Here is a good question for those who believe in a pre trib rapture?

[Yahweh will increase]

Now then, the belief of most pre tribbers, is that God is going to remove his church in a pre trib rapture to keep them safe from the tribulation plagues of God's wrath and then go back to dealing with the lost nation of Israel once again to save all of them.

Now here are a couple of questions for you.

1 How is God going to keep the nation of Israel safe from the plagues of God's wrath written about in The Book of Revelaiton when he had to remove the church to keep them safe from them?

For the belief is that the unbelieving Nation of Israel will be a war with all the other nations of the world during that same time, and therefore their problem wiill be that of the wrath of the Nations but not the wrath of God.

So then, how are they going to be kept safe from God's wrath and the plagues if he had to remove his church to keep them safe and especially when his wrath will be poured out on the wicked and which would include the Nations that are waring against the non believing Nation of Israel whiile they are at war with the all of the nations of the world at the same time?


If you don't see a big problem with your idea here, than I certainly don't know why, for there indeed is a big problem with your doctrine on this for certain, so what is your answer about it?

The fact is, that it doesn't make one bit of sense at all!

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Are you a preterist/partial preterist?

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Are you a preterist/partial preterist?

Absolutely not, no!

I am an amillennialist, at least that is what I would be called by most on this forum.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Absolutely not, no!

I am an amillennialist, at least that is what I would be called by most on this forum.

Oh, ok. Thank you for the clarification.

What would be the purpose of God allowing His children to go through the trib because as you and I are aware, we have no say in God's design?

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Oh, ok. Thank you for the clarification.

What would be the purpose of God allowing His children to go through the trib because as you and I are aware, we have no say in God's design?

First of all, the churches are confused about what the tribulation will be for believers and what it will be for the wicked, for it isn't the same for both and if you read Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 1 below, he explains this very clearly also.

2 Thessalonians 1
4 Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.

5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.


In the above you will notice that Paul makes a very clear distinction between were the trouble and tribulation is coming from for the church and where it is going to come from for the wicked who are persecuting the church.

Notice, that for the church, the trouble and tribulation is coming from the wicked in the form of persecution but for the wicked the trouble and tribulation is coming from God himself through Christ and part of the reason why also, will be because he is paying the wicked back for their persecution of the church.


Notice also, that Paul very clearly reveals, that as the judgments of God continue to fall upon the wicked, the church will be getting more and more relief from their persecutions because the wicked will become less and less upon the earth because of it.
So we see then, that the church will not suffer the judgments of God but instead they will suffer persecution and hatred from the world.

The scriptures are clear on this however, that "they who will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution" period and so we don't get out of it with any pre trib rapture like what is being falsely taught in the churches today.
Now for the answer to your question, I think if you read Jesus' words in his prayer of John 17, you will get the answer to that question, for we are here to be a witness to this lost and daying world and for God and Christ and therefore there would be no meaningful purpose in removing believers from the earth.
Jesus even says this in that prayer in John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
One last thing here, for in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and picking back up in verses 51-58 of the same chapter, Paul not only tells us when the rapture will occur in regards to the tribulation but also why it will occur also.
For the whole chapter is about the future resurrection at Christ's coming and of which the rapture will follow after.

Also, once someone has already died, God could resurrect them any time he would choose to, but in order to keep those who are still alive and waiting for Jesus' return from having to die physically, death would have to be put under the feet of Jesus for them.
This is exactly what Paul reveals will happen in that 26th verse as seen below.

1 Corinthians 15:26 "the last enemy that will be destroyed is death" and that will result in the rapture of the church when Chrst does this also.
Remember sin is what causes our physical death and although we have had sin removed from our inner man or heart at our conversion, it still abides in our flesh.

Therefore, in order for death to be put under the feet of Jesus so that those left alive after the persecution will not have to die physical, the sin that remains in their flesh, will have to be put under the feet of Jesus first and Paul also covers this as well in the verses below..

