History of Film

[En Hakkore]

This thread was prompted by some casual references to TV shows and movies exchanged between Redeemed and me elsewhere. The broad topic of film history was agreed upon and I would warmly welcome others to join in. There are many ways to think about the history of film, a medium that is relatively young at only 125 years old.

We can think of changes in the technology of producing films such as matching sound tracks and CGI that have precipitated radical shifts in the finished product that appears on screen, as well as the advent of television and the VCR that provided competition to cinemas and eventually a venue for the 'made-for-TV movie' in the first case and an entirely new market for a resurgence of 'B' grade movies in the 'direct-to-video' phenomenon in the second case.

We can think in terms of movie cycles and the rise, fall and endurance of various 'genres' (Westerns, film noir, romantic comedies, epics, horrors, etc.), as well as other ways of classifying movies such as by director or by country of origin. Indeed, there is an entire world of movies beyond Hollywood from Italian neorealism to the French 'New Wave' to the lively choreography of Bollywood and everything in between.

We can think of the various ways and reasons movies have been censored, the ways they have been used to indoctrinate and perpetuate negative stereotypes or to effect positive social change. These are just a few of the ways we can think about film history...

Whoever we are and wherever we live, we have undoubtedly watched movies... films we've liked, films we've hated, films that elicited laughter, films that drew tears. This thread is intended as a friendly place to discuss this vast trove of cultural artefacts and how they connect to each other, events in history and reflect both our greatest sorrows and highest aspirations.

So, let's have some fun in an exploration of film history and remember the PG rating of this forum if linking to trailers or brief film clips.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Redeemed]

Tell me a story. When I was a kid my dad and uncles would sit around and tell stories from experiences in their lives. They would laugh and entertain each other by sharing those old memories. As I would sit on the sidelines and listen to them I could visualize in my minds eye the stories they were telling. It was just like watching a movie.

I think sharing our stories and life experiences is deeply ingrained in humanity. Take ancient hieroglyphic, cave paintings showing us how our ancestors hunted for food. So I think the invention of the film industry is a continuation of the desire for us to tell and to hear or visualize a story.

This is how we do it. Films can show us so much about so many things. About ourselves, about the world, exercise videos, how-to videos. You name it and you can find a film about it.

The technical aspect. This is pretty much overlooked as we want to view the end results. You can't have one without the other and it is pretty interesting how motion pictures were developed. There is some biology involved on the viewers part based on the optical phenomena known as persistence of vision and the phi phenomenon. (see article)

Were going to the movies! That's the best part... the entertainment value and how much fun it is. The popcorn, the candy, the soda and the good seat. It's an American tradition we love going to the movies. And the drive in, talk about a big screen! And no matter what your tastes are there's a movie for you, a whole list of movies actually.

But before I get too far ahead of myself, my next post will be about the transition from vaudeville to silent films.

 

[En Hakkore]

Tell me a story. When I was a kid my dad and uncles would sit around and tell stories from experiences in their lives. They would laugh and entertain each other by sharing those old memories. As I would sit on the sidelines and listen to them I could visualize in my minds eye the stories they were telling. It was just like watching a movie.

I think sharing our stories and life experiences is deeply ingrained in humanity. Take ancient hieroglyphic, cave paintings showing us how our ancestors hunted for food. So I think the invention of the film industry is a continuation of the desire for us to tell and to hear or visualize a story.

Thanks for sharing these insights about relating to each other through the telling and retelling of stories, film being a continuation of that cross-generational process. The swapping of folk tales orally, literary compositions and movies do not, indeed, succeed each other as exclusive modes of communication, but are interwoven media. Novel-to-film adaptations are, in this light, an intriguing phenomenon. An example to kick things off, one very relevant to the topic of humans and their stories, is Michael Ende's Die unendliche Geschichte (1979), better known here in North America from its screen adaptation The NeverEnding Story (1984). While I have it in English translation on my bookshelf, I've never read it through start to finish... the general consensus from those that have is that the film is a poor adaptation of the first half of the book. Movies circulate independent of their source texts and the degree to which they are or should be subordinate to the earlier form is one of several issues debated in media adaptation studies. My engagement below is with the film version alone.

To briefly summarize the plot, a bullied boy named Bastian begins reading a book titled The NeverEnding Story and becomes engrossed in the quest of young Atreyu to save Fantasia and its ailing Childlike Empress from the Nothing that threatens to destroy their world. As the story in the book unfolds, ostensibly independent of Bastian reading it, Atreyu learns that only a human child beyond the boundaries of Fantasia can save it. In an encounter with a servant of the Nothing, the boy learns that Fantasia is the realm of human fantasies and boundless except when humans lose hope in their dreams, which feeds the Nothing that destroys it. Upon reaching the empress with the destruction of the last remaining fragments of Fantasia imminent, Atreyu confesses failure in his quest but she tells him that he has succeeded by bringing with him the earthling who is the one to save them all. When Bastian realizes he is the child of whom they speak and accepts his role as savior, he reconstructs Fantasia from its last remaining grain of sand.

