How can Christians reaise Children to endorse Christianity?

[Janice Bower]

Is it possible or has God determined that it will or will not happen? Why is there no advice from the pulpit?

Non-7th Day Adventist answers please.

 

[Thistle]

Is it possible or has God determined that it will or will not happen? Why is there no advice from the pulpit?

Non-7th Day Adventist answers please.

God bless you for your heart for your children. There is a time in youth for many when life seems to be giving them many things, and God becomes more distant to them. It's during times like those that we should rely on promises like this one.

"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it." - Proverbs 22:6 ESV​

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But regardless of the circumstances prayer works.

 

[Janice Bower]

Which parents know how to "Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it?" Do "anti" outside influences affect our children? Do all parents know how to train children?

"Prayer works" means what? Does God determine our answers to prayer? I was a Mormon for several years; in Mormonism blessings depend on your obedience to Mormon laws. Their god doesn't have a choice. His blessings depend on which laws you kept.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him since He always lives to make intercession for them.

I'm disappointed that I've never heard a sermon on how to raise children. Are pastors afraid of driving parents away?

My often single mother taught none of her six children to pray. She was a deist. My father claimed to be an atheist.

If someone is a Calvinist can he change God's choices? If someone is Arminian can God make sure all their children become Christians? If he is Catholic or Eastern Orthodox what happens?

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm trying to understand.

 

[Thistle]

Which parents know how to "Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it?" Do "anti" outside influences affect our children? Do all parents know how to train children?

"Prayer works" means what? Does God determine our answers to prayer? I was a Mormon for several years; in Mormonism blessings depend on your obedience to Mormon laws. Their god doesn't have a choice. His blessings depend on which laws you kept.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him since He always lives to make intercession for them.

I'm disappointed that I've never heard a sermon on how to raise children. Are pastors afraid of driving parents away?

My often single mother taught none of her six children to pray. She was a deist. My father claimed to be an atheist.

If someone is a Calvinist can he change God's choices? If someone is Arminian can God make sure all their children become Christians? If he is Catholic or Eastern Orthodox what happens?

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm trying to understand.

I don't mean to be misunderstood when I say the prayer works. Prayer works in so much as prayer always reaches the ears of God. We don't change God by changing how we understand him. God is immutable, That means he doesn't change. That should not be taken to mean that God doesn't change his mind in response to our prayers.

How do we understand that though, if God has exhaustive foreknowledge, and already knows about the prayers that we're going to pray? These matters can hardly be discussed without determining which perspective on God makes the best sense of what God has said about himself in the Bible. I believe that the Bible describes God in a way that can only be consistently understood from an Arminian perspective.

So, while it may be true that God knows what we're gonna pray before we pray it, he doesn't determine what we're going to pray. We can't consistently pray for something that we know God has a prior commitment to not answer. Therefore we can't pray consistently that God would slap the golden handcuffs on our children and drag them to heaven kicking and screaming.

We can however pray that God would use the things that we have tried to teach them to soften their hearts and incline their ears to God's great salvation. We can consistently pray that God would use us and grant us opportunities to further be used in the lives of our children to bring about their salvation in concert with their free will choice.

In other words we simply need to pray in a way that is consistent with what we already know to be true about God. When our dear Calvinist friends tell us that God never reacts he only acts, I believe we can simply respond that they happen to be mistaken on that particular point. God in his sovereign will has decided that he wants to collaborate with us in the direction of his unfolding creation and one of the mechanisms that he uses is our prayers.

You might ask, why would he do that? And the answer is I don't know. But I'm glad that he did and it's very clear that he has if you read what the Bible says about prayer.

 

[Janice Bower]

I don't mean to be misunderstood when I say the prayer works. Prayer works in so much as prayer always reaches the ears of God. We don't change God by changing how we understand him. God is immutable, That means he doesn't change. That should not be taken to mean that God doesn't change his mind in response to our prayers.

How do we understand that though, if God has exhaustive foreknowledge, and already knows about the prayers that we're going to pray? These matters can hardly be discussed without determining which perspective on God makes the best sense of what God has said about himself in the Bible. I believe that the Bible describes God in a way that can only be consistently understood from an Arminian perspective.