1 Corinthians 15: 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (die physically), but we will all be changed (sin will be put under the feet of Jesus and removed from our flesh completely and forever)— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (no more sin and therefore no more death either) .


Bingo, this is when the resurrection will occur first and then those who are alive and waiting for Jesus' return will be raptured up into the air to meet the Lord in the clouds and to be taken up and to be delivered unto God even the Father in heaven.


Paul also tells us in verse 24 that this will occur at the very end of the age and the tribulation and in agreement with Jesus' own words in Matthew 24:29-36 also.

It couldn't have been revealed by Paul any clearer either.

 

[puddleglum]

Now then, the belief of most pre tribbers, is that God is going to remove his church in a pre trib rapture to keep them safe from the tribulation plagues of God's wrath and then go back to dealing with the lost nation of Israel once again to save all of them.

There is one mistake in this statement. The reason God will remove believers is not to keep them safe from the tribulation but to allow the Beast to come to power. The Tribulation is God's judgment on the world. Just as the angels could not destroy Sodom until Lot was removed, God cannot bring the full weight of his judgment on the earth until the Church is taken out.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

There is one mistake in this statement. The reason God will remove believers is not to keep them safe from the tribulation but to allow the Beast to come to power. The Tribulation is God's judgment on the world. Just as the angels could not destroy Sodom until Lot was removed, God cannot bring the full weight of his judgment on the earth until the Church is taken out.

That is totally false, but I know where whoever taught you that got that false idea from.

It was taken from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7, but Paul was not saying that who was holding the man of sin back would be removed by the Holy Spirit in the church being removed, that is false and the very first verse proves this also.

For in that first verse Paul very clearly tells us that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him and which is a reference to his coming our being caught up to meet him there, would not happen until first there was a great apostasy and the man of sin was revealed.

So that interpretation is false.

What Paul is actually saying in this text, is that the apostasy (falling away from the truth by the church) would be what removes that which restrains in verse 5-6 and which is the truth of the scriptures and then after the truth is removed by the apostasy, then the Holy Spirit who is him who restrains from verse7 being grieved would remove himself also from the church.

So it is the backslidden and apostate church that will enable the spirit of antichrist working through the man of sin to enter into the pictures and not this unsupported by scripture pre trib rapture that the apostate churchs are deceiving the masses with. .

Furthermore, Paul in verse 7 very clearly tells us that the apostasy "mystery of iniquity" was already at work within the church (NT Temple of God) when he was still alive but it hadn't taken root enough yet to totally remove the truth or the Holy Spirit.


There is also even much false doctrine about what the beast really is and about what the spirit of antichrist and the man of sin is referring to, but I don't want to get into that right now.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

There is one mistake in this statement. The reason God will remove believers is not to keep them safe from the tribulation but to allow the Beast to come to power. The Tribulation is God's judgment on the world. Just as the angels could not destroy Sodom until Lot was removed, God cannot bring the full weight of his judgment on the earth until the Church is taken out.

Now, after you have read my first reply to this, we need to go back to the question that I asked.

Your apostate church leaders who teach a pre trib rapture also teach that God has not called the church to his wrath and therefore that is still one of the reason why the church will be removed in their false doctrine about it.

However, God never actually removed Lot or Noah and his family from the earth to keep them from the harm of his judgements and in fact, God used the same flood of water that killed all of the wicked to save Noah and his family and one NT writer also used this as a type of water baptism for believers.


Now back to the question, if God has to remove his church to keep them save from his judgements and like many of your church leaders will use as an argument for a pre trib rapture, then how will he keep Israel from them while they are fighting this supposed war with the Nations while the judgments are being poured out on the earth?

By the way, I used the words "supposed war with the Nations" because that is another false doctrine that your churches are teaching, that the battle of Armegeddon will be a war between the ethnic nation of Israel and all of the other nations of the earth.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

First of all, the churches are confused about what the tribulation will be for believers and what it will be for the wicked, for it isn't the same for both and if you read Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 1 below, he explains this very clearly also.