As far as movies go, The NeverEnding Story is a mediocre representative of the fantasy genre... I highly recommend it not for its entertainment value, but for its philosophical underpinnings (to what degree these are drawn from the book is something I would one day like to explore) and the conversations about humans and the power of their stories they elicit. The Childlike Empress explains to Atreyu that just as the earthling child has lived through everything with him, so too have others lived through things with him... this is a reference to us as movie watchers who have bonded with the character of Bastian just as he has bonded with the character Atreyu, arguably a projection of his own fantasy of being a hero rather than a victim of bullying. There are many fruitful avenues of discussion that can emerge from the film's presentation of storytelling...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[En Hakkore]

The technical aspect. This is pretty much overlooked as we want to view the end results. You can't have one without the other and it is pretty interesting how motion pictures were developed. There is some biology involved on the viewers part based on the optical phenomena known as persistence of vision and the phi phenomenon. (see article)

Thanks for the article... I have a couple of Sklar's books and it appears there is some debate on this phenomenon, a subject I have not explored in any detail. I will tuck this into the back of mind and do a bit of reading up on it over the course of this thread.

Were going to the movies! That's the best part... the entertainment value and how much fun it is. The popcorn, the candy, the soda and the good seat. It's an American tradition we love going to the movies. And the drive in, talk about a big screen! And no matter what your tastes are there's a movie for you, a whole list of movies actually.

Sadly, this experience of "going to the movies" was slowly being eroded with the advent of on-line streaming services (less so by the earlier home video phenomenon), a process that has accelerated exponentially in the past year because of a certain pandemic.

But before I get too far ahead of myself, my next post will be about the transition from vaudeville to silent films.

I look forward to learning from you about this transition as it is not something I've looked at before...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Redeemed]

Thanks for sharing these insights about relating to each other through the telling and retelling of stories, film being a continuation of that cross-generational process. The swapping of folk tales orally, literary compositions and movies do not, indeed, succeed each other as exclusive modes of communication, but are interwoven media. Novel-to-film adaptations are, in this light, an intriguing phenomenon. An example to kick things off, one very relevant to the topic of humans and their stories, is Michael Ende's Die unendliche Geschichte (1979), better known here in North America from its screen adaptation The NeverEnding Story (1984). While I have it in English translation on my bookshelf, I've never read it through start to finish... the general consensus from those that have is that the film is a poor adaptation of the first half of the book. Movies circulate independent of their source texts and the degree to which they are or should be subordinate to the earlier form is one of several issues debated in media adaptation studies. My engagement below is with the film version alone.

To briefly summarize the plot, a bullied boy named Bastian begins reading a book titled The NeverEnding Story and becomes engrossed in the quest of young Atreyu to save Fantasia and its ailing Childlike Empress from the Nothing that threatens to destroy their world. As the story in the book unfolds, ostensibly independent of Bastian reading it, Atreyu learns that only a human child beyond the boundaries of Fantasia can save it. In an encounter with a servant of the Nothing, the boy learns that Fantasia is the realm of human fantasies and boundless except when humans lose hope in their dreams, which feeds the Nothing that destroys it. Upon reaching the empress with the destruction of the last remaining fragments of Fantasia imminent, Atreyu confesses failure in his quest but she tells him that he has succeeded by bringing with him the earthling who is the one to save them all. When Bastian realizes he is the child of whom they speak and accepts his role as savior, he reconstructs Fantasia from its last remaining grain of sand.

As far as movies go, The NeverEnding Story is a mediocre representative of the fantasy genre... I highly recommend it not for its entertainment value, but for its philosophical underpinnings (to what degree these are drawn from the book is something I would one day like to explore) and the conversations about humans and the power of their stories they elicit. The Childlike Empress explains to Atreyu that just as the earthling child has lived through everything with him, so too have others lived through things with him... this is a reference to us as movie watchers who have bonded with the character of Bastian just as he has bonded with the character Atreyu, arguably a projection of his own fantasy of being a hero rather than a victim of bullying. There are many fruitful avenues of discussion that can emerge from the film's presentation of storytelling...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

It's funny that you should mention Novel-to-film adaptations as I thought about this quite a bit for years. I'm an avid reader and movies are limited by the script and the director, the actors, the cameraman and the location oh yeah and their funding.

Now a novel on the other hand is only limited by the author and your imagination. What I mean is when I read a book it can take me anyway in my mind I can see it happening. Just like my dad and uncles telling their stories. Whereas a movie is limited as far as what and how they can portray their subject matter. I would imagine filmmakers realize this and the screenplay is limited to what they can accomplish with the equipment and technology they have. Now days with animation and computer programs a lot of that limitation is gone.

Over the years of reading the novel then seeing the screen adaptation I've always felt a let down because I'm always looking for the film to be just like the novel (and how my mind adapted to that novel) and it very rarely happens.

Actually the only time I've ever observed this happening was a book entitled “Rosemary's Baby” made into a film directed by Roman Polanski. It was as close to being word by word scene by scene just like the book as I've ever witnessed. I was pretty shocked and it stayed with me all these years.

This is not to say that our minds don't play an active part in the movies we watch. For example the other day I was watching a film on Amazon prime in this scene a female sheriff was driving her patrol car and searching for someone walking around town. She was a really good actress and the camera was doing a close-up of her as she is looking around and her eyes are moving around searching and you could anticipate what she was looking for. It changed from looking at her face to imagining looking through her eyes trying to find what she was looking for. To me that was amazing that I can get that drawn in to that seen that I felt a part of it.

