How 'bout dis?

Theo1689

Well-known member
Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

No faith = no access into grace.

Sadly, you omitted the word "this" from the verse.
"This grace" means that there are different kinds of grace. It doesn't mean that ALL grace is dependent on prior faith.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Sadly, you omitted the word "this" from the verse.
"This grace" means that there are different kinds of grace. It doesn't mean that ALL grace is dependent on prior faith.
Yes. Romans 5:1 suggests the Grace we access is Peace with God...
 

Gomer

Active member
Would you at least acknowledge that Saint Paul places Grace before Works because he says 'not by Works'?

You said Obedience and Works of Merit aren't the same thing, so why not also acknowledge that Grace comes before Works?
not by works" refers to works of merit and not obedience. Faith itself is obedience that includes repentance Rom 2:4-5; confession Rom 10:9-10 and baptism Rom 6:3-5.
 

Gomer

Active member
Sadly, you omitted the word "this" from the verse.
"This grace" means that there are different kinds of grace. It doesn't mean that ALL grace is dependent on prior faith.
Grace here refers to being in favor with God and this grace was CONDITIONALLY accessed "through Christ" and "by faith" which means the faithless have no access to being in favor with God.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
not by works" refers to works of merit and not obedience. Faith itself is obedience that includes repentance Rom 2:4-5; confession Rom 10:9-10 and baptism Rom 6:3-5.
Gomer, obedience to what? Nineveh Repented; this means they turned from not obeying the Law of God to obeying the Law of God. That's Works buddy...
 

Gomer

Active member
Gomer, obedience to what? Nineveh Repented; this means they turned from not obeying the Law of God to obeying the Law of God. That's Works buddy...
Obedience to God's will. Nineveh obeyed God's will by repenting THEN received mercy as men today under the NT must obey God's will by believing Jn 8:27 repenting of sins Lk 13:3; confession Mt 10:32-33 and be baptized Mk 16:16 then one has access to God's grace.
--God's grace is not unconditional, but one must meet the condition of obeying God to receive grace
--obedience is not works of merit. There is not an example anywhere in the Bible of one obeying God and then receiving God's free gift where that obedience is said to have been a work of merit. Nineveh repenting in sackcloth was obedience not a work of merit. Those who repented and were baptized Acts 2 were obedient then received the free gift of remission of sins and obeying was not a work of merit. Naaman dipping 7 times in the Jordan river was obedience whereby he then received God's free gift of healing. His obedience was not a work of merit whereby God then OWED it to him to heal his disease.

Lk 17:7-10 gives a lesson about obedience. Even though the servant was obeying the Master by working in the Master's fields that obedient work did not merit him a place at the dinner table, but instead the Master told the servant to make my supper. Even after the servant has done all commanded him he is still unprofitable. Hence obedience earns nothing.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Obedience to God's will. Nineveh obeyed God's will by repenting THEN received mercy as men today under the NT must obey God's will be believing Jn 8:27 repenting of sins Lk 13:3; confession Mt 10:32-33 and be baptized Mk 16:16 then one has access to God's grace.
--God's grace is not unconditional, but one must meet the condition of obeying God to receive grace
--obedience is not works of merit. There is not an example anywhere in the Bible of one obeying God and then receiving God's free gift where that obedience is said to have been a work of merit. Nineveh repenting in sackcloth was obedience not a work of merit. Those who repented and were baptized Acts 2 was obedience to receive the free gift of remission of sins and not a work of merit. Naaman dipping 7 times in the Jordan river was obedience whereby he then received God's free gift of healing. His obedience was not a work of merit whereby God then OWED it to him to heal his disease.

Lk 17:7-10 gives a lesson about obedience. Even though the servant was obeying the Master by working in the Master's fields that obedient work did not merit him a place at the dinner table, but instead the Master told the servant to make my supper. Even after the servant has done all commanded him he is still unprofitable. Hence obedience earns nothing.
My point is that obedience to the Will of God is obedience to his Law; you cant obey his Will without obeying his Law. The Command to receive Jesus is the First of the Ten Commandments. Any example you can give me of obeying God, can be shown to obey his Law...
 

Gomer

Active member
My point is that obedience to the Will of God is obedience to his Law; you cant obey his Will without obeying his Law. The Command to receive Jesus is the First of the Ten Commandments. Any example you can give me of obeying God, can be shown to obey his Law...
God does not require men today to obey the OT law of Moses but obey Christ's NT law that requires belief, repentance, confession and baptism.

Obedience is always necessary, OT and NT alike, in order for one to receive grace. Not a case of the disobedient receiving grace.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
God does not require men today to obey the OT law of Moses but obey Christ's NT law that requires belief, repentance, confession and baptism.

Obedience is always necessary, OT and NT alike, in order for one to receive grace. Not a case of the disobedient receiving grace.
God requires the Jews of today to Keep the Mosaic Covenant, and God requires All Lost Men to Keep the Edenic Covenant today. Fallen Man is required to Obey the Law of God; the Church is not required to obey the Law of Moses, but instead obey the Royal Law of Christ. Adam was required to obey God, right? How? Not by naming the animals, but by not eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; breaking off a piece of that fruit breaks the Law. Nineveh Repented; this means they turned from breaking the Law of God to obeying the Law of God. Obeying the Law is a Works Righteousness...

Tell me, how do you obey God? Obeying Christ Keeps his Law...
 
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Carbon

Well-known member
God is both fair and just. There is nothing fair and just in commanding men to believe but then not give man belief if the only way man could believe is by God giving man belief.