2 Thessalonians 1
4 Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.

5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.


In the above you will notice that Paul makes a very clear distinction between were the trouble and tribulation is coming from for the church and where it is going to come from for the wicked who are persecuting the church.

Notice, that for the church, the trouble and tribulation is coming from the wicked in the form of persecution but for the wicked the trouble and tribulation is coming from God himself through Christ and part of the reason why also, will be because he is paying the wicked back for their persecution of the church.


Notice also, that Paul very clearly reveals, that as the judgments of God continue to fall upon the wicked, the church will be getting more and more relief from their persecutions because the wicked will become less and less upon the earth because of it.
So we see then, that the church will not suffer the judgments of God but instead they will suffer persecution and hatred from the world.

The scriptures are clear on this however, that "they who will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution" period and so we don't get out of it with any pre trib rapture like what is being falsely taught in the churches today.
Now for the answer to your question, I think if you read Jesus' words in his prayer of John 17, you will get the answer to that question, for we are here to be a witness to this lost and daying world and for God and Christ and therefore there would be no meaningful purpose in removing believers from the earth.
Jesus even says this in that prayer in John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
One last thing here, for in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and picking back up in verses 51-58 of the same chapter, Paul not only tells us when the rapture will occur in regards to the tribulation but also why it will occur also.
For the whole chapter is about the future resurrection at Christ's coming and of which the rapture will follow after.

Also, once someone has already died, God could resurrect them any time he would choose to, but in order to keep those who are still alive and waiting for Jesus' return from having to die physically, death would have to be put under the feet of Jesus for them.
This is exactly what Paul reveals will happen in that 26th verse as seen below.

1 Corinthians 15:26 "the last enemy that will be destroyed is death" and that will result in the rapture of the church when Chrst does this also.
Remember sin is what causes our physical death and although we have had sin removed from our inner man or heart at our conversion, it still abides in our flesh.

Therefore, in order for death to be put under the feet of Jesus so that those left alive after the persecution will not have to die physical, the sin that remains in their flesh, will have to be put under the feet of Jesus first and Paul also covers this as well in the verses below..

1 Corinthians 15: 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (die physically), but we will all be changed (sin will be put under the feet of Jesus and removed from our flesh completely and forever)— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (no more sin and therefore no more death either) .


Bingo, this is when the resurrection will occur first and then those who are alive and waiting for Jesus' return will be raptured up into the air to meet the Lord in the clouds and to be taken up and to be delivered unto God even the Father in heaven.


Paul also tells us in verse 24 that this will occur at the very end of the age and the tribulation and in agreement with Jesus' own words in Matthew 24:29-36 also.

It couldn't have been revealed by Paul any clearer either.

I'm not ignoring or avoiding, I plan on commenting as time allows.

 

[GeneZ]

1 How is God going to keep the nation of Israel safe from the plagues of God's wrath written about in The Book of Revelaiton when he had to remove the church to keep them safe from them?

Taken out of the wrath is only a relatively minor part of it.

Yes... when the church is removed from the earth they are spared of the horrors of the Tribulation.
That is true.

But? What will the church be doing for seven years?
Twiddling our thumbs?

No!

In Heaven the Lord is going to evaluate every church age believer.
Evaluate to determine what they shall be partaking of during the Millennial reign of Christ.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up,
the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping
through the flames.​

1 Corinthians 3:11-15


During the seven years in Heaven the Church will need to be trained and prepared for the Lord's returning to earth.
For only some after the evaluation will be chosen to reign with Him. That training must be done before He returns.

Also, during those seven years the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place.
"Marriage." Because the "RESURRECTION BODY Church" was made to be 'one flesh' with the Lord.

So? ....

I would say to be taken out of the pains of the Tribulation will at that time be seen as only a minor perk when its compared
to all the great things that will happen to the Raptured Church in Heaven during the seven year wait.

