How 'bout dis?

Howie

Well-known member
If an employer requires an employee to move a ton load but does not give the employee what is needed to move the load and then fires the employee for not moving the load is that fair and just in any sense of the words???
He gave man what he needed, but man is sinful (Ecc 7:29).
If man can only have faith if it's given to him by God, how then can it be fair and just for God to command men to believe (as in Acts 16:31) but then not give one belief? God is causing men to sin against the command for man to have faith.
One doesn't want fairness from God. God being fair condemns one to eternal punishment.

What one wants from God is mercy.

FYI, God owes no one salvation (Ex 33:19; Rom 9:15).
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Rom 4:15 Paul says where there is no law there is no transgression. But I miss your point. Earlier you claimed obedience and works of merit are the same, post #221. I do not see anything in Rom 5:19 that equates obedience to works of merit.
In Romans 5:19 we see that both obedience and disobedience are to the Law of God. Go jump a fence and you will disobey the No Trespassing sign and disobey the owner of the Fence. You cannot obey God without obeying a Command...

Cause and Effect, Prime Mover stuff. How do you Obey God without something to obey?
 
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Gomer

Active member
He gave man what he needed, but man is sinful (Ecc 7:29).
The argument made is man only can have faith if God gives it to him. That means for the faithless God did not give them the faith God requires for man to be saved. Thus God did not give the faithless what they needed to be saved.
One doesn't want fairness from God. God being fair condemns one to eternal punishment.
I would not want justice from God for I would be lost, but I would want mercy and fairness (no respect of persons). Who wants to be treated wrongly by God?
What one wants from God is mercy.
Yes. In one sense if God were "fair" all would be lost in God dealing out His judgment and justice. Yet I am dealing with the word "fair" in the sense of being just, unbiased in having no respect of persons and treating no person wrongly. Again if man can only have faith if God gives it to him, yet God commands man to have faith yet will not give it, then that is unfair, unjust and wrong in every sense of the words. Again, who wants to be treated wrongly by God?
FYI, God owes no one salvation (Ex 33:19; Rom 9:15).
I agree. But fairness, justness is part of God's nature and nothing is just, fair about commanding man to believe whereby giving man an impossible command to obey and forcing man to disobey by not giving man the belief God commands/requires of man.

God only does what is good and right (Gen 18:25) and being unfair, being unjust, treating people wrongly is not part of God's nature.

"Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?" Eze 18:25. There is no unrighteousness with God, Rom 9.

If you had to go to court and be tried over an issue do you want an unfair, biased, rigged court against you where you are certain to lose? No you wouldn't but that is what Calvinism creates.
 
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Gomer

Active member
In Romans 5:19 we see that both obedience and disobedience are to the Law of God. Go jump a fence and you will disobey the No Trespassing sign and disobey the owner of the Fence. You cannot obey God without obeying a Command...

Cause and Effect, Prime Mover stuff. How do you Obey God without something to obey?
I agree men must obey God's will, His NT law. My point is obedience is not a work of merit, therefore "not of works" of Eph 2:9 of "worketh not" of Rom 4:5 do not eliminate obedience but eliminates works of the OT law and works of merit. Obviously all works are not alike while some works cannot save yet other works as obedience can save.
 

Howie

Well-known member
The argument made is man only can have faith if God gives it to him. That means for the faithless God did not give them the faith God requires for man to be saved. Thus God did not give the faithless what they needed to be saved.

I would not want justice from God for I would be lost, but I would want mercy and fairness (no respect of persons). Who wants to be treated wrongly by God?

Yes. In one sense if God were "fair" all would be lost in God dealing out His judgment and justice. Yet I am dealing with the word "fair" in the sense of being just, unbiased in having no respect of persons and treating no person wrongly. Again if man can only have faith if God gives it to him, yet God commands man to have faith yet will not give it, then that is unfair, unjust and wrong in every sense of the words. Again, who wants to be treated wrongly by God?

I agree. But fairness, justness is part of God's nature and nothing is just, fair about commanding man to believe whereby giving man an impossible command to obey and forcing man to disobey by not giving man the belief God commands/requires of man.

God only does what is good and right (Gen 18:25) and being unfair, being unjust, treating people wrongly is not part of God's nature.

"Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?" Eze 18:25. There is no unrighteousness with God, Rom 9.

If you had to go to court and be tried over an issue do you want an unfair, biased, rigged court against you where you are certain to lose? No you wouldn't but that is what Calvinism creates.
You won't hear, Gomer. So be it.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Rom 4:15 Paul says where there is no law there is no transgression.

That's becuase there is a difference between "sin" and "transgression".

Rom. 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

We need the Law, because without the Law there is no basis for legally condemning sin.

But I miss your point.

Then maybe you should lose the attitude?

Earlier you claimed obedience and works of merit are the same, post #221. I do not see anything in Rom 5:19 that equates obedience to works of merit.

Obedience is something you DO.
Works are something you DO.

YOU are the one who is making the distinction without a difference.
What is your BIBLICAL support for your worthless claim that they are different?
 

Gomer

Active member
That's becuase there is a difference between "sin" and "transgression".

Rom. 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

We need the Law, because without the Law there is no basis for legally condemning sin.



Then maybe you should lose the attitude?



Obedience is something you DO.
Works are something you DO.

