Here is why eschatology is so crucial to the debate over predestination.

Carbon

Well-known member
Same here. After giving this more thought here is a better picture of what I was thinking.

Christians have always believed that God transcends time. Time is a creation of God which we, his creation, experience. Everything to God is PRESENT; there is no past, "present" or future. Everything that has happened, is happening or will happen, is ALL PRESENT to God.

Given that, it is difficult to talk about whether something presently exists, because we are referring to a dimension [time] which does not exist for God.

So my question to the chaplain was does heaven exist right now? I mean fully exist. Are we there In some spiritual form now? He said no.

Even a righteous man like King David, whom God called a man after His own heart, is not in Heaven. “For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:34). Jesus Christ confirmed this when He said, “No one has ascended into heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven” (John 3:13).

It's important to distinguish between the present heaven and the future heaven. The present heaven is where God is right now, and that is where we go the moment we die. We go into the presence of God, but that is not our eternal dwelling place. In John 14:2-3, Jesus said He is in that present heaven preparing a new place for us. Heaven, where God is, is already prepared, but Jesus is working on a new location for us.

The new heaven, that's what I'm talking about.
Wow, that really turned it up a notch!

Interesting. I’m gonna have to chew on this a while. I’m keeping my learning cap on. 🙂
 

Carbon

Well-known member
No it is held Christ came in judgment at 70 A.D.

A non literal coming which could be understood but not seen

often termed "coming in the clouds"

but any divine judgment may be termed a "coming"

Isaiah 19:1 (KJV 1900)

The burden of Egypt.
Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt:
And the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence,
And the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Isaiah 31:4 (KJV 1900)
4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me,
Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey,
When a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him,
He will not be afraid of their voice,
Nor abase himself for the noise of them:
So shall the LORD of hosts come down
To fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.

Isaiah 66:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire,
And with his chariots like a whirlwind,
To render his anger with fury,
And his rebuke with flames of fire.
Good point.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Coming in judgment 70 A.D. not a literal coming

second time at the commencement

yes
His Coming in both testaments is always literal, never figurative. Its EVERY EYE WILL SEE Him just as He said in Matthew 24 and other places. His 2nd Coming is the Terrible Day of the Lord where He pours out His Wrath upon the entire world in Judgment.

That has not happened in any way, shape or form. There has to be some texas two stepping to get around it imho.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Gods Wrath lets first define what it is and what it is not

3709. orgé
Strong's Concordance
orgé: impulse, wrath​
Original Word: ὀργή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: orgé
Phonetic Spelling: (or-gay')
Definition: impulse, wrath
Usage: anger, wrath, passion; punishment, vengeance.
HELPS Word-studies
3709 orgḗ (from orgáō, "to teem, swelling up to constitutionally oppose") – properly, settled anger (opposition), i.e. rising up from an ongoing (fixed) opposition.
3709 /orgḗ ("settled anger") proceeds from an internal disposition which steadfastly opposes someone or something based on extended personal exposure, i.e. solidifying what the beholder considers wrong (unjust, evil).
["Orgē comes from the verb oragō meaning, 'to teem, to swell'; and thus implies that it is not a sudden outburst, but rather (referring to God's) fixed, controlled, passionate feeling against sin . . . a settled indignation (so Hendriksen)" (D. E. Hiebert, at 1 Thes 1:10).]
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. word
Definition
impulse, wrath
NASB Translation
anger (6), wrath (30).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3709: ὀργή