People are not inanimate and the clay represents people.
Why don’t you re read what Theo posted?
I don’t believe you understood a word of it.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Sadly, you omitted the word "this" from the verse.
"This grace" means that there are different kinds of grace. It doesn't mean that ALL grace is dependent on prior faith.
That is true

It is also true that without faith there is no access to this grace

So it seems how one responds to previous grace determines whether one receives this grace
 

Gomer

Active member
God requires the Jews of today to Keep the Mosaic Covenant, and God requires All Lost Men to Keep the Edenic Covenant today. Fallen Man is required to Obey the Law of God; the Church is not required to obey the Law of Moses, but instead obey the Royal Law of Christ. Adam was required to obey God, right? How? Not by naming the animals, but by not eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; breaking off a piece of that fruit breaks the Law. Nineveh Repented; this means they turned from breaking the Law of God to obeying the Law of God. Obeying the Law is a Works Righteousness...

Tell me, how do you obey God? Obeying Christ Keeps his Law...
Christ took the OT law out of the way replacing it with His NT (Eph 2:14). The OT was a wall of partition separating the Jews and Gentiles and by taking it away Jews and Gentiles are now one in Christ.....reconciles both in one body.

In Galatia, Judaizing teachers led Christian away from the NT back to the OT and Paul condemned those Galatians showing the OT cannot justify. Therefore for anyone to be saved, he must be saved through Christ and His NT gospel....no salvation apart from Christ.

Christian are to obey Christ's NT by worshiping as Christ has dictated by living life as Christ said in loving they neighbor, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, help the widows and orphans.........doing good works (Matt 25:35ff)..live faithful unto death (Rev 2:10).

Salvation is totally impossible apart from obedience and obedience and works of merit are not the same thing.
 

Gomer

Active member
Why don’t you re read what Theo posted?
I don’t believe you understood a word of it.
I read it. It does not make any logical sense.

If the only way a man can have faith is by God giving it to him, then is unjust and unfair in every sense of the words for God to command men to believe when man cannot possibly do so or even have faith when God will not give it to him and then condemn man for being faithless.

Exodus 5 gives the traits of an evil king called Pharaoh who took from the Israelites slaves what they needed to make bricks and yet required they increase the number they made. God commands men to believe yet will not give men belief would make God no different than Pharaoh
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
Christ took the OT law out of the way replacing it with His NT (Eph 2:14). The OT was a wall of partition separating the Jews and Gentiles and by taking it away Jews and Gentiles are now one in Christ.....reconciles both in one body.

In Galatia, Judaizing teachers led Christian away from the NT back to the OT and Paul condemned those Galatians showing the OT cannot justify. Therefore for anyone to be saved, he must be saved through Christ and His NT gospel....no salvation apart from Christ.

Christian are to obey Christ's NT by worshiping as Christ has dictated by living life as Christ said in loving they neighbor, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, help the widows and orphans.........doing good works (Matt 25:35ff)..live faithful unto death (Rev 2:10).

Salvation is totally impossible apart from obedience and obedience and works of merit are not the same thing.
Obedience and Merit are the same thing. The Parable of the Talents show this...
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I read it. It does not make any logical sense.

If the only way a man can have faith is by God giving it to him, then is unjust and unfair in every sense of the words for God to command men to believe when man cannot possibly do so or even have faith when God will not give it to him and then condemn man for being faithless.

Exodus 5 gives the traits of an evil king called Pharaoh who took from the Israelites slaves what they needed to make bricks and yet required they increase the number they made. God commands men to believe yet will not give men belief would make God no different than Pharaoh
If you understood it would make sense. I’ll let Rev help you out. To much going on at once
 

Gomer

Active member
Show me one example from the Bible where ones obedience is called a work of merit whereby one's obedience earned God's free gift.

Was Naaman's obedience a work of merit whereby God OWED him a miraculous healing? No
Was Noah's obedience in building the ark a work of merit whereby God OWED him salvation from the flood? No

Their obedience was a necessary condition God placed upon receiving His free gracious gift. Making obedience a work of merit would removed grace from these two examples.
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
Show me one example from the Bible where ones obedience is called a work of merit whereby one's obedience earned God's free gift.

Was Naaman's obedience a work of merit whereby God OWED him a miraculous healing? No
Was Noah's obedience in building the ark a work of merit whereby God OWED him salvation from the flood? No

Their obedience was a necessary condition God placed upon receiving His free gracious gift. Making obedience a work of merit would removed grace from these two examples.
Romans 5:19 NIV; For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Adam disobeyed God by breaking the Law; Christ obeyed God by Keeping the Law. You could say obedience or disobedience were to God here, and you can say obedience or disobedience were to the Law of God here. Their obediance or disobedience were to both. The Corollary between Adam's disobedience and Christ's obedience is that without the Law of God, neither obedience or disobedience could occur...
 
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Gomer

Active member
Romans 5:19 NIV; For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Adam disobeyed God by breaking the Law; Christ obeyed God by Keeping the Law. You could say obedience or disobedience were to God here, and you can say obedience or disobedience were to the Law of God here. Their obediance or disobedience were to both. The Corollary between Adam's disobedience and Christ's obedience is that without the Law of God, neither obedience or disobedience could occur...
Rom 4:15 Paul says where there is no law there is no transgression. But I miss your point. Earlier you claimed obedience and works of merit are the same, post #221. I do not see anything in Rom 5:19 that equates obedience to works of merit.
 
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