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—
just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give that one the morning star." Revelation 2:26-28​

The evaluation of believers in Heaven will reveal who are the ones qualified to be awarded to reign with Him.
That evaluation of the saints will take place in Heaven, only after the Rapture, while the Tribulation is taking place on earth below.

After the seven year wait? Having been made ready to return with Jesus? He will return with his angels and his saints.
He will clear the earth of all evil.

Then... With those so awarded? Returning to reign with Him to rule the new earth for 1000 years.

grace and peace .............

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Taken out of the wrath is only a relatively minor part of it.

Yes... when the church is removed from the earth they are spared of the horrors of the Tribulation.
That is true.

But? What will the church be doing for seven years?
Twiddling our thumbs?

No!

In Heaven the Lord is going to evaluate every church age believer.
Evaluate to determine what they shall be partaking of during the Millennial reign of Christ.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be ​

revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. ​

​

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, ​

the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping ​

through the flames.​

1 Corinthians 3:11-15


During the seven years in Heaven the Church will need to be trained and prepared for the Lord's returning to earth.
For only some after the evaluation will be chosen to reign with Him. That training must be done before He returns.

Also, during those seven years the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place.
"Marriage." Because the "RESURRECTION BODY Church" was made to be 'one flesh' with the Lord.

So? ....

I would say to be taken out of the pains of the Tribulation will at that time be seen as only a minor perk when its compared
to all the great things that will happen to the Raptured Church in Heaven during the seven year wait.

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— ​

that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—​

just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give that one the morning star." Revelation 2:26-28​

The evaluation of believers in Heaven will reveal who are the ones qualified to be awarded to reign with Him.
That evaluation of the saints will take place in Heaven, only after the Rapture, while the Tribulation is taking place on earth below.

After the seven year wait? Having been made ready to return with Jesus? He will return with his angels and his saints.
He will clear the earth of all evil.

Then... With those so awarded? Returning to reign with Him to rule the new earth for 1000 years.

grace and peace .............

I can see that you have been well indoctrinated with the heresy of the mainstream churches but I am sorry, there won't be any pre trib rapture of the church and it was never taught in the scriptures either and Jesus only spoke of him returning once and in John 6:39 Jesus said that he would raise the believer up on the last day.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

By the way, you didn't answer the question so here it is again.

If God has to remove his church from the earth in order to keep them safe from his wrath during the Tribulation, then how will he keep the Jews safe that your churches believe will be spared from it and will all be saved at the end?



The fact is, that Paul wrote a whole chapter on the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 and in that chapter he not only tells us when the rapture will occur in regards to the tribulation and end of trhe age but he also reveals why those who are alive and waiting for Christ's return will not have to die physically.

Here it is and pay close attention.



1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ (past tense), the firstfruits (past tense) then, when he comes, those who belong to him (future tense). 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death (bingo the rapture)


First off, Paul only mentions one future resurrection, for the resurrection of Christ is past tense and so was the resurrection of the firstfruits as well and you can read about them in Matthew 27:51-53 and they were only raised for a sign to all of the people and it was a relatively small group also.

Then if you read on in verse 24, Paul calls it the end when those who belong to him at His coming are resurrected and raptured and then he says that this will be when Jesus also delivers up the Kingdom unto God even the Father.

Notice, he delivers the Kingdom up unto God whom he just resurrected and raptured.

Then this is the important part in verses 25 and 26, for this will only happen after he first destroys all dominion, authority and power and then notice this in verse 26, The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.


Now then I want you to think about this

Why do Christians have to die physically and wouldn't you say that death for God's saints is also one of his enemies?

How about sin within the flesh of God's saints, is that one of God's enemies also?

For although sin is removed from the believers heart at conversion, it still abides in their fless and sin is the believers flesh is what causes their physical death.

Therefore although God can resurrect those who have already died any time he wants, in order for him to keep his saints who haven't died yet from dying, death would have to be destroyed following after the sin within their flesh first.

This brings us to verse 51 of the same context and chapter. so pay close attention.