ὀργή, ὀργῆς, ἡ (from ὀργάω to teem, denoting an internal motion, especially that of plants and fruits swelling with juice (Curtius, § 152); cf. Latinturgerealicui forirascialicui in Plautus Cas. 2, 5, 17; Most. 3, 2, 10; cf. German arg, Aerger), in Greek writings from Hesiod down "the natural disposition, temper, character; movement or agitation of soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion," but especially (and chiefly in Attic) anger. In Biblical Greek anger, wrath, indignation (on the distinction between it and θυμός, see θυμός, 1): Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8; James 1:19f; μετ' ὀργῆς, indignant (A. V. with anger), Mark 3:5; χωρίς ὀργῆς, 1 Timothy 2:8; anger exhibited in punishing, hence, used for the punishment itself (Demosthenes or. in middle § 43): of the punishments inflicted by magistrates, Romans 13:4; διά τήν ὀργήν, i. e. because disobedience is visited with punishment, Romans 13:5. The ὀργή attributed to God in the N. T. is that in God which stands opposed to man's disobedience, obduracy (especially in resisting the gospel) and sin, and manifests itself in punishing the same: John 3:36; Romans 1:18; Romans 4:15; Romans 9:22a; Hebrews 3:11; Hebrews 4:3; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:15; absolutely, ἡ ὀργή, Romans 12:19 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 594 (553)); σκεύη ὀργῆς, vessels into which wrath will be poured (at the last day), explained by the addition κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀπώλειαν, Romans 9:22b; ἡ μελλουσα ὀργή, which at the last day will be exhibited in penalties, Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7 (others understand in these two passages the (national) judgments immediately impending to be referred to — at least primarily); also ἡ ὀργή ἡ ἐρχομένη, 1 Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέρα ὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 2 a.), Romans 2:5; and ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλη τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ (Revelation 6:17; see ἡμέρα, 3 at the end); ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐπί τινα, the wrath of God cometh upon one in the infliction of penalty (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 2 a.), Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6 (T Tr WH omit; L brackets ἐπί etc.); ἔφθασε (ἔφθακεν L text WH marginal reading) ἐπ' αὐτούς ἡ ὀργή, 1 Thessalonians 2:16; so ἡ ὀργή passes over into the notion of retribution and punishment, Luke 21:23; Rom. (Romans 2:8); ; Revelation 11:18; τέκνα ὀργῆς, men exposed to divine punishment, Ephesians 2:3; εἰς ὀργήν, unto wrath, i. e. to undergo punishment in misery, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge, Revelation 6:16. (The Sept. for עֶבְרָה, wrath, outburst of anger, זַעַם, חֵמָה, חָרון, קֶצֶף, etc.; but chiefly for אַף.) Cf. Ferd. Weber, Vom Zorne Gottes. Erlang. 1862; Ritschl, Die christl. Lehre v. d. Rechtfertigung u. Versöhnung, ii., p. 118ff.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.
From oregomai; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment -- anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Uses in the N.T. below

Englishman's Concordance
Matthew 3:7 N-GFS
GRK: τῆς μελλούσης ὀργῆς
NAS: you to flee from the wrath to come?
KJV: to flee from the wrath to come?
INT: the coming wrath

Mark 3:5 N-GFS
GRK: αὐτοὺς μετ' ὀργῆς συλλυπούμενος ἐπὶ
NAS: After looking around at them with anger, grieved
KJV: on them with anger, being grieved for
INT: them with anger being grieved at

Luke 3:7 N-GFS
GRK: τῆς μελλούσης ὀργῆς
NAS: you to flee from the wrath to come?
KJV: to flee from the wrath to come?
INT: the coming wrath

Luke 21:23 N-NFS
GRK: γῆς καὶ ὀργὴ τῷ λαῷ
NAS: upon the land and wrath to this
KJV: the land, and wrath upon this
INT: land and wrath those people

John 3:36 N-NFS
GRK: ἀλλ' ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: life, but the wrath of God
KJV: life; but the wrath of God abideth
INT: but the wrath of God

Romans 1:18 N-NFS
GRK: Ἀποκαλύπτεται γὰρ ὀργὴ θεοῦ ἀπ'
NAS: For the wrath of God is revealed
KJV: For the wrath of God is revealed
INT: there is revealed indeed wrath of God from

Romans 2:5 N-AFS
GRK: θησαυρίζεις σεαυτῷ ὀργὴν ἐν ἡμέρᾳ
NAS: you are storing up wrath for yourself
KJV: unto thyself wrath against
INT: treasure up to yourself wrath in a day

Romans 2:5 N-GFS
GRK: ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ὀργῆς καὶ ἀποκαλύψεως
NAS: in the day of wrath and revelation
KJV: the day of wrath and
INT: in a day of wrath and revelation

Romans 2:8 N-NFS
GRK: τῇ ἀδικίᾳ ὀργὴ καὶ θυμός
NAS: unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
KJV: indignation and wrath,
INT: unrighteousness wrath and anger

Romans 3:5 N-AFS
GRK: ἐπιφέρων τὴν ὀργήν κατὰ ἄνθρωπον
NAS: who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous,
KJV: who taketh vengeance? (I speak
INT: inflicts the wrath According to man

Romans 4:15 N-AFS
GRK: γὰρ νόμος ὀργὴν κατεργάζεται οὗ
NAS: brings about wrath, but where
KJV: the law worketh wrath: for where
INT: indeed law wrath brings where