What I'm trying to say is sometimes the film can be so good it makes you forget all about the novel.

 

[Redeemed]

Thanks for the article... I have a couple of Sklar's books and it appears there is some debate on this phenomenon, a subject I have not explored in any detail. I will tuck this into the back of mind and do a bit of reading up on it over the course of this thread.


Sadly, this experience of "going to the movies" was slowly being eroded with the advent of on-line streaming services (less so by the earlier home video phenomenon), a process that has accelerated exponentially in the past year because of a certain pandemic.


I look forward to learning from you about this transition as it is not something I've looked at before...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

Vaudeville History Long video but the first 10 minutes is packed with information

The reason I bring up vaudeville in relation to film history is because it interests me to see where the first actors in the first films came from. The filmmakers obviously couldn't go to the screen actors Guild so I would imagine they would look for people that were experienced in performing in front of an audience. Then the filmmakers would transform them into performing in front of the camera. But the same skill set is used in both.

Now when we look at silent films we find the actors also were mimes (the art or technique of portraying a character, mood, idea, or narration by gestures and bodily movements; pantomime. an actor who specializes in this art. an ancient Greek or Roman farce that depended for effect largely upon ludicrous actions and gestures. verb (used with object), mimed, mim·ing.)

Charlie Chaplin is the best example I can think of. He was loved by millions. One of the interesting things that happened when the talkies were introduced was a lot of silent actors just couldn't make the transition to various reasons.

Ronald Colman was a big silent movie star. He had a beautiful speaking voice, so he enjoyed a very successful career in talking pictures. He then moved on to radio and TV in the 1950s.

Also the technical issues going from silent films to talkies was also a big hurdle. The technology that allowed speech to become an integral part of movies wasn't widely available, and the first talkies used methods that were ineffective and expensive. It took a while for the cinemas around the country to catch up with the advances and to have their facilities upgraded.

Here is a photo from our old church in downtown Victorville California. The building was an abandoned 1950s style movie theater. Obviously it's shut down now but I do have fond memories. We came into possession of it in the 90s. We called it" New Beginnings". I remember going out the door from the projection booth to wear that billboard is inputting Scriptures on it. All the plastic letters that were used to promote whatever film was being played at the time were still there and I used them. I don't recognize the little bit that's still up there now but I'm sure I put it there. Whatever was above that is gone. The building is kind of interesting as the floor slopes down toward the screen area.

 

[En Hakkore]

Long video but the first 10 minutes is packed with information

Thanks... I'll try to watch it in its entirety tomorrow morning and respond to both your posts thereafter.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[En Hakkore]

It's funny that you should mention Novel-to-film adaptations as I thought about this quite a bit for years. I'm an avid reader and movies are limited by the script and the director, the actors, the cameraman and the location oh yeah and their funding.

Now a novel on the other hand is only limited by the author and your imagination. What I mean is when I read a book it can take me anyway in my mind I can see it happening. Just like my dad and uncles telling their stories. Whereas a movie is limited as far as what and how they can portray their subject matter. I would imagine filmmakers realize this and the screenplay is limited to what they can accomplish with the equipment and technology they have. Now days with animation and computer programs a lot of that limitation is gone.

Over the years of reading the novel then seeing the screen adaptation I've always felt a let down because I'm always looking for the film to be just like the novel (and how my mind adapted to that novel) and it very rarely happens.

Actually the only time I've ever observed this happening was a book entitled “Rosemary's Baby” made into a film directed by Roman Polanski. It was as close to being word by word scene by scene just like the book as I've ever witnessed. I was pretty shocked and it stayed with me all these years.

I've not read Ira Levin's novel, though for some reason I think I have a copy of it kicking around somewhere. Rosemary's Baby is, of course, a classic movie though I've only watched it once... I'm more familiar with its influence on films that run with the idea of the Antichrist as the son of Satan, which to the best of my knowledge originated with this book/film in the late sixties.

What I'm trying to say is sometimes the film can be so good it makes you forget all about the novel.

Or perhaps even to not bother much with them at all, as in my case. For example, my interest in reading Ende's novel, if I get around to it, will be specific to researching the philosophical underpinnings of the movie adaptation. To be fair, I read more fiction prior to embarking on my academic life... these days I have no time for it unless it's directly related to something I'm researching. Reading a novel is more time-consuming than watching a ninety-minute or two-hour movie based on it so my preference is for the latter. I wonder if that describes most people these days...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[En Hakkore]

Long video but the first 10 minutes is packed with information

I watched the video in its entirety and it was very informative. Since my area of primary research around film is the depiction of children/childhood, I was pleased that there was a section, however brief, on children in vaudeville. Inevitably they flashed an image of Jackie Coogan, who became the first child movie star after playing opposite Charlie Chaplin in The Kid (1921) -- the boy had been spotted by Chaplin during a vaudeville performance. The overview in the documentary rightly acknowledged some of the negative aspects for the lives of children who performed, which forms of exploitation spilled over into the careers of young film stars --- Coogan's case is well known and the squandering of his earnings by his mother and stepfather initiated some of the early attempts at rectifying these problems. It is touched on briefly in the short tribute video below, uploaded by his grandson Keith Coogan (born Keith Mitchell) on the hundred-year anniversary of his grandfather's first appearance in vaudeville, here shared by sheer coincidence one hundred years after his aforementioned starring role!