So, while it may be true that God knows what we're gonna pray before we pray it, he doesn't determine what we're going to pray. We can't consistently pray for something that we know God has a prior commitment to not answer. Therefore we can't pray consistently that God would slap the golden handcuffs on our children and drag them to heaven kicking and screaming.

I'm a Calvinist and I don't believe people are kicking and screaming about being saved. He changes our hearts.

We can however pray that God would use the things that we have tried to teach them to soften their hearts and incline their ears to God's great salvation. We can consistently pray that God would use us and grant us opportunities to further be used in the lives of our children to bring about their salvation in concert with their free will choice.

I appreciate this answer because I wanted to know an Arminian perspective. My late husband and I both came from dysfunctional non-Christian families ---- some members would sooner disown you than make an effort to get along.

In other words we simply need to pray in a way that is consistent with what we already know to be true about God. When our dear Calvinist friends tell us that God never reacts he only acts, I believe we can simply respond that they happen to be mistaken on that particular point. God in his sovereign will has decided that he wants to collaborate with us in the direction of his unfolding creation and one of the mechanisms that he uses is our prayers.

You might ask, why would he do that? And the answer is I don't know. But I'm glad that he did and it's very clear that he has if you read what the Bible says about prayer.

I do read my Bible. Even though I don't agree with Arminianism I certainly appreciate your kind communication.

 

[Thistle]

I'm a Calvinist and I don't believe people are kicking and screaming about being saved. He changes our hearts.

You might say that Arnimians agree with you largely but not completely. You might describe our belief as enabling Grace as opposed to irresistible grace.

I appreciate this answer because I wanted to know an Arminian perspective. My late husband and I both came from dysfunctional non-Christian families ---- some members would sooner disown you than make an effort to get along.

I can see where that would present some challenges.

I do read my Bible. Even though I don't agree with Arminianism I certainly appreciate your kind communication.

It is rather involved discussion, and if you've ever been to that part of the forum you can see that it will go on for centuries yet to come. Ultimately Calvinists and Arminians have different definitions for words like sovereignty, foreknowledge and so on. From my perspective Arminianism does not artificially shorten The time devoted to solving certain kinds of questions that are important to me. And because I've got this comparative luxury of time that I can spend it on arriving at satisfactory answers I at least think I feel more comfortable about the agreement between my theology, what I read in the Bible and the world I see around me. There are probably Calvinist so feel it's the other way around.

 

[Janice Bower]

You might say that Arnimians agree with you largely but not completely. You might describe our belief as enabling Grace as opposed to irresistible grace.

God isn't helpless to save people. Calling grace enabling didn't and doesn't save people. If He doesn't change a sinner's heart, the person has no reason to believe. Paul who was inspired by God didn't convert anyone. A person can't go kicking and screaming into heaven. That's impossible.

I'm actually not wanting to debate this. I don't think debating convinces people, but I'm not omniscient. I just don't understand the Arminian viewpoint.

1 Corinthians 3
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

I'm convinced that everything that is accomplished for God's glory is by God's will. How can it be otherwise?

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Job 42
2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

If God desires for something to happen, is He going to leave the decision to sinful men who haven't the Spirit of Christ.?

John 1
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There are two opposing forces. Who wants us to believe and who wants us to doubt?

The will of Satan is that we doubt. We are given a choice: God is saying "Believe" and Satan opposes that.

I'm nobody. No one will believe because I say, "Believe." If anyone has faith, it is a gift of God. I can't give anyone faith and Satan won't give anyone faith.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I didn't decide to have faith in Christ. I just do.

 

[Thistle]

God isn't helpless to save people.

No but he does it according to his predetermined plan and we've got to read the Bible to find out what that is.

Calling grace enabling didn't and doesn't save people.

Okay the logical equivalent of what you said here (if I understand you correctly) is that God is incapable of acting in cooperation with the moral agente has created, no matter how compelling his reasons for choosing to do so maybe. To the Arminian sensibility, that is a severe limitation on the sovereignty of God. If I misunderstood you, please feel free to correct my understanding.