YOU are the one who is making the distinction without a difference.
What is your BIBLICAL support for your worthless claim that they are different?
You failed to prove that obedience and works of merit are the same thing. Show one example from the Bible where a person's obedience resulted in receiving God's free gift was called a work of merit.

You cannot put God in 100% control of which men will or will not have faith and then justly, rightly find fault and blame on those that are faithless. That is an illogical mess Calvinists can roll in all they care to. Jesus should have blamed God for the insufficient faith of those disciples Mt 8:26
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You failed to prove that obedience and works of merit are the same thing.

You have failed to prove that they are different.

You cannot put God in 100% control of which men will or will not have faith and then justly,

I cannot let God be God?!

rightly find fault and blame on those that are faithless.

Of course I can.

That is an illogical mess Calvinists can roll in all they care to.

Wrong.
A sinner ASSUMES that it is "illogical".
I accept the teachings of SCRIPTURE, rather than the worthless and unreliable "rationalization" of man, like you do.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I agree men must obey God's will, His NT law. My point is obedience is not a work of merit, therefore "not of works" of Eph 2:9 of "worketh not" of Rom 4:5 do not eliminate obedience but eliminates works of the OT law and works of merit. Obviously all works are not alike while some works cannot save yet other works as obedience can save.
We're close...

Before Man is to obey the Law of Christ, they are either to obey the Law of Moses and/or the Law of Eden. No one is given the chance to obey the Law of Christ until they are in Christ Jesus...
 

Gomer

Active member
We're close...

Before Man is to obey the Law of Christ, they are either to obey the Law of Moses and/or the Law of Eden. No one is given the chance to obey the Law of Christ until they are in Christ Jesus...
Not close at all. No one today is to obey the Law of Moses for Christ took it out of the way nailing it to His cross. Men today are to obey the NT gospel which is God's power to save Rom 1:16. It is impossible to be in Christ apart from obedience. It takes obedience in submitting to baptism to be in Christ and put on Christ Gal 3:27.
 

Gomer

Active member
You have failed to prove that they are different.



I cannot let God be God?!



Of course I can.



Wrong.
A sinner ASSUMES that it is "illogical".
I accept the teachings of SCRIPTURE, rather than the worthless and unreliable "rationalization" of man, like you do.
Differences:

Works of merit are done to earn/merit God's free gift while obedience does not, cannot earn God's free gift.

Works of merit cannot save while obedience does save.

There is a night and day difference between the two.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Differences:

Works of merit are done to earn/merit God's free gift while obedience does not, cannot earn God's free gift.

Works of merit cannot save while obedience does save.

There is a night and day difference between the two.
Do you enjoy working for your salvation? You do realize you’ll never earn it, right? You couldn’t possibly be obedient enough. 😉
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Not close at all. No one today is to obey the Law of Moses for Christ took it out of the way nailing it to His cross. Men today are to obey the NT gospel which is God's power to save Rom 1:16. It is impossible to be in Christ apart from obedience. It takes obedience in submitting to baptism to be in Christ and put on Christ Gal 3:27.
Well I guess we're not that close after all. The Jews have Covenanted with God to Keep the Mosaic Law, so they are required to Keep it still today. When Gentiles do the Law, they show that the Law is written on their hearts; either accusing or excusing them. The Accusations of the Law never pass away until it is fulfilled. Jesus didn't rid the world of the Law of God by Keeping it. He and his Saints are rid of it, but the world still has the Law written on their hearts...

Right?

Grace Prevenes Faith in Christ. Without the prevening Grace of God, no one does Good; no, not one. They have altogether become disobedient to The Law; and disobedient to God...
 
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Slyzr

Well-known member
Well I guess we're not that close after all. The Jews have Covenanted with God to Keep the Mosaic Law, so they are required to Keep it still today. When Gentiles do the Law, they show that the Law is written on their hearts; either accusing or excusing them. The Accusations of the Law never pass away until it is fulfilled. Jesus didn't rid the world of the Law of God by Keeping it. He and his Saints are rid of it, but the world still has the Law written on their hearts...

Right?

Grace Prevenes Faith in Christ. Without prevening Grace, no one does Good; no, not one...

Not sure about that.

That is alot of theology.
 
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Gomer

Active member
Do you enjoy working for your salvation? You do realize you’ll never earn it, right? You couldn’t possibly be obedient enough. 😉
I was happy to obey the gospel of Christ, 2 Thess 1:8.

Paul did NOT say WORK FOR your salvation but WORK OUT your salvation. Salvation is a free gift that cannot be earned thus obedience in working out your salvation does not, cannot earn salvation. Obedience and works of merit are two different things.

No one's obedience will be enough where one will be perfectly sinless but Jesus said to STRIVE to enter the strait gate. Though one's obedience will not be perfect one must still strive to enter heaven and grace covers the shortcomings.
 

Gomer

Active member
Well I guess we're not that close after all. The Jews have Covenanted with God to Keep the Mosaic Law, so they are required to Keep it still today. When Gentiles do the Law, they show that the Law is written on their hearts; either accusing or excusing them. The Accusations of the Law never pass away until it is fulfilled. Jesus didn't rid the world of the Law of God by Keeping it. He and his Saints are rid of it, but the world still has the Law written on their hearts...

Right?

Grace Prevenes Faith in Christ. Without the prevening Grace of God, no one does Good; no, not one. They have altogether become disobedient to The Law; and disobedient to God...
I don't agree with you on any of what you posted here.
 
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