The documentary identified the Nicholas Brothers (originally Nicholas Kids) as the greatest of the vaudeville kid acts and I am happy to have learned about this duo, even though it was difficult to hear of the discrimination they faced as African Americans and to see one of the brothers visibly shaken to be recounting this in the interview. I am sadly aware of similar experiences among the cast of the Our Gang shorts from my forays into film...

The reason I bring up vaudeville in relation to film history is because it interests me to see where the first actors in the first films came from. The filmmakers obviously couldn't go to the screen actors Guild so I would imagine they would look for people that were experienced in performing in front of an audience. Then the filmmakers would transform them into performing in front of the camera. But the same skill set is used in both.

Now when we look at silent films we find the actors also were mimes (the art or technique of portraying a character, mood, idea, or narration by gestures and bodily movements; pantomime. an actor who specializes in this art. an ancient Greek or Roman farce that depended for effect largely upon ludicrous actions and gestures. verb (used with object), mimed, mim·ing.)

Charlie Chaplin is the best example I can think of. He was loved by millions. One of the interesting things that happened when the talkies were introduced was a lot of silent actors just couldn't make the transition to various reasons.

Indeed, and interestingly enough I know of a film that used this phenomenon in its plot... a silent 'cowboy' actor unable to make the transition to 'talkies' pretends to still be a star so as not to disappoint his greatest fan, a sick boy who has run away from the hospital to visit him: It Happened in Hollywood (1937). The documentary also helped me make some connections I otherwise would not have made about films I've come across (though hopefully I would have discovered them anyway through pending research), for example learning that Buster Keaton -- himself a child vaudeville star -- included cross-dressing gags in his stage material sheds light on one of his early 'talkies' in which a gangster forces a boy to cross-dress and commit robberies and Keaton's own character in drag is later mistaken for this 'blonde bandit': Sidewalks of New York (1931).

Toward the end of the documentary, they explored some of the enduring legacies of vaudeville and the connection with the format and setting of The Muppet Show was an intriguing example they raised. Another interesting and contemporary example that comes to mind which postdated this documentary (made in the nineties) is America's Got Talent and its various spin-offs... combining current fads such as competitions and so-called 'reality TV' with the format and spectacular performances of vaudeville. Thanks again for sharing that link!

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Redeemed]

I watched the video in its entirety and it was very informative. Since my area of primary research around film is the depiction of children/childhood, I was pleased that there was a section, however brief, on children in vaudeville. Inevitably they flashed an image of Jackie Coogan, who became the first child movie star after playing opposite Charlie Chaplin in The Kid (1921) -- the boy had been spotted by Chaplin during a vaudeville performance. The overview in the documentary rightly acknowledged some of the negative aspects for the lives of children who performed, which forms of exploitation spilled over into the careers of young film stars --- Coogan's case is well known and the squandering of his earnings by his mother and stepfather initiated some of the early attempts at rectifying these problems. It is touched on briefly in the short tribute video below, uploaded by his grandson Keith Coogan (born Keith Mitchell) on the hundred-year anniversary of his grandfather's first appearance in vaudeville, here shared by sheer coincidence one hundred years after his aforementioned starring role!

The documentary identified the Nicholas Brothers (originally Nicholas Kids) as the greatest of the vaudeville kid acts and I am happy to have learned about this duo, even though it was difficult to hear of the discrimination they faced as African Americans and to see one of the brothers visibly shaken to be recounting this in the interview. I am sadly aware of similar experiences among the cast of the Our Gang shorts from my forays into film...


Indeed, and interestingly enough I know of a film that used this phenomenon in its plot... a silent 'cowboy' actor unable to make the transition to 'talkies' pretends to still be a star so as not to disappoint his greatest fan, a sick boy who has run away from the hospital to visit him: It Happened in Hollywood (1937). The documentary also helped me make some connections I otherwise would not have made about films I've come across (though hopefully I would have discovered them anyway through pending research), for example learning that Buster Keaton -- himself a child vaudeville star -- included cross-dressing gags in his stage material sheds light on one of his early 'talkies' in which a gangster forces a boy to cross-dress and commit robberies and Keaton's own character in drag is later mistaken for this 'blonde bandit': Sidewalks of New York (1931).

Toward the end of the documentary, they explored some of the enduring legacies of vaudeville and the connection with the format and setting of The Muppet Show was an intriguing example they raised. Another interesting and contemporary example that comes to mind which postdated this documentary (made in the nineties) is America's Got Talent and its various spin-offs... combining current fads such as competitions and so-called 'reality TV' with the format and spectacular performances of vaudeville. Thanks again for sharing that link!

Kind regards,
Jonathan

Well we are definitely on the same page as I agree totally with your post and the points you brought up are what led me to take a look at people involved in vaudeville. I've given this a lot of thought and really bothers me when people are used and abused by anyone and especially someone they trust. I realize there are good and bad people in every area and walk of life and I'm not trying to single out the film industry. But it's the one that gets most of our attention. Like the thing with Harvey Weinstein, and Bill Cosby and so on and so on. But I'm glad we got this area out in the open and can move on.

