defend as allegory to our relationship to god and each other. I don't possess any less capability than you to see what's on the table. You are adding things and attempting to say I am subtracting them. You possess no special vision.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
Right. So I reject your claim of having a 'spirit sense' because you cannot demonstrate it to me. If you could see something with your spirit sense and then we could verify it with our normal, human senses, then we could believe you.
For now we just say that you may have a spirit sense but there is no reason to believe it without evidence.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Wrong. All believers have spiritual eyes. I, like you, was once blind, but now I see.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Correct. Just stop making the mistake of thinking your own lack of evidence proves anything.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
I don't think the lack of evidence for god or your spirit sight proves anything. However, I think it is silly to believe in either god or your spirit sight without evidence.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
I agree. But I don't know anyone who does. Do you?
All believers in what? God?
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
You mean Whom. Jesus Christ.