1 Corinthians 15:51 "We shall not all die but we shall be changed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye and at the last trump.

Are you getting the picture here?

Paul is revealing that this change will be when sin is destroyed within the flesh of the believer and immortality will follow so that they won't have to die physically ever again and this is becuase Jesus will have put it under his feet and destroyed it within them as God's last enemy and just as Paul says in verse 26.

This is also why Paul is mentioning it in this chapter that is all about the resurredtion also because death being put under the feet of Jesus as the last of God's enemies to be destroyed is the very reason why there will be a rapture following after the resurrection, for it is all related.

That is what he is saying in this chapter and notice the word "last" that he uses, "the last enemy that will be destroyed is death" and "at the last trump" and the last is the last period and this is the end when he shall deliver up the Kingdom that he resurrects and raptures unto God even the Father.

Therefore after the smoke clears at the very end of the tribulation, the only people that will remain on the earth will be the believers who escaped death because Jesus put it under his feet and destroyed it within them and as the last enemy,

Nevertheless, they will not remain on this earth for very long for immediately when death is put under Jesus' feet they will be removed very quckly in the rapture following the resurrection.


Paul couldn't have made this any clearer or easier to understand and follow either and this is why your churches are not walking in the truth or in the true faith either.

For this is one of the easiest doctrines to understand correctly but they don't understand it and that is proof that they are corrupt in their doctrines.

Look at David Jeremiah, is is now making a profit off of his new book called "the Great disappearance" and it is nothing but a bunch of false nonsense that is never going to happen because it is not what the scriptures teach.

 

[shroom]

For this is one of the easiest doctrines to understand correctly

If it was, everyone would agree.

For the record, I agree with GeneZ. (on this, not on everything..)

 

[GeneZ]

I can see that you have been well indoctrinated with the heresy of the mainstream churches but I am sorry, there won't be any pre trib rapture of the church and it was never taught in the scriptures either and Jesus only spoke of him returning once and in John 6:39 Jesus said that he would raise the believer up on the last day.

Yahweh = Your way.

Not His way....


This might help ................

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Yahweh = Your way.

Not His way....


This might help ................

Your response above is no surprise to me because this is what happens after one has been well indoctrinated with a counterfeit of the truth in the scriptures.


This is what Jesus pointed out to his disciples also from Matthew 11 below.


Matthew 11: 25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have HDDEN THESE THINGS from the wise and learned, and REVEALED THEM to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.


In the above passage when Jesus speaks of the wise and learned, he is speaking of the Jews who put their trust in the wrong way of learning the scriptures and just like your churches are teaching today and which is why the truth of the scriptures will remain hidden to you also.

In contrast to that, little children always humble themselves and go directly to their parents and ask them for their understanding.

"For what man among you if his son asks for a fish will he give him a serpent and if he asks for bread will he give him a stone and if you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit (spiritual understanding of the scripture) to those who ask him".

For while you think that you and your churches are doing things Yahweh's way, you are actually rejecting Yahweh's way because you have substituted the Holy Spirit for the reasoning and intellect of flesh and blood and for this reason, God has blinded your heart so you cannot see the truth in his word even one it is staring you right in the face.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 "For this reason, God will send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie and that they all might be damned who loved not the truth but took pleasure in what is not right".


Sorry but there will be no rapture of the church until that last enemy of death is put under the feet of Jesus and destroyed so that his people who are waiting for his return will no longer have to die physically and Paul made this very clear in his chapter about the resurrection 1 Corinthians 15.


This will also be the end period, when Jesus will deliver up the Kingdom that he has resurrected and raptured up unto God even the Father and after he has put down and destroyed all of God's enemies and all means all also and this also couldn't have been made any clearer in Paul's words of 1 Corinthnians 15:22=26.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

If it was, everyone would agree.

The only reason why it isn't easy to understand is because men are not using the mind of Christ from the Holy Spirit to understand it with and instead they have replaced the Holy Spirit with the intellect of the flesh and just like what was going on in the church of Corinth many years ago.