As I was watching the Video about Jackie Coogan a thought came to my mind. How film can lift us up from our mundane lives and inspire us to reach higher. How they can touch our emotions. There was one clip from the video from World War II and film played a big part in that. The Rosie the riveter thing. And Hitler's propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels both played a big part in shaping people's ideas and emotions and patriotism.

I told you we could talk about this for days because it's such a huge topic. I am quite interested in your area of expertise.

I'll share with you a little of my history pertaining to the film industry. I grew up in the San Fernando Valley mostly Glendale California just a few miles from the Hollywood sign. So any films they made that were close to the studios I recognize all the locations. My sister-in-law is retired actress and her husband Lloyd Haynes was a pretty well known actor and had his own TV show. She wrote a book about his life called the Lloyd Haynes story: a remarkable journey to startdom. My wife's uncle rented out all the equipment to the studios and deliver it to the locations and set it up. They were doing Michael Jackson's tour when he passed away.

You mentioned our gang-the little rascal's of course that was one of my favorites. And there's so many more. I like to make videos edit them and put them on you tube. At one time I had over 200 videos online mostly Christian music videos.

I have one I think you'd be interested in, I'm going to look around for. Check on my old hard drives.

I called it Show me your face Lord as that was the name of the song playing in the background but the video had still photos and short video clips of kids from all around the world different countries and ethnic background. The idea behind it was what does a person in say China visualize when they think of Jesus as to his appearance. I doubt they think of a Middle Eastern Jew because they probably never saw one. So I'm wondering in their minds eye do they think of Jesus as being Chinese. Anyway that's where I got the idea of show me your face Lord. And I had a lot of fun making it.

I love doing home movies also as a matter fact after talking about this stuff I got my video camera equipment off-the-shelf and all dusted off, batteries all charged and ready to go. I have some ideas of a few things I want to record.

You take care Jonathan looking forward to hearing from you. And I understand if you're too busy to post a reply right away.

 

[En Hakkore]

You take care Jonathan looking forward to hearing from you. And I understand if you're too busy to post a reply right away.

Thanks for your patience and understanding... as I do my daily rounds (constantly interrupted) of the threads I'm involved in, I typically save this one for last --- not because it is unimportant, but precisely because it is important and I want to give your engagements here the thoughtfulness they deserve.

Well we are definitely on the same page as I agree totally with your post and the points you brought up are what led me to take a look at people involved in vaudeville. I've given this a lot of thought and really bothers me when people are used and abused by anyone and especially someone they trust. I realize there are good and bad people in every area and walk of life and I'm not trying to single out the film industry. But it's the one that gets most of our attention. Like the thing with Harvey Weinstein, and Bill Cosby and so on and so on. But I'm glad we got this area out in the open and can move on.

As I was watching the Video about Jackie Coogan a thought came to my mind. How film can lift us up from our mundane lives and inspire us to reach higher. How they can touch our emotions.

Indeed, with respect to Jackie's jigs against the backdrop of his lively performances generally and early films taken as a whole, there was a comment made in the documentary you linked to that comes to mind. Paraphrasing here from memory it was about how frivolity reflects humanity's refusal to suffer... we push forward, often through heartbreaking circumstances, and films (or rather the stories therein to which we can relate) play a role in that, perhaps at times offering nothing more than a much-needed laugh to remind us that there is still goodness amidst the darkness that can engulf us.

There was one clip from the video from World War II and film played a big part in that. The Rosie the riveter thing. And Hitler's propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels both played a big part in shaping people's ideas and emotions and patriotism.

Film and World War II could be a huge thread all on its own... I will return to it below.

I'll share with you a little of my history pertaining to the film industry. I grew up in the San Fernando Valley mostly Glendale California just a few miles from the Hollywood sign. So any films they made that were close to the studios I recognize all the locations. My sister-in-law is retired actress and her husband Lloyd Haynes was a pretty well known actor and had his own TV show. She wrote a book about his life called the Lloyd Haynes story: a remarkable journey to startdom. My wife's uncle rented out all the equipment to the studios and deliver it to the locations and set it up. They were doing Michael Jackson's tour when he passed away.

Thanks for sharing... you 'grew up' (at some point we can get into why I put this is scare quotes) near ground zero, so to speak, of the American film industry. That's exciting!

You mentioned our gang-the little rascal's of course that was one of my favorites. And there's so many more. I like to make videos edit them and put them on you tube. At one time I had over 200 videos online mostly Christian music videos.

I have one I think you'd be interested in, I'm going to look around for. Check on my old hard drives.

I called it Show me your face Lord as that was the name of the song playing in the background but the video had still photos and short video clips of kids from all around the world different countries and ethnic background. The idea behind it was what does a person in say China visualize when they think of Jesus as to his appearance. I doubt they think of a Middle Eastern Jew because they probably never saw one. So I'm wondering in their minds eye do they think of Jesus as being Chinese. Anyway that's where I got the idea of show me your face Lord. And I had a lot of fun making it.

I love doing home movies also as a matter fact after talking about this stuff I got my video camera equipment off-the-shelf and all dusted off, batteries all charged and ready to go. I have some ideas of a few things I want to record.