If He doesn't change a sinner's heart, the person has no reason to believe.

The reasons for a sinner to love God or beyond superlative. There's no particular reason that anybody should love stamp collecting yet some people do. But the reasons to love God are beyond question. Every good and perfect thing that people have in this creation God created. No one with an ounce of sense can say that that is not a reason to love God. This universe is regulated by laws that make it particularly suitable for the kind of lives that we lead that is a superlative reason to love God. In spite of the fact that we have rebelled against God, God sent his son to die for us to redeem us and pardon us from all of our transgressions. I can think of no better reason to love God. So the idea there's no reason to love God is beyond preposterous. If we love our parents, and we love our children, and we love our aunts and uncle's, and if we love our friends, for all the reasons that we love them, the reasons that I just outlined to love God or infinitely better in every case. No miracle was required for us to love any of the foregoing.

Paul who was inspired by God didn't convert anyone.

I know you've heard people say "I was brought to Christ by so-and-so under these circumstances." What do they mean when they say that? They mean that, that person was the proximate focus of their attention when the gospel message was presented to them to the point of conversion.

"For, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved." But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!"" - Romans 10:13-15 RSV​

A person can't go kicking and screaming into heaven. That's impossible.

Because God has made a sovereign election to distribute grace in concert with the agency that he granted those who he created in his image.

I'm actually not wanting to debate this.

Me either, you had mentioned you wanted to hear the Arminian perspective, and I took that to mean how we see these things, and that's the spirit in which I've made these comments.

I don't think debating convinces people, but I'm not omniscient. I just don't understand the Arminian viewpoint.

Yes, when an Arminian says that God is "sovereign" he mean that God made a sovereign election to be sovereign in the same way that the state of Illinois is sovereign over Illinois citizens. That's quite different from the approach to sovereignty when Calvinists is explain it.

When an Arminian says that God has "foreknowledge," he means that God simply knows what is going to happen, not that God causes everything to happen. If you plug these definitions into a lot of these theological questions you'll end up with some different answers. In my view, that's the best way to understand the Arminian perspective.

1 Corinthians 3
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Right! No one is in position to brag about God's electing them for service to the kingdom.

I'm convinced that everything that is accomplished for God's glory is by God's will. How can it be otherwise?

Arminians agree with you.

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

And if God has created a criteria "in the council of his will" by which he divides those pre-destined for election from those who are not predestined for election to salvation, that too is "in this council of his will." I believe he explicitly delineates that criteria as he delineates predestination in the largest passage that addresses the subject.

"We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies;" - Romans 8:28-33 RSV​

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So the criteria is "those who love him" and we follow this dependent series of "those" which ultimately turn into "us," by the time we come to the end of the passage. Because God has perfect foreknowledge, he knows that this criteria will work for every single instance where someone's name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. So there's no problem with predestination here from the Arminian perspective.

Job 42
2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

If God desires for something to happen, is He going to leave the decision to sinful men who haven't the Spirit of Christ.?

I don't think that you're saying that God perpositively wanted Hitler to be responsible for the killing of 6 million Jews. So God in his sovereign will leaves a category for human decision. What God chooses to accomplish providentially in concert with his perfect foreknowledge of man's sovereign choices can include acts of redemption, every bit as much as any other work of God.

John 1
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ was not conceived in the human nature of Jesus of Nazareth it was conceived in the sovereign will of God the Father. We are born of that resurrection John 3 and Colossians 2:12.

There are two opposing forces. Who wants us to believe and who wants us to doubt?

The will of Satan is that we doubt. We are given a choice: God is saying "Believe" and Satan opposes that.

Amen!

I'm nobody. No one will believe because I say, "Believe." If anyone has faith, it is a gift of God. I can't give anyone faith and Satan won't give anyone faith.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I didn't decide to have faith in Christ. I just do.

Because you believed in God's free gift of redemption you determined to put your trust in it. That's what a rational person would do based on that belief.

Understand I'm not trying to correct you, I'm just giving you the Armenian perspective.

 

[Janice Bower]

No but he does it according to his predetermined plan and we've got to read the Bible to find out what that is.

I agree that we should read the Bible. In the family I grew up with, no one did.