Romans 5:9 N-GFS
GRK: ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς
NAS: we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] through
KJV: from wrath through
INT: from the wrath

Romans 9:22 N-AFS
GRK: ἐνδείξασθαι τὴν ὀργὴν καὶ γνωρίσαι
NAS: to demonstrate His wrath and to make
KJV: to shew [his] wrath, and
INT: to show the wrath and to make known

Romans 9:22 N-GFS
GRK: μακροθυμίᾳ σκεύη ὀργῆς κατηρτισμένα εἰς
NAS: vessels of wrath prepared
KJV: the vessels of wrath fitted
INT: patience vessels of wrath fitted for

Romans 12:19 N-DFS
GRK: τόπον τῇ ὀργῇ γέγραπται γάρ
NAS: room for the wrath [of God], for it is written,
KJV: place unto wrath: for
INT: place to wrath it has been written indeed

Romans 13:4 N-AFS
GRK: ἔκδικος εἰς ὀργὴν τῷ τὸ
NAS: an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices
KJV: a revenger to [execute] wrath upon
INT: an avenger for wrath to him that

Romans 13:5 N-AFS
GRK: διὰ τὴν ὀργὴν ἀλλὰ καὶ
NAS: because of wrath, but also
KJV: only for wrath, but also
INT: on account of the wrath but also
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Continued:


Ephesians 2:3 N-GFS
GRK: τέκνα φύσει ὀργῆς ὡς καὶ
NAS: children of wrath, even
KJV: the children of wrath, even
INT: children by nature of wrath as even

Ephesians 4:31 N-NFS
GRK: θυμὸς καὶ ὀργὴ καὶ κραυγὴ
NAS: and wrath and anger and clamor
KJV: wrath, and anger, and clamour,
INT: anger and wrath and clamour

Ephesians 5:6 N-NFS
GRK: ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: of these things the wrath of God
KJV: cometh the wrath of God
INT: comes the wrath of God

Colossians 3:6 N-NFS
GRK: ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: of these things that the wrath of God
KJV: which things' sake the wrath of God
INT: comes the wrath of God

Colossians 3:8 N-AFS
GRK: τὰ πάντα ὀργήν θυμόν κακίαν
NAS: them all aside: anger, wrath, malice,
KJV: all these; anger, wrath,
INT: all [these] things anger rage malice

1 Thessalonians 1:10 N-GFS
GRK: ἐκ τῆς ὀργῆς τῆς ἐρχομένης
NAS: who rescues us from the wrath to come.
KJV: us from the wrath to come.
INT: from the wrath coming

1 Thessalonians 2:16 N-NFS
GRK: αὐτοὺς ἡ ὀργὴ εἰς τέλος
NAS: of their sins. But wrath has come
KJV: alway: for the wrath is come upon
INT: them the wrath to the utmost

1 Thessalonians 5:9 N-AFS
GRK: θεὸς εἰς ὀργὴν ἀλλὰ εἰς
NAS: has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining
KJV: us to wrath, but to
INT: God for wrath but for
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
BTW- There is no biblical or extra- biblical evidence Christ Returned in 70ad.

If anyone has any source bring it forward. I would love to see it so I can dismantle it.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Also for those of you that hold to The Father pouring out His Divine Wrath in Judgement upon His Beloved Son read above who the recipients of Gods wrath is from the NT references above and there are plenty of the same in the OT.

And if you hold that position that indeed His wrath was poured upon the Son for sin and Divine Judgement/Wrath take this into consideration. At Jesus 2nd Coming He is pouring out His wrath upon this world in Judgement and if we read what happens no one escapes the Day of His wrath.

So if He bore Gods wrath for His church on the cross then for the church to be here while that wrath is being poured out is to make the wrath He bore of no effect since its happening once again. Gods wrath is ALWAYS upon the WICKED- the Haters of God, not upon His Redeemed/ His Bride, His church.

Food for thought.
 

Predestined

Well-known member
BTW- There is no biblical or extra- biblical evidence Christ Returned in 70ad.

If anyone has any source bring it forward. I would love to see it so I can dismantle it.
There is none that I know of although in the studying I'm currently doing Christ having returned in 70 A.D. keeps popping up. I keep ignoring it as it's something I've never been taught nor do I believe it.
 

fltom

Well-known member
His Coming in both testaments is always literal, never figurative. Its EVERY EYE WILL SEE Him just as He said in Matthew 24 and other places. His 2nd Coming is the Terrible Day of the Lord where He pours out His Wrath upon the entire world in Judgment.