I look forward to whatever of your video editing you can and are willing to share. I've been presenting on topics related to film at various conferences for seven years now... at the beginning I just inserted existing films clips into my PowerPoint presentations, but I eventually got into editing my own clips a couple of years back because I couldn't find exactly what I wanted to include.

I told you we could talk about this for days because it's such a huge topic. I am quite interested in your area of expertise.

World War II and the years immediately preceding and following it is one of the most (if not the most) explored historical periods in cinema... these films can be divided into those produced as the events were unfolding and those that were made decades later looking back on them. In both groupings, children often play key roles as characters whose perspective the audience is meant to adopt, to witness the horrors of the war through their eyes. Arguably one of the most effective in this regard was the 1962 Soviet film Ivanovo detstvo (Ivan's Childhood). It is in the surrealist tradition to convey something of the incomprehensibility of what happens to and around the young protagonist. The film's use of black and white and war-torn settings as framing techniques is exquisite, as is its use of Dutch angle shots in rendering a destabilizing atmosphere. Water is used effectively throughout as symbols of life and death. If you have not seen this film before, I highly recommend it...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Redeemed]

World War II and the years immediately preceding and following it is one of the most (if not the most) explored historical periods in cinema... these films can be divided into those produced as the events were unfolding and those that were made decades later looking back on them. In both groupings, children often play key roles as characters whose perspective the audience is meant to adopt, to witness the horrors of the war through their eyes. Arguably one of the most effective in this regard was the 1962 Soviet film Ivanovo detstvo (Ivan's Childhood). It is in the surrealist tradition to convey something of the incomprehensibility of what happens to and around the young protagonist. The film's use of black and white and war-torn settings as framing techniques is exquisite, as is its use of Dutch angle shots in rendering a destabilizing atmosphere. Water is used effectively throughout as symbols of life and death. If you have not seen this film before, I highly recommend it...

This is really starting to get interesting. Especially where we've narrowed our topic down to your area of expertise. I can totally relate as I had to navigate life after my own childhood tragedies. I'm definitely a survivor. So I'm relating to the movie. I rented it on Amazon and to be real honest with you I need to tell you that I rented it just to be polite and go along with our conversation here but I'm actually quite amazed by this film. The dream sequence at the very beginning was totally awesome. I have it on pause right now because I wanted to thank you for recommending it.

I had to look up Dutch angle shots as I've never heard that term before but I found it and I learned something. Yeah a destabilizing atmosphere... Been there done that! And have the scars to prove it.

I'm thoroughly enjoying this film and make sure I get the most out of it I can. Right now I'm focusing on what you mentioned about the water. That's where I paused, where I would imagine his mother and him are looking down well talking about day and night and start being visible.

I'll get out another reply after I have finished watching the film. You have a good and productive day Jonathan.

 

[En Hakkore]

This is really starting to get interesting. Especially where we've narrowed our topic down to your area of expertise. I can totally relate as I had to navigate life after my own childhood tragedies. I'm definitely a survivor. So I'm relating to the movie. I rented it on Amazon and to be real honest with you I need to tell you that I rented it just to be polite and go along with our conversation here but I'm actually quite amazed by this film. The dream sequence at the very beginning was totally awesome. I have it on pause right now because I wanted to thank you for recommending it.

You're welcome... and I'm glad your politeness led you to explore a movie you'd not seen before. I'll withhold further comment related to the film until you've finished watching it and posted your thoughts. Moving forward, I will try to use the words "highly recommend" sparingly so as not to tempt you into watching your retirement fund away! The filmography for my book is currently sitting at just over 4,500 titles. No, I've not been able to source all of them... but the number I do have access to on DVD, digital or online streaming is about 3,000 --- in other words I have a deep well to draw from in this thread and then some!

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Redeemed]

Sorry I'm taking so long to comment on this particular film. I've watched it twice and I'm pretty sure I get it thanks to your informing me of what the water meant. Like at the end of the movie where he's running through the water I took it to mean he was going forward with the rest of his life after the war.

I plan on watching it one more time today as I want to make sure I get my 2.95 bucks worth of my retirement funds. But seriously through a lot of important issues to think of in that movie. For instance at the end they showed Hitler's Bunker where he committed suicide and his top chiefs of staff lying dead on the pavement. The bad news is that particular nightmare may have been over but there's always another one coming right around the corner. I managed to survive the Vietnam War unfortunately our youngest son who by the way his nickname was "The Kid" didn't survive Second Persian Gulf War. So you can see why this film had a profound effect on me.

I find our discussion here quite interesting and I'm sure it's no accident. If you don't mind please tell me how you became interested in your field of expertise and where you plan on going with.

 

[En Hakkore]

Sorry I'm taking so long to comment on this particular film. I've watched it twice and I'm pretty sure I get it thanks to your informing me of what the water meant. Like at the end of the movie where he's running through the water I took it to mean he was going forward with the rest of his life after the war.

I plan on watching it one more time today as I want to make sure I get my 2.95 bucks worth of my retirement funds.

Yes, do get your money's worth! No worries and no rush... I'm curious if other possible understandings might emerge on your third viewing as it relates to the sentence I bolded above, particularly the very last frame and the symbolism of crossing bodies of water elsewhere in the film.