I know you've heard people say "I was brought to Christ by so-and-so under these circumstances." What do they mean when they say that? They mean that, that person was the proximate focus of their attention when the gospel message was presented to them to the point of conversion.

No one has ever said that to me. But the Bible says that the one who preaches or shares the word doesn't do the converting.

"For, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved." But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!"" - Romans 10:13-15 RSV​

I joined the Mormon church in high school. Within a year I doubted that choice, but they told me it was my own unworthiness that caused doubts
So I stayed in it for years until God arranged events that made me read my Bible and ask the Real God (Whoever He was) to guide me.

Because God has made a sovereign election to distribute grace in concert with the agency that he granted those who he created in his image.

Me either, you had mentioned you wanted to hear the Arminian perspective, and I took that to mean how we see these things, and that's the spirit in which I've made these comments.

Yes, when an Arminian says that God is "sovereign" he mean that God made a sovereign election to be sovereign in the same way that the state of Illinois is sovereign over Illinois citizens. That's quite different from the approach to sovereignty when Calvinists is explain it.

When an Arminian says that God has "foreknowledge," he means that God simply knows what is going to happen, not that God causes everything to happen. If you plug these definitions into a lot of these theological questions you'll end up with some different answers. In my view, that's the best way to understand the Arminian perspective.

Right! No one is in position to brag about God's electing them for service to the kingdom.

Arminians agree with you.

And if God has created a criteria "in the council of his will" by which he divides those pre-destined for election from those who are not predestined for election to salvation, that too is "in this council of his will." I believe he explicitly delineates that criteria as he delineates predestination in the largest passage that addresses the subject.

"We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies;" - Romans 8:28-33 RSV​

​

So the criteria is "those who love him" and we follow this dependent series of "those" which ultimately turn into "us," by the time we come to the end of the passage. Because God has perfect foreknowledge, he knows that this criteria will work for every single instance where someone's name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. So there's no problem with predestination here from the Arminian perspective.

I don't think that you're saying that God perpositively wanted Hitler to be responsible for the killing of 6 million Jews. So God in his sovereign will leaves a category for human decision. What God chooses to accomplish providentially in concert with his perfect foreknowledge of man's sovereign choices can include acts of redemption, every bit as much as any other work of God.

The death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ was not conceived in the human nature of Jesus of Nazareth it was conceived in the sovereign will of God the Father. We are born of that resurrection John 3 and Colossians 2:12.

Amen!

Because you believed in God's free gift of redemption you determined to put your trust in it. That's what a rational person would do based on that belief.

Understand I'm not trying to correct you, I'm just giving you the Armenian perspective.

Thank you very much for your explanation. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I'm a Calvinist. My siblings are staunch non-believers. And none of us are youngsters so I'm not expecting conversions. I tried and tried and tried to get my mother to come to Christ. She just didn't believe Who He is or that she was a sinner. *shrug* She didn't care at all what the Bible said about sin or anything else.

 

[Thistle]

I agree that we should read the Bible. In the family I grew up with, no one did.


No one has ever said that to me. But the Bible says that the one who preaches or shares the word doesn't do the converting.


I joined the Mormon church in high school. Within a year I doubted that choice, but they told me it was my own unworthiness that caused doubts
So I stayed in it for years until God arranged events that made me read my Bible and ask the Real God (Whoever He was) to guide me.

Thank you very much for your explanation. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I'm a Calvinist. My siblings are staunch non-believers. And none of us are youngsters so I'm not expecting conversions. I tried and tried and tried to get my mother to come to Christ. She just didn't believe Who He is or that she was a sinner. *shrug* She didn't care at all what the Bible said about sin or anything else.

As an Arminian I believe God pays close attention to our prayers and working out his divine providential plan, so I will be remembering your mother and your siblings in my prayers.

 

[Janice Bower]

As an Arminian I believe God pays close attention to our prayers and working out his divine providential plan, so I will be remembering your mother and your siblings in my prayers.

Thank you for your kindness. Do Arminians believe that God will violate someone's free will? John 1:12-13.