That is why they were in division just like your churches are today also.

Ah but they don't like to use that word divisions so they use the word "denominations" instead so that they don't have to acknoledge the fact that they are carnal like Paul said that these divisions revealed.

For the record, I agree with GeneZ. (on this, not on everything..)

No doubt it is because you have been indoctrinated and brainwashed in this false teaching for a long time just like I was before God cleared my thinking so that I could see the genuine truth to be able to also see the many contradictions in this false doctrine of the pre trib rapture.


Did you even bother reading or paying attention to what I showed him from 1 Corithians 15:22-26 and 51-58?


Paul very clearly not only tells us when the rapture will happen in regards to the tribulation but he also tells us why it will happen and it will happen when Christ puts that last enemy death under his feet and that is why Paul reveals this in this chapter which is all about the resurrection also.

Because it is in relation to the resurrection for the rapture follows right after it and therefore Paul reveals not only when it will take place in regards to the tribulation but why it will happen also .


So then if Paul as inspired by the Holy Spirit has revealed for us the when and why of the resurrection and rapture like he most assuredly has in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and picking back up in verses 51-58, and we still go on believing and teaching what the scriptures never teach anyhow, what does that make us?

Read 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Peter 2:1-2 and you will see what that makes us.

At some point, you are going to have to make a clear decision as to whether you will continue to attempt to learn of God through the flesh like you are now or by the Holy Spirit like we instructed to in the scriptures

Very clearly Jesus in John 16:13-15 told us that the Holy Spirit would be sent to lead us into all truth, not the carnal human reasoning and wisdom but rather the Holy Spirit period and Paul reveals the same in 1 Corinthians 2:11-16 as well.

 

[shroom]

The only reason why it isn't easy to understand is because men are not using the mind of Christ from the Holy Spirit to understand it with and instead they have replaced the Holy Spirit with the intellect of the flesh and just like what was going on in the church of Corinth many years ago.

That is why they were in division just like your churches are today also.

Ah but they don't like to use that word divisions so they use the word "denominations" instead so that they don't have to acknoledge the fact that they are carnal like Paul said that these divisions revealed.


No doubt it is because you have been indoctrinated and brainwashed in this false teaching for a long time just like I was before God cleared my thinking so that I could see the genuine truth to be able to also see the many contradictions in this false doctrine of the pre trib rapture.


Did you even bother reading or paying attention to what I showed him from 1 Corithians 15:22-26 and 51-58?


Paul very clearly not only tells us when the rapture will happen in regards to the tribulation but he also tells us why it will happen and it will happen when Christ puts that last enemy death under his feet and that is why Paul reveals this in this chapter which is all about the resurrection also.

Because it is in relation to the resurrection for the rapture follows right after it and therefore Paul reveals not only when it will take place in regards to the tribulation but why it will happen also .


So then if Paul as inspired by the Holy Spirit has revealed for us the when and why of the resurrection and rapture like he most assuredly has in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and picking back up in verses 51-58, and we still go on believing and teaching what the scriptures never teach anyhow, what does that make us?

Read 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Peter 2:1-2 and you will see what that makes us.

At some point, you are going to have to make a clear decision as to whether you will continue to attempt to learn of God through the flesh like you are now or by the Holy Spirit like we instructed to in the scriputres.

Very clearly Jesus in John 16:13-15 told us that the Holy Spirit would be sent to lead us into all truth, not the carnal human reasoning and wisdom but rather the Holy Spirit period and Paul reveals the same in 1 Corinthians 2:11-16 as well.

Unfortunately it's quite common for people to accuse people who disagree with them of being brainwashed and not "using the mind of Christ from the Holy Spirit," believing God cleared their mind but everyone else is left in confusion.