But seriously through a lot of important issues to think of in that movie. For instance at the end they showed Hitler's Bunker where he committed suicide and his top chiefs of staff lying dead on the pavement. The bad news is that particular nightmare may have been over but there's always another one coming right around the corner. I managed to survive the Vietnam War unfortunately our youngest son who by the way his nickname was "The Kid" didn't survive Second Persian Gulf War. So you can see why this film had a profound effect on me.

Yes, and I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your youngest son.

I find our discussion here quite interesting and I'm sure it's no accident. If you don't mind please tell me how you became interested in your field of expertise and where you plan on going with.

Sure, I can pinpoint exactly the genesis of my interest in this field of study, which then developed over the next couple of decades. When I was 14yo I watched the made-for-TV mini-series I Know My First Name Is Steven (1989), based on a real life child abduction and abuse case back in the seventies (the video below features clips from this two-part movie). In the years leading up to seeing it I'd gone through a lot that I won't get into on a public forum but because of which I identified strongly with Steven as I encountered him through this movie, 14yo when he escaped his kidnapper. While there is some warranted focus on the depravity of his abductor, I was struck then -- though I couldn't articulate it so well as I can now -- at wider structural problems in society that contributed to his experience and child abuses generally. Over the next decade my thinking on this developed informally against the backdrop of children's rights, then formally in the 2000s through reading academic literature on the subject. The past ten years have been devoted to pulling together that research and the power of cinematic images into concrete projects such as various papers presented at conferences, my thesis and the book I'm currently working on, all of which fall under the general framework of rights-based activism on behalf of children.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Redeemed]

Sure, I can pinpoint exactly the genesis of my interest in this field of study, which then developed over the next couple of decades. When I was 14yo I watched the made-for-TV mini-series I Know My First Name Is Steven (1989), based on a real life child abduction and abuse case back in the seventies (the video below features clips from this two-part movie). In the years leading up to seeing it I'd gone through a lot that I won't get into on a public forum but because of which I identified strongly with Steven as I encountered him through this movie, 14yo when he escaped his kidnapper. While there is some warranted focus on the depravity of his abductor, I was struck then -- though I couldn't articulate it so well as I can now -- at wider structural problems in society that contributed to his experience and child abuses generally. Over the next decade my thinking on this developed informally against the backdrop of children's rights, then formally in the 2000s through reading academic literature on the subject. The past ten years have been devoted to pulling together that research and the power of cinematic images into concrete projects such as various papers presented at conferences, my thesis and the book I'm currently working on, all of which fall under the general framework of rights-based activism on behalf of children.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

I can totally relate. The traumatic childhood experience I went through just about devastated my whole life. The good news is that we are Over Comers. And taking the tragedies we endure in life... Using the experience to help someone else is where it's at. The way I look at it is if I only help one person then I've fulfilled God's purpose for my life. I have a tremendous amount of respect for what you're doing and what you are accomplishing.

I work with a organization called the pregnancy resource Center. I raised donations to help them help pregnant mothers. The goal is to try to make things better for the babies when they are born. To me this is the best possible thing that I could be involved in.

You mentioned depravity of Stevens abductor and this is an area I have thoroughly studied out. My wife watches Hallmark movies, and her favorites are Christmas movies. While I'm into Real crime drama. It absolutely amazes me How many sick and twisted up people there are out there. The best part of the films to me is when the perpetrators are in court being sentenced. I realize that doesn't help their victims but hopefully bein Incarceration Will keep them from destroying someone's life for a while.

Take a look at the video clip now I definitely remember watching the series. What's really good about putting stuff like that out there like what you're doing is that it makes people aware of what's really going on. Then people that could help do something about it could become involved and we can all work for a change to happen.

You have a blessed day Jonathan, and keep up the good work!

 

[Redeemed]

I forgot to address your question about crossing the bodies of water. During the film crossing the river seem to be a big issue. I know during war World War II that was also a big issue. To get your army across that body of water to continue the fight. I did think about it each time I watched the and never came to no real conclusion. But to try to answer your question I think the crossing the river could be going back to the time in his life when everything was all good. Before the war and before the death of his mother. Back riding on the butterfly without a care in the world.

When I wrote my last post and realized the enormity of the subject at hand I had to go interrupt my wife and her Hallmark movies to talk things over with her. She amazed me by telling me she's involved with a woman's ministry group that helps victims of trafficking. Which is a big issue in our area since were so close to the border. I told her about how I was feeling after talking about this issue of child exploitation, the enormity of it and how I was starting to get bummed out and needed some wife comfort. She's pretty amazing and knew exactly where I was coming from.

She knew all about "I know my first name is Stephen". And we were able to have a helpful discussion. Then I made her pancakes for breakfast. We do daily devotions together in the early morning. I pray us in then we put on the whole armor of God and pray the Lord's prayer together then we each read out loud from a daily devotional book. Once from Joyce Meyer and one is from Dr. David Jeremiah. Then she prays us out. The reason I'm telling you this is because from now on when I pray in I'm definitely going to pray for protection for young and innocent children. Also pray that God will make predators stop. "Hey... Leave those kids alone" or there will be consequences.