My mother passed away at age 93. Her "free will" or whatever prevailed. My older sister died as a member of the LDS church (she was a Mormon in name only. She didn't know the Mormon religion very well, didn't read her Bible or the Mormon scriptures). Her husband didn't let me share Christian truths with her. He was mentally ill IMO. Two of my siblings have no contact with me (one of those two is an alcoholic). Two of my brothers who are in touch have a lot of education and are in advanced years and are staunch agnostics. Unless you are a universalist or believe that a multitude of prayers will change God's mind, I'd advise you to share the gospel with someone in your free time. You apparently haven't experienced trying to talk to college professors who are more educated than you and are convinced AGAINST Christianity and against learning from less educated people. I believe my mother poisoned my siblings' minds against the Bible. She even criticized the use of Bible names for my children and grandchildren (mostly popular ordinary N. T. names).

 

[Thistle]

Thank you for your kindness. Do Arminians believe that God will violate someone's free will? John 1:12-13.

My mother passed away at age 93. Her "free will" or whatever prevailed. My older sister died as a member of the LDS church (she was a Mormon in name only. She didn't know the Mormon religion very well, didn't read her Bible or the Mormon scriptures). Her husband didn't let me share Christian truths with her. He was mentally ill IMO. Two of my siblings have no contact with me (one of those two is an alcoholic). Two of my brothers who are in touch have a lot of education and are in advanced years and are staunch agnostics. Unless you are a universalist or believe that a multitude of prayers will change God's mind, I'd advise you to share the gospel with someone in your free time. You apparently haven't experienced trying to talk to college professors who are more educated than you and are convinced AGAINST Christianity and against learning from less educated people. I believe my mother poisoned my siblings' minds against the Bible. She even criticized the use of Bible names for my children and grandchildren (mostly popular ordinary N. T. names).

No, Armenians don't think that God will overcome someone's free will. There are a variety of ways to be an Armenian so I'll simply speak for my take on these matters. I do believe in divine for knowledge therefore God knows every prayer that I am ever going to pray even the ones that I won't think of for many years to come.

Gods for knowledge of whatever it is that I'm going to do in no way limits my freedom to do whatever I wish. God simply knows everything that can be known, and things that I will do in the future is something that can be known. At least it can be known by God.

I do find myself speaking to scientists and other people on these forums that believe they know that there's no God and so on. I do believe in Divine Providence and I think that God might bring things into these people's lives it would ultimately caused them to re-consider that position. But in the end he's not going to force anybody's hand respecting redemption. If someone is firmly committed to the apostate path, God will not revisit his sovereign choice to give them moral agency.

I'm very sorry to hear about the passing of your mother. If your mother just died, she and my mother share the same birth year.

 

[Janice Bower]

Thank you for the condolences. My mother was born in 1924. I hadn't seen her since 2004, but I called her frequently. She lived too far away for visits.

How can someone who never believed be an apostate? Are you a Mormon?

 

[Thistle]

Thank you for the condolences. My mother was born in 1924. I hadn't seen her since 2004, but I called her frequently. She lived too far away for visits.

How can someone who never believed be an apostate? Are you a Mormon?

No I'm certainly not Mormon. Yes, I guess at a technical level as we define English words someone is not an apostate if they've never been a believer. In Romans 1:20 Paul was speaking about the Hellenistic world that mostly had never heard the gospel. So the case of a person who never heard the gospel rejecting general revelation was a question that loomed pretty large.

In western civilization which is really based on our Christian past, the idea that no one is ever plausibly been confronted with the gospel in order to consider it and accepted or rejected is less plausible. So I guess context has a roll. I'm kind of using the word in a analogical sense of rejecting the roots of our civilization and that carrying on into a persons personal convictions.

But I do take your point technically speaking as we use these words in English someone who's never been a Christian can't really be an apostate. But it does seem to me that for example the "new atheists" spend a lot of time thinking about God and Christianity in particular and Christianity as it relates to Western civilization and it seems to me that they do have what I would at least analogically described to be an apostate mind.

 

[Janice Bower]

Thank you. My agnostic relatives don't know very much about the Bible and don't care; my deist late mother didn't want to know what the Bible said.