That has not happened in any way, shape or form. There has to be some texas two stepping to get around it imho.
Well that is a claim

but these are what happens at his coming


and


universal resurrection and rapture

universal judgment

new heaven and earth

the end of Christ's reign

there is no place for a 1000 year millenium after Christ's advent

no seven year pretrib rapture. resurrection and rapture happen at the same time

prophesy is not like reading a newspaper sometimes it is obscure and or figurative/spiritual

Sometimes events are collapsed into others

There is but one literal visible return at the end of the church age in which all the things mentioned above transpire

The events of 70 A.D. were a visible event which could be seen as a non literal Christ coming in judgment or you could say there is but one literal visible return
 
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Predestined

Well-known member
Also for those of you that hold to The Father pouring out His Divine Wrath in Judgement upon His Beloved Son read above who the recipients of Gods wrath is from the NT references above and there are plenty of the same in the OT.

And if you hold that position that indeed His wrath was poured upon the Son for sin and Divine Judgement/Wrath take this into consideration. At Jesus 2nd Coming He is pouring out His wrath upon this world in Judgement and if we read what happens no one escapes the Day of His wrath.

So if He bore Gods wrath for His church on the cross then for the church to be here while that wrath is being poured out is to make the wrath He bore of no effect since its happening once again. Gods wrath is ALWAYS upon the WICKED- the Haters of God, not upon His Redeemed/ His Bride, His church.

Food for thought.
I kinda like to think of it as Hs wrath being satisfied rather than inflicted. The same way a cup of water being poured down your throat satisfies your thirst. Of course you have to be careful how you pour it. And I'm sure God was extremely careful dealing with His obedient Son on the cross.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
There is none that I know of although in the studying I'm currently doing Christ having returned in 70 A.D. keeps popping up. I keep ignoring it as it's something I've never been taught nor do I believe it.
My advice is do not believe it Christ is/was only coming 2 times period. Once was for 33 years for His atoning sacrifice for sin and to provide forgivenss. The 2nd time is for Judgment in His Divine wrath. That has not happened. This world has yet to see this wrath being poured out upon all mankind.

To say it happened in one small area of the world in 70ad is ridiculous. Read all the Major/ Mino Prophets on the Day of the Lord and all the NT references and Revelation.

I'm definitely not buying what they are selling.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I kinda like to think of it as Hs wrath being satisfied rather than inflicted. The same way a cup of water being poured down your throat satisfies your thirst. Of course you have to be careful how you pour it. And I'm sure God was extremely careful dealing with His obedient Son on the cross.
There is no way to get around the meaning of Gods wrath when you look at both Testaments and who the recipients are of that wrath. And there is no passage that says Jesus bore Gods wrath. So that is a double whammy in my book. But I know I'm in the minority here with Gods wrath poured out on the Son.

But look at the definition I provided and all the NT passages above about His wrath.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Well that is a claim

but these are what happens at his coming


and


universal resurrection and rapture

universal judgment

new heaven and earth

the end of Christ's reign

there is no place for a 1000 year millenium after Christ's advent

no seven year pretrib rapture. resurrection and rapture happen at the same time

prophesy is not like reading a newspaper sometimes it is obscure and or figurative/spiritual

The events of 70 A.D. were a visible event which could be seen as Christ coming in judgment
Provide evidence for His visible return.

Also John wrote Revelation after 70 ad. So it was yet to come.

next
 

fltom

Well-known member
Provide evidence for His visible return.

Also John wrote Revelation after 70 ad. So it was yet to come.

next
You do know the date of revelation is debated?

See before Jerusalem fell by Kenneth Gentry

His visible return is shown in all those passages I provided showing what happens at Christs return

You need to provide evidence for two visible returns separated by a 1000 years

update I noticed you made refererence to his first coming at the incarnation

so there is but one literal future return

I have no problem with that
 
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Chalcedon

Well-known member
You do know the date of revelation is debated?

See before Jerusalem fell by Kenneth Gentry

His visible return is shown in all those passages I provided showing what happens at Christs return

You need to provide evidence for two visible returns separated by a 1000 years

update I noticed you made refererence to his first coming at the incarnation

so there is but one literal future return

I have no problem with that
Tom I have a shelf full of books with all the views so I'm familiar with the arguments. We can agree to disagree.

I'm not all that dogmatic with eschatology even though I'm Pre- Trip/ Pre Mil
 
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