 

[En Hakkore]

I can totally relate. The traumatic childhood experience I went through just about devastated my whole life. The good news is that we are Over Comers. And taking the tragedies we endure in life... Using the experience to help someone else is where it's at. The way I look at it is if I only help one person then I've fulfilled God's purpose for my life. I have a tremendous amount of respect for what you're doing and what you are accomplishing.

Thanks. In many ways we've come full circle to the dialogue on your "wild" apologetics thread with a better understanding of where each of us is coming from. For example here after we began talking about Joseph as the character to whom I related most in the Hebrew Bible:

In terms of the positive (with which you wanted to start), they were "liberation, justice, forgiveness, care for the poor and downtrodden, maintaining hope through pain and suffering, etc." I've touched on a couple of these as they relate to my situation, though I deliberately passed over hope since I have largely abandoned it, at least tangibly in this life for me and I'm not altogether certain there is anything to follow. To bring Luke and his portrait of Jesus back into the discussion, as well as broaden the scope to the plight of others and about which I might be able to do something and offer hope, touches on many of the remaining themes...

The who and the what of the part I bolded were elucidated in my last post of this thread. I look forward to the next step of our journey here...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Redeemed]

Thanks. In many ways we've come full circle to the dialogue on your "wild" apologetics thread with a better understanding of where each of us is coming from. For example here after we began talking about Joseph as the character to whom I related most in the Hebrew Bible:

In terms of the positive (with which you wanted to start), they were "liberation, justice, forgiveness, care for the poor and downtrodden, maintaining hope through pain and suffering, etc." I've touched on a couple of these as they relate to my situation, though I deliberately passed over hope since I have largely abandoned it, at least tangibly in this life for me and I'm not altogether certain there is anything to follow. To bring Luke and his portrait of Jesus back into the discussion, as well as broaden the scope to the plight of others and about which I might be able to do something and offer hope, touches on many of the remaining themes...

The who and the what of the part I bolded were elucidated in my last post of this thread. I look forward to the next step of our journey here...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

Yes kind of amazing, I call it being real. I picked up on what you said about abandoning hope when you first posted it. That definitely intrigued me but I figured it was too soon in our dialogue to be asking questions of that nature. It's always a good idea to gain some trust with someone before getting to real.

The thing about the Bible is that it does offer. No matter how bad things get here on earth we have a hope.

 

[En Hakkore]

I forgot to address your question about crossing the bodies of water. During the film crossing the river seem to be a big issue. I know during war World War II that was also a big issue. To get your army across that body of water to continue the fight. I did think about it each time I watched the and never came to no real conclusion. But to try to answer your question I think the crossing the river could be going back to the time in his life when everything was all good. Before the war and before the death of his mother. Back riding on the butterfly without a care in the world.

Okay, let's explore this. With the exception of the four "dream" sequences, the visionary flash-back of the partisans waiting for their execution and the flash-forward to the end of the war in the climax, the film takes place over the course of about twenty-four hours that are bracketed by Ivan crossing the river... from the German to the Russian side and then back again. The film itself begins and ends with a "dream" sequence, the other two occur when Ivan falls asleep after his first crossing and immediately before he wakes up to make the second one, in both transitions there is water dripping eerily. Each of the sequences includes some life-sustaining examples of water... in the buckets and the well as drink, the rains for crops and the waters of the beach for leisure, but each of the sequences also contains foreboding elements and musical cues with abrupt transitions into the harsh reality of the war (this holds true for the final sequence as I hinted at in my previous post).

While water is undoubtedly the most prominent symbol deployed in the film, there are other recurring features such as the dead tree from which the two Russian scouts have been hanged as a warning... important is its presence in the final "dream" sequence, intruding on the children's play. The final frame of the movie is the abrupt cut to black as Ivan runs with reckless abandon and unexpectedly slams into it. There are other things repeated in the film such as the record playing the song lyric in which Masha is told not to go beyond the river. This is the name, not coincidentally, of the lady army doctor who is sent away from the front line and complies with the order... Ivan is also ordered away to the safety of military school, but he refuses --- the boy instead crosses the river to the German side. Three times the "writing on the wall" is shown, etchings of the partisans shortly before their execution crying out for their deaths to be avenged. Ivan, we are told through conversation among the army officers, had joined the partisans after his mother and sister (the girl in the third and fourth "dream" sequences) were killed by the Germans. The boy, having a visionary encounter with the partisans, takes up their cause and that of his murdered family, acting out his "play" fantasies with the knife he has been loaned for the night.

After Ivan departs from the two officers who have accompanied him across to the German side of the river, one of them remarks that he wished it was raining so the boy's footprints in the clay would be obscured... instead it begins only to lightly snow, signaling both the beginning of winter and the likelihood Ivan will be tracked by the Nazis who are patrolling the swamp area. The coming of winter, falling asleep and crossing rivers are all ancient metaphors for death... and if you still have access to the online rental, I would recommend watching the flash-forward to the end of the war as it explicitly but briefly reveals Ivan's fate after he crosses back to the German side of the river. I wasn't sure, on reading your earlier comments about Ivan "going forward with his life after the war", whether you caught the significance of the dossier the Russian officer picks up in the ruins of Berlin...

Kind regards,
Jonathan