I have read your posts. I do not agree. 1 Cor 15:22-26 are not about the rapture. 1 Cor 15:51-58 are. The rapture will not follow the first resurrection, it will precede it by 7+ years.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Unfortunately it's quite common for people to accuse people who disagree with them of being brainwashed and not "using the mind of Christ from the Holy Spirit," believing God cleared their mind but everyone else is left in confusion.

I have read your posts. I do not agree. 1 Cor 15:22-26 are not about the rapture. 1 Cor 15:51-58 are. The rapture will not follow the first resurrection, it will precede it by 7+ years.

The above proves that you are brainwashed becasue the whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is about the resurrection and the rapture follows right after it, so suppose you tell us then what verses 22=26 really mean then and why Paul included them in this chapter about the resurrection?

For just saying that it isn't about the rapture doesn't mean a thing unless you can prove it by the actual scriptures and the context and you can't and you know it, for why else would Paul have included it in this chapter that was all about the resurrection then?

By the way, how many resurrections would be necessary for your idea to be true, for you have one before the tribulation and you would have to have one afer the tribulation and at Christ's visible coming also and then there would have to be one more after your false idea about the 1000 years also and that makes three.

The problem is that Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:23 only speaks of one future resurrection and so does he in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 also and the first fruits mentioned in verse 23 of 1 Corinthians 15 were those who were resurrected following Christ and as per Matthew 27:51-53 and that is past tense and so there is only one left.


Sorry but this rules out your idea of a pre trib resurrection and rapture completely but you will soon enough see that as a fact if you are still alive when the world very soon goes into the great tribulation and you are still here to deal wiht it yourself also.

You will be running around like a chicken with his head cut off and asking what happen to the promise of his coming because you listened to your sooth sayers who told you that you wouldn't be here to have to deal with the tribulation.



Therefore you better believe verse 22-26 is relevant to verses 51 through 58, for what are you ever going to do when all hell is breaking out on this earth like it soon will be and there is no pre trib rapture to deliver you out of the stress of it all like you have been falsely led to believe there would be?

Don't tell me that you will be prepared for it either because you won't and that is because you have accepted hook line and sinker the sooth saying of those who have taught you this fable.

 

[shroom]

The above proves that you are brainwashed

Disagreeing with you does not automatically mean a person is brainwashed.

becasue the whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is about the resurrection and the rapture follows right after it, so suppose you tell us then what verses 22=26 really mean then and why Paul included them in this chapter about the resurrection?

For just saying that it isn't about the rapture doesn't mean a thing unless you can prove it by the actual scriptures and the context and you can't and you know it, for why else would Paul have included it in this chapter that was all about the resurrection then?

By the way, how many resurrections would be necessary for your idea to be true, for you have one before the tribulation and you would have to have one afer the tribulation and at Christ's visible coming also and then there would have to be one more after your false idea about the 1000 years also and that makes three.

Yes, I believe there will be three separate times that people will be raised from the dead. 1) the rapture, 2) the resurrection of the just, 3) the resurrection at the white throne judgment.

The problem is that Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:23 only speaks of one future resurrection

Revelation in the Bible is progressive. Paul knew about resurrection, but he did not know there would be two, which are clearly laid out in Rev 20. Additionally, Paul was given revelation about the rapture (1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff).

and so does he in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 also and the first fruits mentioned in verse 23 of 1 Corinthians 15 were those who were resurrected following Christ and as per Matthew 27:51-53 and that is past tense and so there is only one left.

Sorry but this rules out your idea of a pre trib resurrection and rapture completely but you will soon enough see that as a fact if you are still alive when the world very soon goes into the great tribulation and you are still here to deal wiht it yourself also.

You will be running around like a chicken with his head cut off and asking what happen to the promise of his coming because you listened to your sooth sayers who told you that you wouldn't be here to have to deal with the tribulation.

If the trib starts happening and we're still here, I'll change my thinking and adapt.

Therefore you better believe verse 22-26 is relevant to verses 51 through 58, for what are you ever going to do when all hell is breaking out on this earth like it soon will be and there is no pre trib rapture to deliver you out of the stress of it all like you have been falsely led to believe there would be?

I too think we're very near the end times. It's an exciting time to be alive, IMO.

Don't tell me that you will be prepared for it either because you won't and that is because you have accepted hook line and sinker the sooth saying of those who have taught you this fable.

Again, if the trib starts happening and we're still here, I'll change my thinking and adapt.

 

[CrowCross]

Now then, the belief of most pre tribbers, is that God is going to remove his church in a pre trib rapture to keep them safe from the tribulation plagues of God's wrath and then go back to dealing with the lost nation of Israel once again to save all of them.

Now here are a couple of questions for you.

1 How is God going to keep the nation of Israel safe from the plagues of God's wrath written about in The Book of Revelaiton when he had to remove the church to keep them safe from them?

Where does the bible say God is going to keep the nation of Israel...as well as the rest of the world safe from the plagues?

For the belief is that the unbelieving Nation of Israel will be a war with all the other nations of the world during that same time, and therefore their problem wiill be that of the wrath of the Nations but not the wrath of God.

Will we not see two wraths?

The wrath of Satan as well as the wrath of God?

So then, how are they going to be kept safe from God's wrath and the plagues if he had to remove his church to keep them safe and especially when his wrath will be poured out on the wicked and which would include the Nations that are waring against the non believing Nation of Israel whiile they are at war with the all of the nations of the world at the same time?


If you don't see a big problem with your idea here, than I certainly don't know why, for there indeed is a big problem with your doctrine on this for certain, so what is your answer about it?

Sorry, but I'm failing to see your big problem.

The fact is, that it doesn't make one bit of sense at all!

How will you escape the wrath?

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Disagreeing with you does not automatically mean a person is brainwashed.

No but what does is when the person says that 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 has nothing to do with the subject matter of the whole chapter like you did.

Yes, I believe there will be three separate times that people will be raised from the dead. 1) the rapture, 2) the resurrection of the just, 3) the resurrection at the white throne judgment.

Where is your support from the actual scripture for this? You don't have any and you know you don't and that means that this is not scriptural but rather a private interpretation not given by any inspired by the Holy Spirit writer of scriptures and which is also quite foolish as well.

Revelation in the Bible is progressive. Paul knew about resurrection, but he did not know there would be two, which are clearly laid out in Rev 20. Additionally, Paul was given revelation about the rapture (1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff).

Oh bunk, that is totally false, for Paul certainly knew more than you do and that is why he was chosen by God to write 13 books of the Bible and you weren't chosen to write any.

Furthermore, if Paul didn't know about it and didn't write about it, who did and where are you getting it from?

You better wake up and wake up fast becasue you are running out of time to get yourself prepared for what is soon going to happen on this earth.

If the trib starts happening and we're still here, I'll change my thinking and adapt.

It isn't that simple, for the scriptures are given to us to prepare us for anything that comes at us in this life and if you have occupied yourself with false ideas and sooth saying about the Tribulation, resurrectiona and rapture then it will cause a lot of unnessary stress in you when you find out it isn't going to happen like you were falsely led to believe.

If you read the OT, this is why God warned the people about the sooth saying false prophets of those times, because they didn't prepare the people for what would be coming at them and which God also allowed to get them back on the right track

I too think we're very near the end times. It's an exciting time to be alive, IMO.

Yes and that is probably because you think you will escape the need to trust in God through it with your life becasue you believe you will not be here when it all begins to happen and which is why this false teaching is so dangerous also and this is because you are going to fold in and fall apart with your faith because of it.

Again, if the trib starts happening and we're still here, I'll change my thinking and adapt.

Is that your hope and excuse for believing the sooth saying of the pre trib rapture?


Now let me ask you once again, if 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 is not connected to the end times in which the resurrectiona and rapture of the church is being revealed by Paul and which the whole chapter is all about, then what is the true meaning of it.

Or did you just say this with no true knowledge of what you are talking about in order to reject what I showed you from that chapter?